RugbyRebels

I was certain that Argentina would beat us to a victory over the ABs.

Strange thing about Ireland is they've been pretty awesome for quite some time now, but just didn't produce when it counted most - at last year's Rugby World Cup. That's got to be their next assignment, a first ever berth in the World Cup semi-finals.

rowan wrote:Strange thing about Ireland is they've been pretty awesome for quite some time now, but just didn't produce when it counted most - at last year's Rugby World Cup. That's got to be their next assignment, a first ever berth in the World Cup semi-finals.

we're often shite too. it's always a surprise watching us.

Ireland were on a hiding to nothing going into that quarterfinal with Argentina, having lost 1/3 of their starting XV. Let's put it this way - would the All Blacks have won the world cup last year without all of McCaw, Carter, Kaino, Nonu and Whitelock? That's what Ireland had to work with, and they did well to get as close as the did during the game.

Kiss me if I'm wrong, but I believe this was the first time a nation had beaten New Zealand for the first time since France in 1954. Certainly a first in my life-time anyway. I'm not quite that old!!

Btw, they made a play about Munster's 1978 victory over the ABs. I guess yesterday's victory will become an epic movie...

Of the 4 World Cup-winning nations, we find New Zealand has still lost to the least amount of opposing national teams (6), England just two more with 8, South Africa dropped to third last year with 9, and Australia is a distant 4th with 11. Also, only 4 nations, SA, Australia, England & France have ever beaten the All Blacks in NZ.

NZ has lost to: Australia 42 times, SA 35, France 12, England 7, Wales 3 & Ireland once.
England has lost to Wales 57 times, Ireland 47, Scotland 42, France 39, NZ 32, Australia 25, SA 23 and Argentina 4 times.
SA has lost to NZ 55 times, Australia 36, England 12, France 11, Ireland 6, Scotland 5, Wales & Argentina twice each, & Japan once.
Australia has lost to NZ 109 times, SA 46, England 21, France 18, Wales & Ireland 10 each, Scotland 9, Argentina 5, Fiji twice & Samoa and Tonga once apiece.

Funny. I just logged on to post pretty much what Rowan has said (but without that weird kissing thing). Ka pai, Rowan.

The only additional comment I was going to make was that I hadn't previously twigged that the last time Wales beat NZ, France was yet to do so (although their first time was on the same tour, during which we also lost to Cardiff, drew with Swansea and Ulster, and lost to South-West France, but won the other 30 matches.)

Only France and South Africa have scored 40+ against the All Blacks. Both have done so twice.

So for completeness...

First/last test wins against the All Blacks:
Ireland: 2016/2016
World XV: 1992/1992
France: 1954/2009
England: 1936/2012
Lions: 1930*/1993
South Africa: 1921/2014
Australia: 1910/2015
Wales: 1905/1953

*Playing as "Great Britain"

Argentina isn't far away, given the advantage of a guaranteed two tests per year against the All Blacks. & Ireland's success might just have given them a psychological boost as well. Even the All Blacks can have a bad day at the office once in a while.

Yes, I would have bet on Argentina being next to beat us before Ireland.

Wow, Wednesday already - and just 22,978 days since Wales last beat the All Blacks...

Be fair. It's only 22,971.

I saw I good tweet the other day; "No one beats Ireland 29 times in a row"*

Inspired by that thought:

Most tests against the All Blacks without a win:
30 Scotland (2 draws)
24 Argentina (1 draw)
Italy 12
Samoa 6
Canada, Fiji, Tonga 5 each
Japan, USA 3 each
Romania 2
Georgia, Namibia, Pacific Islanders, Portugal 1 each



*Of course that was never really on the cards given the draw in 1973, meaning the winning streak was only 22

Maybe Scotland and Argentina should ask to play them in Chicago

rowan wrote:Maybe Scotland and Argentina should ask to play them in Chicago

Our record in non-RWC matches on neutral ground is pretty poor (50%), so it might be a good idea for them!

2008 v AUS, Hong Kong, W
2009 v AUS, Tokyo, W
2010 v AUS, Hong Kong, L
2016 v IRE, Chicago, L

I can see it being a realistic option for Argentina - they've already played one RC match at Twickenham. I'm not sure that Scotland would be a sufficient draw card anywhere else to make it an economic proposition.

