RugbyRebels

Biggar timed that shift very handily. I still think we'd have scored more points with Davies; maybe conceded a few more, too? But Dan did absolutely everything we know he can do and it'll be very, very hard to drop him after that.

I can't agree about the "good feeling". To me, defeats like this hurt a lot more than a good shoeing from a superior team. I got over last year's loss to England in the time it took to eat dinner. I'll be brooding over this one for weeks.

Nightynight wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Nightynight wrote:Really, where have you all looked at the other issues then?

All I read is coach & cuthbert and repeated, watch the try again, Davies under pressure, Welsh players jogging into position, Biggar giving up the chase.

The dreadful kick by Davies was mentioned very early on. And no one is blaming howler for missing tackles. Looking at scrumC now, I don't think Biggar had a hope of getting there.

Ultimately this is about Howley picking a player who is badly off form and looked it. Before the match most of us wanted one of the inform youngsters to be given a go. Nothing from yesterday's match has changed my opinion there.

Selective. Watch the game again and watch what the other players were doing across the park. The pundit comment on wales team switching off is also valid.

Ok, so far you have stated that the try was pre-planned - that was the most obvious example of heads up rugby from England in the game.

You have also stated that no winger would have got near Daly - you can never have played on the wing as from the start position any winger worth his salt would have covered Daly

So either this is a wum or you are not reading the game very well.

Numbers wrote:

Nightynight wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: The dreadful kick by Davies was mentioned very early on. And no one is blaming howler for missing tackles. Looking at scrumC now, I don't think Biggar had a hope of getting there.

Ultimately this is about Howley picking a player who is badly off form and looked it. Before the match most of us wanted one of the inform youngsters to be given a go. Nothing from yesterday's match has changed my opinion there.

Selective. Watch the game again and watch what the other players were doing across the park. The pundit comment on wales team switching off is also valid.

Ok, so far you have stated that the try was pre-planned - that was the most obvious example of heads up rugby from England in the game.

You have also stated that no winger would have got near Daly - you can never have played on the wing as from the start position any winger worth his salt would have covered Daly

So either this is a wum or you are not reading the game very well.

Ffffffppphhhhhh.

No, you are twisting.

Pre-planned tactic of looking to put it out to the wing against a Welsh narrow defence. Ergo why were the Welsh players slow to react after 76mins of England trying to set up the outside overlap. The only thing you can throw at the coach, bearing in mind Wales dealt with that tactic well for 76mins.... so coach or team switching off?


Once the overlap was there and the ball was passed to Daily, game over... relying on a last gasp tackle.
The mistakes were before that, it doesn't matter who was in the shirt by then. Hence my previous statements that blaming ice cream man and cuthbert is harsh, the team need to look at themselves as well. I didn't say no winger, I said north would have not even got a hand on Daily.. the other options from others ala halfpenny (paraphrase myself) wouldn't have had the speed either and talking about halfpenny or any other player other than g. North .. The actual other option in that position was straw man agruements.



Okay with that?

Nightynight wrote:

Numbers wrote:

Nightynight wrote: Selective. Watch the game again and watch what the other players were doing across the park. The pundit comment on wales team switching off is also valid.

Ok, so far you have stated that the try was pre-planned - that was the most obvious example of heads up rugby from England in the game.

You have also stated that no winger would have got near Daly - you can never have played on the wing as from the start position any winger worth his salt would have covered Daly

So either this is a wum or you are not reading the game very well.

Ffffffppphhhhhh.

No, you are twisting.

Pre-planned tactic of looking to put it out to the wing against a Welsh narrow defence. Ergo why were the Welsh players slow to react after 76mins of England trying to set up the outside overlap. The only thing you can throw at the coach, bearing in mind Wales dealt with that tactic well for 76mins.... so coach or team switching off?


