RugbyRebels

Except it's stated in the euro regulations that they must be part of the regular squad.

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:

Banquo wrote: I said 'not far off', but short to mid term yes. Their academy is producing a lot of goods, and their team and its success house the core of the England team and expose them to a higher quality of (winning) rugby in Europe. If competitive = more mediocre sides in with a chance, then that's not great.

Tangentially, the salary cap may have levelled ish the field in England, but likely made it harder for some sides to compete in Europe when combined with the attritional nature of AP rugby and sheer weight of fixtures.

I still don't get how any of this makes up for the huge disadvantage that Saracen's financial doping has imposed upon the other clubs in the Premiership. I get that their academy is producing some real quality, but does that justify their cheating and putting everyone else out of contention? For all that you suggest Leinster are buckets of cash, they have hardly enjoyed the domestic monopoly that Saracens have enjoyed. Scarlets, Glasgow and especially Connacht have all been able to make a good fist of winning the Pro14 in the last few years. How might Exeter and their fans feel if there was not the grinding annual inevitability of Saracens winning yet another grand final?

Competitive does not = mediocrity.

The Glasgow example is quite pertinent (Connacht may be too). They had a talented crop of youngsters come through together and mature into a title winning team. That team has been dismantled as contracts came up for renewal and the SRU couldn't afford to keep them all with Nakarawa, then Russell and then Hogg moving on. The difference is that Sarries didn't lack budget, their constraint should have been the salary cap.

Raggs wrote:Except it's stated in the euro regulations that they must be part of the regular squad.

Define regular? I know you have to be registered at a club to stop ringers, but does that mean you'd automatically be captured by the cap?

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:

Banquo wrote: I said 'not far off', but short to mid term yes. Their academy is producing a lot of goods, and their team and its success house the core of the England team and expose them to a higher quality of (winning) rugby in Europe. If competitive = more mediocre sides in with a chance, then that's not great.

Tangentially, the salary cap may have levelled ish the field in England, but likely made it harder for some sides to compete in Europe when combined with the attritional nature of AP rugby and sheer weight of fixtures.

I still don't get how any of this makes up for the huge disadvantage that Saracen's financial doping has imposed upon the other clubs in the Premiership. I get that their academy is producing some real quality, but does that justify their cheating and putting everyone else out of contention? For all that you suggest Leinster are buckets of cash, they have hardly enjoyed the domestic monopoly that Saracens have enjoyed. Scarlets, Glasgow and especially Connacht have all been able to make a good fist of winning the Pro14 in the last few years. How might Exeter and their fans feel if there was not the grinding annual inevitability of Saracens winning yet another grand final?

Competitive does not = mediocrity.

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth; I’m not trying to justify anything, I’ve condemned how they have got to where they have got. However what they have built- a top class club side consistently beating the best ‘franchises’ in Europe, with its own facilities, a very strong academy, a community school, links with the community, and kind of a finishing school for a lot of the national team would be hugely missed short and mid term. For me, they were the windmill that other clubs could tilt at- but I accept (subject to appeal) that all this has been built on sand.

I’m not convinced that if you divide sarries squad by 11 say and distributed across the AP you’d substantially raise the quality of the comp, but you would give more a chance of winning the title, but tbh Exeter have been within a gnats in any case.

I didn’t mention Leinster, nor can I comment expertly on the Pro 14 as I don’t really follow it; as an amateur observer it seems to me that those sides who are competitive at the top European table don’t put much priority into the pro 14, hence the number of sides that are competitive is as you describe.

Banquo wrote:

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:

Banquo wrote: I said 'not far off', but short to mid term yes. Their academy is producing a lot of goods, and their team and its success house the core of the England team and expose them to a higher quality of (winning) rugby in Europe. If competitive = more mediocre sides in with a chance, then that's not great.

Tangentially, the salary cap may have levelled ish the field in England, but likely made it harder for some sides to compete in Europe when combined with the attritional nature of AP rugby and sheer weight of fixtures.