It's not so long ago that Ireland were where Scotland is now - and Wales before that. & Scotland very nearly made the semis of the last World Cup, let's remember. So while they don't look remotely threatening to the All Blacks even on their home patch at present, who knows how things will stand a decade from now? The real danger comes, of course, when you start to write teams off...

Were Ireland ever as much in the doldrums as Scotland?

My view is based not just on the likely quality of the rugby though. Ireland in Chicago has a certain resonance due to the propensity of Americans to feel kinship with the Irish. I'm not aware of any significant Scottish diaspora in a country that could viably host a top level test match.

Lizard wrote:Were Ireland ever as much in the doldrums as Scotland?

We (Scotland) had some decent periods against 5 nations opposition particularly in the 80's/90's

From 1986 - 1999 Scotland played Ireland 15 times, won 13 & drew 1
and versus Wales (1981 - 1999) played 19 won 11 including Cardiff wins in '82, '84 and '90 (Thorburns 70m kick kyboshing the '86 game for us!)
France won at Murrayfield in 1978 but it wouldn't be until 1994 that they did so again.

Grand Slams in 1984 & 1990. Last game stumbles (against England) costing another two in 1995 & 1996 likewise last day defeats at Twickenham costing Triple Crowns (Eng/Wal/Ire) in 1987 and 1993

Thought we had the All Blacks in Auckland in 1990.....but then a hail shower, Derek Bevan and Grant Fox happened.

Them were the days

Our most recent 'turned to sh1t' period coincided with Italy's arrival and with it a convenient annual "battle for the wooden spoon" moniker.

Lizard wrote:Were Ireland ever as much in the doldrums as Scotland?

My view is based not just on the likely quality of the rugby though. Ireland in Chicago has a certain resonance due to the propensity of Americans to feel kinship with the Irish. I'm not aware of any significant Scottish diaspora in a country that could viably host a top level test match.

As I recall, Ireland were rooted to the bottom of the 5 Nations table for much of the late 80s and 90s, with only the demise of Wales in the latter decade sparing their blushes entirely. In fact, during that period - late 80s/90s - they were 0-13 against France, 1-12 against Scotland , 2-10 against England, and 6-6 against Wales. They also picked up the wooden spoon a few times, of course. Meanwhile they lost 15 straight tests against the SANZAR giants, with the All Blacks topping 60 against them in Dublin in '97, they were 2-3 versus Italy and 2-1 versus up-and-coming Argentina, they got hammered 40-15 in Samoa and lost a series 2-0 in Namibia.

I'm not sure even Scotland has plummeted to quite the same depths in the past decade-and-a-half...

Fair enough. I certainly recalled Scotland being handy in the 80s, but I didn't remember Ireland being that bad. A gap in my knowledge has been filled.

Lizard wrote:Fair enough. I certainly recalled Scotland being handy in the 80s, but I didn't remember Ireland being that bad. A gap in my knowledge has been filled.

We were really really bad.

Amazing thing about Ireland is their remarkable consistency at the World Cup. They've qualified from the group stages at 7/8 tournaments but never won a single game beyond the group stages, being eliminated at the next stage (6 QFs & 1 repechage) on each occasion. They were runners-up in their group at the first four World Cups, dipped to third in 2007, and finished top in 2011 & 2015.

Ireland have set a record winning streak against the All Blacks and could extend it this weekend.

Longest Winning Streaks v NZ
South Africa: 6 (1937-1949)
Australia: 3 (1929, equaled 2000-01)
France: 3 (1994-95)
Wales: 2 (1935-1953)
England: 2 (2002-03)
Lions: 1 (1930, equaled 1959, twice in 1971, 1977 & 1993)
Ireland: 1 (2016)