Once the overlap was there and the ball was passed to Daily, game over... relying on a last gasp tackle.
The mistakes were before that, it doesn't matter who was in the shirt by then. Hence my previous statements that blaming ice cream man and cuthbert is harsh, the team need to look at themselves as well. I didn't say no winger, I said north would have not even got a hand on Daily.. the other options from others ala halfpenny (paraphrase myself) wouldn't have had the speed either and talking about halfpenny or any other player other than g. North .. The actual other option in that position was straw man agruements.



Okay with that?

Not really no, there was no overlap if Cuthbert had properly drifted.

I am not blaming the coach I am simply blaming Cuthbert for being out of position/failing to react, he was not helped by the kick which put him in that situation but the basic fact of the matter is he should have been able to cover Daly.

You didn't play in the backs did you?

Numbers wrote:

Nightynight wrote:

Numbers wrote:
Ok, so far you have stated that the try was pre-planned - that was the most obvious example of heads up rugby from England in the game.

You have also stated that no winger would have got near Daly - you can never have played on the wing as from the start position any winger worth his salt would have covered Daly

So either this is a wum or you are not reading the game very well.

Ffffffppphhhhhh.

No, you are twisting.

Pre-planned tactic of looking to put it out to the wing against a Welsh narrow defence. Ergo why were the Welsh players slow to react after 76mins of England trying to set up the outside overlap. The only thing you can throw at the coach, bearing in mind Wales dealt with that tactic well for 76mins.... so coach or team switching off?


Once the overlap was there and the ball was passed to Daily, game over... relying on a last gasp tackle.
The mistakes were before that, it doesn't matter who was in the shirt by then. Hence my previous statements that blaming ice cream man and cuthbert is harsh, the team need to look at themselves as well. I didn't say no winger, I said north would have not even got a hand on Daily.. the other options from others ala halfpenny (paraphrase myself) wouldn't have had the speed either and talking about halfpenny or any other player other than g. North .. The actual other option in that position was straw man agruements.



Okay with that?

Not really no, there was no overlap if Cuthbert had properly drifted.

I am not blaming the coach I am simply blaming Cuthbert for being out of position/failing to react, he was not helped by the kick which put him in that situation but the basic fact of the matter is he should have been able to cover Daly.

You didn't play in the backs did you?

Are you sure about cuthbert?


Was cuthbert out of position or was he holding a gap from the player to his left, Roberts and Tip's being slow coming up to position and compounded by Roberts just standing still as ford and Farrell ran to the line?

Culthbert was in a damn if you do and damn if you don't because of Roberts.


Did you play rugby?

Nightynight wrote:

Numbers wrote:

Nightynight wrote:

Ffffffppphhhhhh.

No, you are twisting.

Pre-planned tactic of looking to put it out to the wing against a Welsh narrow defence. Ergo why were the Welsh players slow to react after 76mins of England trying to set up the outside overlap. The only thing you can throw at the coach, bearing in mind Wales dealt with that tactic well for 76mins.... so coach or team switching off?


Once the overlap was there and the ball was passed to Daily, game over... relying on a last gasp tackle.
The mistakes were before that, it doesn't matter who was in the shirt by then. Hence my previous statements that blaming ice cream man and cuthbert is harsh, the team need to look at themselves as well. I didn't say no winger, I said north would have not even got a hand on Daily.. the other options from others ala halfpenny (paraphrase myself) wouldn't have had the speed either and talking about halfpenny or any other player other than g. North .. The actual other option in that position was straw man agruements.



Okay with that?

Not really no, there was no overlap if Cuthbert had properly drifted.

I am not blaming the coach I am simply blaming Cuthbert for being out of position/failing to react, he was not helped by the kick which put him in that situation but the basic fact of the matter is he should have been able to cover Daly.

You didn't play in the backs did you?

Are you sure about cuthbert?


Was cuthbert out of position or was he holding a gap from the player to his left, Roberts and Tip's being slow coming up to position and compounded by Roberts just standing still as ford and Farrell ran to the line?

You mean marking a gap, there was no player unmarked except for Daly, Roberts and Tipuric had Farrell covered, it's plain to see ffs.