I still don't get how any of this makes up for the huge disadvantage that Saracen's financial doping has imposed upon the other clubs in the Premiership. I get that their academy is producing some real quality, but does that justify their cheating and putting everyone else out of contention? For all that you suggest Leinster are buckets of cash, they have hardly enjoyed the domestic monopoly that Saracens have enjoyed. Scarlets, Glasgow and especially Connacht have all been able to make a good fist of winning the Pro14 in the last few years. How might Exeter and their fans feel if there was not the grinding annual inevitability of Saracens winning yet another grand final?

Competitive does not = mediocrity.

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth; I’m not trying to justify anything, I’ve condemned how they have got to where they have got. However what they have built- a top class club side consistently beating the best ‘franchises’ in Europe, with its own facilities, a very strong academy, a community school, links with the community, and kind of a finishing school for a lot of the national team would be hugely missed short and mid term. For me, they were the windmill that other clubs could tilt at- but I accept (subject to appeal) that all this has been built on sand.

I’m not convinced that if you divide sarries squad by 11 say and distributed across the AP you’d substantially raise the quality of the comp, but you would give more a chance of winning the title, but tbh Exeter have been within a gnats in any case.

I didn’t mention Leinster, nor can I comment expertly on the Pro 14 as I don’t really follow it; as an amateur observer it seems to me that those sides who are competitive at the top European table don’t put much priority into the pro 14, hence the number of sides that are competitive is as you describe.

If you took out Koch, Skelton, Clark, Willemse, Lozowski, Daly, Maitland, and Williams...and replaced them with a mix of kids and Prem quality players, you could probably get that squad down to around the cap level.

It's not a shame, it's incessant cheating.

Sarries have been hit hardest this WC for a reason and it's not because they had 9 England players. It's because they also had 8 other players they bought in who played for other nations.

And of those 9 England players, 2 of them have just been hoovered up from other clubs. And that's just this season.

It's incessant cheating.

If Sarries didn't buy Willemse, Lozowski, Daly, Maitland, Williams, Koch, Skelton, Clark, Rhodes, to name just a few, we could have seen more minutes for Kpoku, Earl, Gallagher, Tompkins. And who knows who else...

And England players who didn't play for Sarries could have got to finals and semi-finals more often.

Or had more chance at it.

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:
I still don't get how any of this makes up for the huge disadvantage that Saracen's financial doping has imposed upon the other clubs in the Premiership. I get that their academy is producing some real quality, but does that justify their cheating and putting everyone else out of contention? For all that you suggest Leinster are buckets of cash, they have hardly enjoyed the domestic monopoly that Saracens have enjoyed. Scarlets, Glasgow and especially Connacht have all been able to make a good fist of winning the Pro14 in the last few years. How might Exeter and their fans feel if there was not the grinding annual inevitability of Saracens winning yet another grand final?

Competitive does not = mediocrity.

You are putting a lot of words in my mouth; I’m not trying to justify anything, I’ve condemned how they have got to where they have got. However what they have built- a top class club side consistently beating the best ‘franchises’ in Europe, with its own facilities, a very strong academy, a community school, links with the community, and kind of a finishing school for a lot of the national team would be hugely missed short and mid term. For me, they were the windmill that other clubs could tilt at- but I accept (subject to appeal) that all this has been built on sand.

I’m not convinced that if you divide sarries squad by 11 say and distributed across the AP you’d substantially raise the quality of the comp, but you would give more a chance of winning the title, but tbh Exeter have been within a gnats in any case.

I didn’t mention Leinster, nor can I comment expertly on the Pro 14 as I don’t really follow it; as an amateur observer it seems to me that those sides who are competitive at the top European table don’t put much priority into the pro 14, hence the number of sides that are competitive is as you describe.

If you took out Koch, Skelton, Clark, Willemse, Lozowski, Daly, Maitland, and Williams...and replaced them with a mix of kids and Prem quality players, you could probably get that squad down to around the cap level.

It's not a shame, it's incessant cheating.