6 NATIONS VS NZ, since 2000(Wikipedia)
I chose 2000 randomly as a starting date.

England 17 Games, NZ won 14, England won 3

8 November 2014 Twickenham, London 21 – 24 New Zealand 2014 Autumn International
21 June 2014 Waikato Stadium, Hamilton 36 – 13 New Zealand 2014 England tour of New Zealand
14 June 2014 Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin 28 – 27 New Zealand
7 June 2014 Eden Park, Auckland 20 – 15 New Zealand
16 November 2013 Twickenham, London 22 – 30 New Zealand 2013 Autumn International
1 December 2012 Twickenham, London 38 – 21 England 2012 Autumn International
6 November 2010 Twickenham, London 16 – 26 New Zealand 2010 Autumn International
21 November 2009 Twickenham, London 6 – 19 New Zealand 2009 Autumn International
29 November 2008 Twickenham, London 6 – 32 New Zealand 2008 Autumn International
21 June 2008 AMI Stadium, Christchurch 44– 12 New Zealand English tour of New Zealand
14 June 2008 Eden Park, Auckland 37– 20 New Zealand
5 November 2006 Twickenham, London 20 – 41 New Zealand 2005 Autumn International
19 November 2005 Twickenham, London 19 – 23 New Zealand 2005 New Zealand Grand Slam Tour
219 June 2004 Eden Park, Auckland 36 – 12 New Zealand 2004 English Tour of Australia
12 June 2004 Carisbrook, Dunedin 36 – 3 New Zealand
14 June 2003 Westpac Stadium, Wellington 13 – 15 England 2003 English Tour of Australia
9 November 2002 Twickenham, London 31 – 28 England 2002 Autumn International



France 22 Games, NZ won 18, France won 3, Draw 1.

17 October 2015 Millennium Stadium, Cardiff, Wales 62 – 13 New Zealand 2015 Rugby World Cup Quarter-final
9 November 2013 Stade de France, Saint-Denis 19 – 26 New Zealand 2013 end-of year test TG
22 June 2013 Yarrow Stadium, New Plymouth 24 – 9 New Zealand 2013 French tour to New Zealand BBC
15 June 2013 Rugby League Park, Christchurch 30 – 0 New Zealand BBC
8 June 2013 Eden Park, Auckland 23 – 13 New Zealand ABC
23 October 2011 Eden Park, Auckland 8 – 7 New Zealand 2011 Rugby World Cup Final BBC
24 September 2011 Eden Park, Auckland 37 – 17 New Zealand 2011 Rugby World Cup BBC
28 November 2009 Stade Vélodrome, Marseilles 12 – 39 New Zealand 2009 end of year rugby union tests BBC
20 June 2009 Westpac Stadium, Wellington 14 – 10 New Zealand 2009 mid-year rugby union tests BBC
13 June 2009 Carisbrook, Dunedin 22 – 27 France BBC
6 October 2007 Millennium Stadium, Cardiff, Wales 18 – 20 France 2007 Rugby World Cup BBC
9 June 2007 Westpac Stadium, Wellington 61 – 10 New Zealand 2007 mid-year rugby union tests BBC
2 June 2007 Eden Park, Auckland 42 – 11 New Zealand TG
18 November 2006 Stade de France, Saint-Denis 11 – 23 New Zealand 2006 end of year rugby union tests BBC
11 November 2006 Stade de Gerland, Lyon 3 – 47 New Zealand BBC
27 November 2004 Stade de France, Saint-Denis 6 – 45 New Zealand 2004 end of year rugby union tests BBC
20 November 2003 Stadium Australia, Sydney, Australia 40 – 13 New Zealand 2003 Rugby World Cup BBC
28 June 2003 Jade Stadium, Christchurch 31 – 23 New Zealand 2003 French tour BBC
16 November 2002 Stade de France, Saint-Denis 20 – 20 draw 2002 New Zealand tour of Europe BBC
30 June 2001 WestpacTrust Stadium, Wellington 37 – 12 New Zealand 2001 French tour BBC
18 November 2000 Stade Vélodrome, Marseilles 42 – 33 France 2000 end of year test BBC
11 November 2000 Stade de France, Saint-Denis 26 – 39 New Zealand


Ireland 15 Games, NZ won 14, Ireland won 1

5 November 2016 Soldier Field, Chicago, United States 40 – 29 Ireland
24 November 2013 Aviva Stadium, Dublin 22 – 24 New Zealand 2013 Autumn International
23 June 2012 Waikato Stadium, Hamilton 60 – 0 New Zealand 2012 Irish tour of New Zealand
16 June 2012 Rugby League Park, Christchurch 22 – 19 New Zealand
9 June 2012 Eden Park, Auckland 42 – 10 New Zealand
20 November 2010 Aviva Stadium, Dublin 18 – 38 New Zealand 2010 Autumn International
12 June 2010 Yarrow Stadium, New Plymouth 66 – 28 New Zealand 2010 Irish tour
15 November 2008 Croke Park, Dublin 3 – 22 New Zealand 2008 Autumn International
7 June 2008 Westpac Stadium, Wellington 21 – 11 New Zealand 2008 Irish tour
17 June 2006 Eden Park, Auckland 27 – 17 New Zealand 2006 Irish tour
10 June 2006 Waikato Stadium, Hamilton 34 – 23 New Zealand
12 November 2005 Lansdowne Road, Dublin 7 – 45 New Zealand 2005 All Blacks grand slam tour
22 June 2002 Eden Park, Auckland 40 – 8 New Zealand 2002 Irish tour of New Zealand
15 June 2002 Carisbrook, Dunedin 15 – 6 New Zealand
17 November 2001 Lansdowne Road, Dublin 29 – 40 New Zealand