Nightynight wrote:I think this is done to death.

1 Too many Welsh players in the last ruck
2 a hole the size of a mini bus on both sides despite the Welsh number for England forwards to run through at Davies. Yep a Shiite kick in field.
3 slow reaction from Wales in general apart from Dan. B running across the field ... see tip's.jogging along
4 Roberts does nothing
5 culthbert misses the last tackle


If 1-4 hadn't happened to put it down to a last gasp tackle? I maintain it's a bit harsh just to blame cuthbert or coach in these circumstances. Bearing in mind how many caps, grand slams winners, lion's touring players we are talking about here.

Roberts was covering the player who was run just the inside angle. You have noticed the English player who holds up Roberts just before the pass to Daly? If Roberts had drifted then he would have opened a huge gap, so he stuck with his man and left Cuthbert to look after his channel.

Numbers wrote:

Nightynight wrote:

Numbers wrote:
Not really no, there was no overlap if Cuthbert had properly drifted.

I am not blaming the coach I am simply blaming Cuthbert for being out of position/failing to react, he was not helped by the kick which put him in that situation but the basic fact of the matter is he should have been able to cover Daly.

You didn't play in the backs did you?

Are you sure about cuthbert?


Was cuthbert out of position or was he holding a gap from the player to his left, Roberts and Tip's being slow coming up to position and compounded by Roberts just standing still as ford and Farrell ran to the line?

You mean marking a gap, there was no player unmarked except for Daly, Roberts and Tipuric had Farrell covered, it's plain to see ffs.

Ding, wrong answer. See previous posts.

No, keeping a gap because Farrell is running at them and just running towards Daily would have given Farrell a gap to run into between them.

Post try. Where was Roberts, as far as I can see on footage still standing where he was when Farrell ran past him

Roberts target was Farrell, he didn't do anything though other than jump up and down. Target being the operative word, not stand there and watch him pass the ball. Ball beats man? As you have stated tips was there so why do nothing?


You didn't play rugby then?

Sandydragon wrote:

Nightynight wrote:I think this is done to death.

1 Too many Welsh players in the last ruck
2 a hole the size of a mini bus on both sides despite the Welsh number for England forwards to run through at Davies. Yep a Shiite kick in field.
3 slow reaction from Wales in general apart from Dan. B running across the field ... see tip's.jogging along
4 Roberts does nothing
5 culthbert misses the last tackle


If 1-4 hadn't happened to put it down to a last gasp tackle? I maintain it's a bit harsh just to blame cuthbert or coach in these circumstances. Bearing in mind how many caps, grand slams winners, lion's touring players we are talking about here.

Roberts was covering the player who was run just the inside angle. You have noticed the English player who holds up Roberts just before the pass to Daly? If Roberts had drifted then he would have opened a huge gap, so he stuck with his man and left Cuthbert to look after his channel.

Go watch the clip, plenty of red shirts to Roberts left, there was no gap behind. The player was Farrell ffs!

Nightynight wrote:

Numbers wrote:

Nightynight wrote: Are you sure about cuthbert?


Was cuthbert out of position or was he holding a gap from the player to his left, Roberts and Tip's being slow coming up to position and compounded by Roberts just standing still as ford and Farrell ran to the line?

You mean marking a gap, there was no player unmarked except for Daly, Roberts and Tipuric had Farrell covered, it's plain to see ffs.

Ding, wrong answer. See previous posts.

No, keeping a gap because Farrell is running at them and just running towards Daily would have given Farrell a gap to run into between them.

Post try. Where was Roberts, as far as I can see on footage still standing where he was when Farrell ran past him

Roberts target was Farrell, he didn't do anything though other than jump up and down. Target being the operative word, not stand there and watch him pass the ball. Ball beats man? As you have stated tips was there so why do nothing?


You didn't play rugby then?

Your being obtuse, I see no reason to continue this debate further as it is obviously pointless, I see you have stopped addressing the fact it was a pre-planned move.