Sarries have been hit hardest this WC for a reason and it's not because they had 9 England players. It's because they also had 8 other players they bought in who played for other nations.

And of those 9 England players, 2 of them have just been hoovered up from other clubs. And that's just this season.

It's incessant cheating.

If Sarries didn't buy Willemse, Lozowski, Daly, Maitland, Williams, Koch, Skelton, Clark, Rhodes, to name just a few, we could have seen more minutes for Kpoku, Earl, Gallagher, Tompkins. And who knows who else...

And England players who didn't play for Sarries could have got to finals and semi-finals more often.

Or had more chance at it.

Is it incessant cheating in your opinion?

I'm not disagreeing at all- hence using the word condemn, just pointing out what will be lost if/when they fold.

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:
You are putting a lot of words in my mouth; I’m not trying to justify anything, I’ve condemned how they have got to where they have got. However what they have built- a top class club side consistently beating the best ‘franchises’ in Europe, with its own facilities, a very strong academy, a community school, links with the community, and kind of a finishing school for a lot of the national team would be hugely missed short and mid term. For me, they were the windmill that other clubs could tilt at- but I accept (subject to appeal) that all this has been built on sand.

I’m not convinced that if you divide sarries squad by 11 say and distributed across the AP you’d substantially raise the quality of the comp, but you would give more a chance of winning the title, but tbh Exeter have been within a gnats in any case.

I didn’t mention Leinster, nor can I comment expertly on the Pro 14 as I don’t really follow it; as an amateur observer it seems to me that those sides who are competitive at the top European table don’t put much priority into the pro 14, hence the number of sides that are competitive is as you describe.

If you took out Koch, Skelton, Clark, Willemse, Lozowski, Daly, Maitland, and Williams...and replaced them with a mix of kids and Prem quality players, you could probably get that squad down to around the cap level.

It's not a shame, it's incessant cheating.

Sarries have been hit hardest this WC for a reason and it's not because they had 9 England players. It's because they also had 8 other players they bought in who played for other nations.

And of those 9 England players, 2 of them have just been hoovered up from other clubs. And that's just this season.

It's incessant cheating.

If Sarries didn't buy Willemse, Lozowski, Daly, Maitland, Williams, Koch, Skelton, Clark, Rhodes, to name just a few, we could have seen more minutes for Kpoku, Earl, Gallagher, Tompkins. And who knows who else...

And England players who didn't play for Sarries could have got to finals and semi-finals more often.

Or had more chance at it.

Is it incessant cheating in your opinion?

I'm not disagreeing at all- hence using the word condemn, just pointing out what will be lost if/when they fold.

What makes it not incessant cheating?

It's cheating. I think everyone can agree on that.

And it's continued without pause for years. So it's incessant.

We've been talking about Sarries and the salary cap for years.

If they did fold, why couldn't their reach be taken over by another club? With LI moving back to London, they'd love to move their catchment area back to something more like their traditional base. And with Ealing on the rise, that's another.

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:
If you took out Koch, Skelton, Clark, Willemse, Lozowski, Daly, Maitland, and Williams...and replaced them with a mix of kids and Prem quality players, you could probably get that squad down to around the cap level.

It's not a shame, it's incessant cheating.

Sarries have been hit hardest this WC for a reason and it's not because they had 9 England players. It's because they also had 8 other players they bought in who played for other nations.

And of those 9 England players, 2 of them have just been hoovered up from other clubs. And that's just this season.

It's incessant cheating.

If Sarries didn't buy Willemse, Lozowski, Daly, Maitland, Williams, Koch, Skelton, Clark, Rhodes, to name just a few, we could have seen more minutes for Kpoku, Earl, Gallagher, Tompkins. And who knows who else...

And England players who didn't play for Sarries could have got to finals and semi-finals more often.

Or had more chance at it.

Is it incessant cheating in your opinion?

I'm not disagreeing at all- hence using the word condemn, just pointing out what will be lost if/when they fold.

What makes it not incessant cheating?

It's cheating. I think everyone can agree on that.