Italy 9 Games. NZ won 9.
12 November 2016 Stadio Olimpico, Rome 10 – 68 New Zealand 2016 end-of-year internationals
17 November 2012 Stadio Olimpico, Rome 10 – 42 New Zealand 2012 end-of-year internationals
14 November 2009 San Siro Stadium, Milan 6 – 20 New Zealand 2009 end-of-year internationals
27 June 2009 AMI Stadium, Christchurch 27 – 6 New Zealand 2009 mid-year internationals
8 September 2007 Stade Vélodrome, Marseille 76 – 14 New Zealand 2007 Rugby World Cup
13 November 2004 Stadio Flaminio, Rome 10 – 59 New Zealand 2004 end-of-year internationals
11 October 2003 Colonial Stadium, Melbourne, Australia 70 – 7 New Zealand 2003 Rugby World Cup
8 June 2002 Waikato Stadium, Hamilton 64 – 10 New Zealand 2002 Italy rugby union tour
25 November 2000 Stadio Luigi Ferraris, Genoa 19 – 56 New Zealand 2000 end-of-year internationals

Scotland 9 Games. NZ won 9

15 November 2014 Murrayfield, Edinburgh 16 – 24 New Zealand 2014 Autumn International
11 November 2012 Murrayfield, Edinburgh 22 – 51 New Zealand 2012 Autumn International
13 November 2010 Murrayfield, Edinburgh 3 – 49 New Zealand 2010 end of year rugby tests
8 November 2008 Murrayfield, Edinburgh 6 – 32 New Zealand 2008 end of year rugby tests
23 September 2007 Murrayfield, Edinburgh 0 – 40 New Zealand 2007 Rugby World Cup Pool Match
26 November 2005 Murrayfield, Edinburgh 10 – 29 New Zealand 2005 end of year rugby union tests
24 November 2001 Murrayfield, Edinburgh 6 – 37 New Zealand
1 July 2000 Eden Park, Auckland 48 – 14 New Zealand 2000 Scotland rugby union tour of New Zealand
24 June 2000 Carisbrook, Dunedin 69 – 20 New Zealand

Wales 16 Games. NZ won 16.

25 June 2016 Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin 46 – 6 New Zealand Welsh tour of New Zealand
18 June 2016 Westpac Stadium, Wellington 36 – 22 New Zealand
11 June 2016 Eden Park, Auckland 39 – 21 New Zealand
22 November 2014 Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 16 – 34 New Zealand 2014 Autumn International
24 November 2012 Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 10 – 33 New Zealand 2012 Autumn International
27 November 2010 Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 25 – 37 New Zealand 2010 Autumn International BBC
26 June 2010 Waikato Stadium, Hamilton 29 – 10 New Zealand 2010 mid-year rugby test series
19 June 2010 Carisbrook, Dunedin 42 – 9 New Zealand Stuff
7 November 2009 Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 12 – 19 New Zealand 2009 Autumn International BBC
22 November 2008 Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 9 – 29 New Zealand 2008 Autumn International BBC
25 November 2006 Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 10 – 45 New Zealand 2006 Autumn International BBC
5 November 2005 Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 3 – 41 New Zealand 2005 Autumn International BBC
20 November 2004 Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 25 – 26 New Zealand 2004 Autumn International BBC
2 November 2003 Stadium Australia, Sydney, Australia 53 – 37 New Zealand 2003 Rugby World Cup BBC
23 June 2003 Waikato Stadium, Hamilton 55 – 3 New Zealand 2003 Wales rugby union tour of Australasia
23 November 2002 Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 17 – 43 New Zealand 2002 Autumn International

By popular request:

Foreign-born, "English" players* this year:
Four New Zealanders - Hartley, Harrison, Te'o and M. Vunipola
Two Fijians: Rokoduguni and Hughes
One Aussie: B. Vunipola
One St Lucian: Yarde

8/34=23.5%


*By which I mean players named in the EPS for this year (Source: Wikipedia)