In answer to your question I played third tier in England, on the wing...

Numbers wrote:

Nightynight wrote:

Numbers wrote:
You mean marking a gap, there was no player unmarked except for Daly, Roberts and Tipuric had Farrell covered, it's plain to see ffs.

Ding, wrong answer. See previous posts.

No, keeping a gap because Farrell is running at them and just running towards Daily would have given Farrell a gap to run into between them.

Post try. Where was Roberts, as far as I can see on footage still standing where he was when Farrell ran past him

Roberts target was Farrell, he didn't do anything though other than jump up and down. Target being the operative word, not stand there and watch him pass the ball. Ball beats man? As you have stated tips was there so why do nothing?


You didn't play rugby then?

Your being obtuse, I see no reason to continue this debate further as it is obviously pointless, I see you have stopped addressing the fact it was a pre-planned move.

In answer to your question I played third tier in England, on the wing...

Obtuse? Thought I was consistent actually in stating mistakes were pre-culthbert involvement. As for the pre-planned move, England were looking for overlap, by design or mistake, yes or no?



You put the argument that it was the player, I gave you reasons why, you have not answered that just walked away with a name drop which means nothing in this context having not answered the response. Obtuse?

Nightynight wrote:

Numbers wrote:

Nightynight wrote:


Ding, wrong answer. See previous posts.

No, keeping a gap because Farrell is running at them and just running towards Daily would have given Farrell a gap to run into between them.

Post try. Where was Roberts, as far as I can see on footage still standing where he was when Farrell ran past him

Roberts target was Farrell, he didn't do anything though other than jump up and down. Target being the operative word, not stand there and watch him pass the ball. Ball beats man? As you have stated tips was there so why do nothing?


You didn't play rugby then?

Your being obtuse, I see no reason to continue this debate further as it is obviously pointless, I see you have stopped addressing the fact it was a pre-planned move.

In answer to your question I played third tier in England, on the wing...

Obtuse? Thought I was consistent actually in stating mistakes were pre-culthbert involvement. As for the pre-planned move, England were looking for overlap, by design or mistake, yes or no?

Consistently obtuse.

At the point where Roberts steps back to cover Farrell, with inside cover coming across, Cuthbert has to move out to mark Daly…

It's maybe a bit harsh to be judging Cuthbert as Farrell has the ball less than 2 seconds but I really think it was awful positioning - Roberts did everything he needed to, he forced a pass, and didn't let the player through him with the ball.

Still - best 8 seconds of rugby this year!

Numbers wrote:

Nightynight wrote:

Numbers wrote:



Your being obtuse, I see no reason to continue this debate further as it is obviously pointless, I see you have stopped addressing the fact it was a pre-planned move.

In answer to your question I played third tier in England, on the wing...

Obtuse? Thought I was consistent actually in stating mistakes were pre-culthbert involvement. As for the pre-planned move, England were looking for overlap, by design or mistake, yes or no?

Consistently obtuse.

Well done.


Noted no one has answered why Roberts didn't run at Farrell with his left covered by other players, as soon as ford passed the ball?

Nightynight wrote:Once the overlap was there and the ball was passed to Daily, game over... relying on a last gasp tackle.
The mistakes were before that, it doesn't matter who was in the shirt by then. Hence my previous statements that blaming ice cream man and cuthbert is harsh, the team need to look at themselves as well. I didn't say no winger, I said north would have not even got a hand on Daily.. the other options from others ala halfpenny (paraphrase myself) wouldn't have had the speed either and talking about halfpenny or any other player other than g. North .. The actual other option in that position was straw man agruements.

No, you said "I think it was a score whoever had been in cuthberts position".

So it's not a straw man to bring up Halfpenny or in fact literally any other player.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Nightynight wrote:Once the overlap was there and the ball was passed to Daily, game over... relying on a last gasp tackle.
The mistakes were before that, it doesn't matter who was in the shirt by then. Hence my previous statements that blaming ice cream man and cuthbert is harsh, the team need to look at themselves as well. I didn't say no winger, I said north would have not even got a hand on Daily.. the other options from others ala halfpenny (paraphrase myself) wouldn't have had the speed either and talking about halfpenny or any other player other than g. North .. The actual other option in that position was straw man agruements.