And it's continued without pause for years. So it's incessant.

We've been talking about Sarries and the salary cap for years.

If they did fold, why couldn't their reach be taken over by another club? With LI moving back to London, they'd love to move their catchment area back to something more like their traditional base. And with Ealing on the rise, that's another.

Oh the joys of the internet. You said it was incessant cheating twice within four sentences, that's what I highlighted, by way of humour. I then said I didn't disagree that it was cheating, having previously condemned it. Settle petal, as the aussies might say.

The two clubs you mention are unlikely to have the cash flow backing that Sarries had. I think what Sarries have built-on sand- is not replicable in the short to mid term (its taken them years), I may be wrong.

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:
Is it incessant cheating in your opinion?

I'm not disagreeing at all- hence using the word condemn, just pointing out what will be lost if/when they fold.

What makes it not incessant cheating?

It's cheating. I think everyone can agree on that.

And it's continued without pause for years. So it's incessant.

We've been talking about Sarries and the salary cap for years.

If they did fold, why couldn't their reach be taken over by another club? With LI moving back to London, they'd love to move their catchment area back to something more like their traditional base. And with Ealing on the rise, that's another.

Oh the joys of the internet. You said it was incessant cheating twice within four sentences, that's what I highlighted, by way of humour. I then said I didn't disagree that it was cheating, having previously condemned it. Settle petal, as the aussies might say.

The two clubs you mention are unlikely to have the cash flow backing that Sarries had. I think what Sarries have built-on sand- is not replicable in the short to mid term (its taken them years), I may be wrong.

Well, sorry for missing your abstraction :p

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:
What makes it not incessant cheating?

It's cheating. I think everyone can agree on that.

And it's continued without pause for years. So it's incessant.

We've been talking about Sarries and the salary cap for years.

If they did fold, why couldn't their reach be taken over by another club? With LI moving back to London, they'd love to move their catchment area back to something more like their traditional base. And with Ealing on the rise, that's another.

Oh the joys of the internet. You said it was incessant cheating twice within four sentences, that's what I highlighted, by way of humour. I then said I didn't disagree that it was cheating, having previously condemned it. Settle petal, as the aussies might say.

The two clubs you mention are unlikely to have the cash flow backing that Sarries had. I think what Sarries have built-on sand- is not replicable in the short to mid term (its taken them years), I may be wrong.

Well, sorry for missing your abstraction :p

There were more obvious condemnations you missed in your eagerness to stick the ball in the net

Digby wrote:

Raggs wrote:Except it's stated in the euro regulations that they must be part of the regular squad.

Define regular? I know you have to be registered at a club to stop ringers, but does that mean you'd automatically be captured by the cap?

Surely it would be a decision that Prem Rugby could make unilaterally as the cap isn't regulated across Europe.

They could, for example, say that each club is allowed four "European Cup" players who can only play a limited number of Premiership games (and not in the semi / final?).

However this would be to the benefit of a limited number of clubs and would mean salary inflation so I don't see the organisation voting for it.

switchskier wrote:

SerjeantWildgoose wrote:

Banquo wrote: I said 'not far off', but short to mid term yes. Their academy is producing a lot of goods, and their team and its success house the core of the England team and expose them to a higher quality of (winning) rugby in Europe. If competitive = more mediocre sides in with a chance, then that's not great.

Tangentially, the salary cap may have levelled ish the field in England, but likely made it harder for some sides to compete in Europe when combined with the attritional nature of AP rugby and sheer weight of fixtures.

I still don't get how any of this makes up for the huge disadvantage that Saracen's financial doping has imposed upon the other clubs in the Premiership. I get that their academy is producing some real quality, but does that justify their cheating and putting everyone else out of contention? For all that you suggest Leinster are buckets of cash, they have hardly enjoyed the domestic monopoly that Saracens have enjoyed. Scarlets, Glasgow and especially Connacht have all been able to make a good fist of winning the Pro14 in the last few years. How might Exeter and their fans feel if there was not the grinding annual inevitability of Saracens winning yet another grand final?