No, you said "I think it was a score whoever had been in cuthberts position".

So it's not a straw man to bring up Halfpenny or in fact literally any other player.

Sorry, I meant players on the pitch... or supposed to have been in that position. And since halfpenny was nowhere near and I answered it... straw man argument still stands

Nightynight wrote:

Numbers wrote:

Nightynight wrote:

Obtuse? Thought I was consistent actually in stating mistakes were pre-culthbert involvement. As for the pre-planned move, England were looking for overlap, by design or mistake, yes or no?

Consistently obtuse.

Well done.


Noted no one has answered why Roberts didn't run at Farrell with his left covered by other players, as soon as ford passed the ball?

Because the defensive line comes up flat, he was not close enough to effect a man and ball tackle, I'm not sure why you need this explaining unless you are wumming.

Noted you are trying to nick-pick through posts as apposed to actually give reasoned arguments for your views


but it's still all cuthberts and that ice cream sales man & cuthbert fault, low hanging fruit boys. Chow!

Numbers wrote:

Nightynight wrote:

Numbers wrote:
Consistently obtuse.

Well done.


Noted no one has answered why Roberts didn't run at Farrell with his left covered by other players, as soon as ford passed the ball?

Because the defensive line comes up flat, he was not close enough to effect a man and ball tackle, I'm not sure why you need this explaining unless you are wumming.

And doing nothing was better? Please......

Nightynight wrote:

Numbers wrote:

Nightynight wrote:
Well done.


Noted no one has answered why Roberts didn't run at Farrell with his left covered by other players, as soon as ford passed the ball?

Because the defensive line comes up flat, he was not close enough to effect a man and ball tackle, I'm not sure why you need this explaining unless you are wumming.

And doing nothing was better? Please......

Yes because he was maintaining the defensive line, jesus wept.

Nightynight wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Nightynight wrote:Once the overlap was there and the ball was passed to Daily, game over... relying on a last gasp tackle.
The mistakes were before that, it doesn't matter who was in the shirt by then. Hence my previous statements that blaming ice cream man and cuthbert is harsh, the team need to look at themselves as well. I didn't say no winger, I said north would have not even got a hand on Daily.. the other options from others ala halfpenny (paraphrase myself) wouldn't have had the speed either and talking about halfpenny or any other player other than g. North .. The actual other option in that position was straw man agruements.

No, you said "I think it was a score whoever had been in cuthberts position".

So it's not a straw man to bring up Halfpenny or in fact literally any other player.

Sorry, I meant players on the pitch... or supposed to have been in that position. And since halfpenny was nowhere near and I answered it... straw man argument still stands

So actually meant George North or players who were near enough (which means no one). So you mean meant George North. Glad we've cleared that up.

I don't think you understand what straw man means.

Numbers wrote:

Nightynight wrote:

Numbers wrote:
Because the defensive line comes up flat, he was not close enough to effect a man and ball tackle, I'm not sure why you need this explaining unless you are wumming.

And doing nothing was better? Please......

Yes because he was maintaining the defensive line, jesus wept.

Wrong thing to do then, yes or no... a mistake

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Nightynight wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: No, you said "I think it was a score whoever had been in cuthberts position".

So it's not a straw man to bring up Halfpenny or in fact literally any other player.

Sorry, I meant players on the pitch... or supposed to have been in that position. And since halfpenny was nowhere near and I answered it... straw man argument still stands

So actually meant George North or players who were near enough (which means no one). So you mean meant George North. Glad we've cleared that up.

I don't think you understand what straw man means.

Yawn

Genius. Holding a defensive line? With a big gap to the right with one player in it and a number of your own players bunching to your behind/left side

Run forward or run right Or ......just stand still, I mean really ffs