Competitive does not = mediocrity.

The Glasgow example is quite pertinent (Connacht may be too). They had a talented crop of youngsters come through together and mature into a title winning team. That team has been dismantled as contracts came up for renewal and the SRU couldn't afford to keep them all with Nakarawa, then Russell and then Hogg moving on. The difference is that Sarries didn't lack budget, their constraint should have been the salary cap.

Furthemore Leinster effectively do what we are suggesting for Sarries - the big hitters like Sexton play very few Pro 14 games...

Given the restrictions on Premiership games for EPS players, those at Sarries will probably play more European than Premiership games this season anyway.

On the subject of Europe, Sarries have also been given a €50k fine by EPCR for failing to turn up at the launch yesterday

Peej wrote:Given the restrictions on Premiership games for EPS players, those at Sarries will probably play more European than Premiership games this season anyway.

On the subject of Europe, Sarries have also been given a €50k fine by EPCR for failing to turn up at the launch yesterday

Not if they need to fight for every Prem point they can get their hands on.

Which Tyler wrote:

Peej wrote:Given the restrictions on Premiership games for EPS players, those at Sarries will probably play more European than Premiership games this season anyway.

On the subject of Europe, Sarries have also been given a €50k fine by EPCR for failing to turn up at the launch yesterday

Not if they need to fight for every Prem point they can get their hands on.

Well that's the odd thing isn't it? They are supposed to rest the players - but as we have seen before with Mako, they are happy to flout the conventions on rest periods. And if needs must, they almost certainly will.

Having watched the Nigel Wray interview yesterday I don’t get the feeling he’s for walking away any time soon.

Also in terms of their cap space, you wonder if the damage hasn’t already been done, so to speak. If Wray has already pumped in a load of capital to get these businesses off the ground, and now the likes of the Vunipolas, Farrell etc have lucrative property investments and assets how is that accounted for moving forwards?

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Sarries keep the vast bulk of their squad together for a while yet...and potentially win a bunch more trophies. Would be typically Saracens.

Lots and lots of noise coming from Glaws, their supporters and people like Walkinshaw. Got to back that up by winning.......

Epaminondas Pules wrote:Lots and lots of noise coming from Glaws, their supporters and people like Walkinshaw. Got to back that up by winning.......

Glaws have been noisy for a long time, winning doesn't seem to be much of a driver to their volume

Think we may be seeing why this wasn't chased much in the press previously, seems like numerous rugby writers are actually backing sarries or at least doing some vague hand waving.

Apologies for what I'm about to write, but thank goodness for the daily mail.

A bit like this - https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ugby-union

Rees make one or two fair points but fails to acknowledge the extent of Saracens cheating.

Is it OK to break the rules if the club can provide players to England?

For the majority of fans that's very likely a yes. England has way more fans than 11 AP clubs

Edit - I'm unfairly assuming there all Sarries fans will be content with their brazen cheating

I love that he argues that 4 came through their academy. As if that's some huge achievement.

Wasps have got 3 academy boys there. Don't even want to guess how many Irish. Numerous Leicester I'm sure.

The difference isn't how many they've got, it's that unlike other clubs they've not lost those players to other clubs, and have instead poached from others.

Raggs wrote:I love that he argues that 4 came through their academy. As if that's some huge achievement.

Wasps have got 3 academy boys there. Don't even want to guess how many Irish. Numerous Leicester I'm sure.

Surely, everyone except Heinz and McConnochie came through someone's academy.
Within England, it's a hell of a journey to get into professional rugby without going through one of the academies.

Raggs wrote:The difference isn't how many they've got, it's that unlike other clubs they've not lost those players to other clubs, and have instead poached from others.

Which must be so much easier when you can simply outbid everybody whenever it's time for contrtact negotiations.

It's interesting to look at which of the club's are being vociferous (Exeter, Quin's, Glous) and which are staying quiet (Bath, Bristol). You'd think that it would make little sense to criticise if you were in danger of breaching the cap itself.