RugbyRebels

So pissed off with Jones now.

This match is the perfect opportunity to give some in-form players a chance.

We 'should' win comfortably and we may even score a try or two, but it would be nice to send a message out to under-performing players that they don't have a permanent right to the shirt.

There's just no getting rid of the favourites.

I'll laugh my cock off if we struggle to put them away or if it ends up close...I'll laugh even more if Wales, France and Ireland beat us as it'll be no less than we deserve.

WaspInWales wrote:

Doorzetbornandbred wrote:15. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 48 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 47 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 35 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (C) (Saracens, 89 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 62 caps)
10. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 73 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 105 caps)

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 63 caps)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 40 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 44 caps)
5. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 86 caps)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 29 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 57 caps)

FINISHERS
16. Jamie George (Saracens, 55 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 24 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 9 caps)
21. Jack Willis (Wasps, 2 caps)
22. Dan Robson (Wasps, 8 caps)
23. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 4 caps)

Good team, but I'd start George. Only other changes I would make is to make the bench an 8/0 split. Then haul Ford off so Farrell can shift back to his world class position with Willis going to 12 to give a bit of power to the midfield.

So glad Eddie had the balls to drop Lawrence. That's a sign of great leadership. Lawrence didn't touch the ball for about an hour against Scotland. You can't avoid the ball for that long in test rugby and expect to get away with it.

You must be Eddie’s dad !

WaspInWales wrote:

Doorzetbornandbred wrote:15. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 48 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 47 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 35 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (C) (Saracens, 89 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 62 caps)
10. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 73 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 105 caps)

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 63 caps)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 40 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 44 caps)
5. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 86 caps)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 29 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 57 caps)

FINISHERS
16. Jamie George (Saracens, 55 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 24 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 9 caps)
21. Jack Willis (Wasps, 2 caps)
22. Dan Robson (Wasps, 8 caps)
23. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 4 caps)

Good team, but I'd start George. Only other changes I would make is to make the bench an 8/0 split. Then haul Ford off so Farrell can shift back to his world class position with Willis going to 12 to give a bit of power to the midfield.

So glad Eddie had the balls to drop Lawrence. That's a sign of great leadership. Lawrence didn't touch the ball for about an hour against Scotland. You can't avoid the ball for that long in test rugby and expect to get away with it.

Ha! Very good. This took me from incredulity to a couple of lols very quickly.

WaspInWales wrote: So glad Eddie had the balls to drop Lawrence. That's a sign of great leadership. Lawrence didn't touch the ball for about an hour against Scotland. You can't avoid the ball for that long in test rugby and expect to get away with it.

Disappointing 23 ...

As others have said, what is the point of picking Randall and Odogwu only to ignore the obvious opportunity to play them?

In the circumstances, Eddie could easily have dropped the likes of Farrell and Billy, given game time to Randall and Odogwu and said words to the effect of ‘we always planned to rotate for the Italy game’. If the changes were spectacularly successful, he could have then kept the player who performed in the 23 and said he was picking on form.

Such a missed opportunity.

As I said before, I defend Eddie’s record and I don’t see a better option out there right now, but I do disagree with a lot of his decisions.

We haven’t always played horrible rugby under his tenure. Hopefully he remembers that we can actually play rugby and gives a bit more license to show it.

Mellsblue wrote:

WaspInWales wrote:

Doorzetbornandbred wrote:15. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 48 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 47 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 35 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (C) (Saracens, 89 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 62 caps)
10. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 73 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 105 caps)

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 63 caps)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 40 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 44 caps)
5. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 86 caps)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 29 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 57 caps)

FINISHERS
16. Jamie George (Saracens, 55 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 24 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 9 caps)
21. Jack Willis (Wasps, 2 caps)
22. Dan Robson (Wasps, 8 caps)
23. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 4 caps)

Good team, but I'd start George. Only other changes I would make is to make the bench an 8/0 split. Then haul Ford off so Farrell can shift back to his world class position with Willis going to 12 to give a bit of power to the midfield.

So glad Eddie had the balls to drop Lawrence. That's a sign of great leadership. Lawrence didn't touch the ball for about an hour against Scotland. You can't avoid the ball for that long in test rugby and expect to get away with it.

Ha! Very good. This took me from incredulity to a couple of lols very quickly.

Yep, put the smile back on my face.

Scrumhead wrote:Disappointing 23 ...

As others have said, what is the point of picking Randall and Odogwu only to ignore the obvious opportunity to play them?

In the circumstances, Eddie could easily have dropped the likes of Farrell and Billy, given game time to Randall and Odogwu and said words to the effect of ‘we always planned to rotate for the Italy game’. If the changes were spectacularly successful, he could have then kept the player who performed in the 23 and said he was picking on form.

Such a missed opportunity.

As I said before, I defend Eddie’s record and I don’t see a better option out there right now, but I do disagree with a lot of his decisions.

We haven’t always played horrible rugby under his tenure. Hopefully he remembers that we can actually play rugby and gives a bit more license to show it.

Oh come on, Odogwu's clearly not tall enough for kick chase. Eddie only wanted him in camp to see if he was at the same eye level as himself.

Beasties wrote:I mean it's all very nice and all but it really is Groundhog Day with Eddie. We'll see fat Billy again and Lawes starting at 6. He'll see Italy as a chance to make his beloved powergame restore order and prove this Sat was an aberration that will never be repeated.

Ahem, you're welcome.

Scrumhead wrote:Disappointing 23 ...

As others have said, what is the point of picking Randall and Odogwu only to ignore the obvious opportunity to play them?

In the circumstances, Eddie could easily have dropped the likes of Farrell and Billy, given game time to Randall and Odogwu and said words to the effect of ‘we always planned to rotate for the Italy game’. If the changes were spectacularly successful, he could have then kept the player who performed in the 23 and said he was picking on form.

Such a missed opportunity.

As I said before, I defend Eddie’s record and I don’t see a better option out there right now, but I do disagree with a lot of his decisions.

We haven’t always played horrible rugby under his tenure. Hopefully he remembers that we can actually play rugby and gives a bit more license to show it.

Do you think kicking will remain the default option in this game? Surely, to take your last paragraph, we have to try to open up a bit against Italy. If not against them, when?

Personally I think this selection marks a huge change in game plan. Eng will now hoof it away from 12 instead of 10 - sheer genius.....

I might catch the highlights but cba to watch this.

Giving all his ‘boys’ every window of opportunity to be on the Lions radar...versatility, character, leadership and puppy dog eyes

I'll watch. Avidly. Not that i expect an all singing, all dancing performance. I dont. We'll largely grind it out, score a few tries, maybe some very good ones as we put away a callow Italian side who wont win a game this 6N and who may not secure a single point.
Once we've won and Faz & Co have game time under their belt and so are in A1 order to be selected, we'll move on to Cardiff with pretty much the same team.
And playing in pretty much the same way.

I think this is the team (excluding any new injuries) Eddie is going to stick with through to the end of the 6 Nations now. I think he’ll give this lot every chance to turn it around and get some wins/performances going. As fans we move on quickly, but imo it’s clear that this group of players have earned some loyalty from Eddie.

If they’re still badly misfiring by the end of the championship we’ll see changes. Probably a coach will go (Simon Amor most likely) and a few senior players will be dumped like in 2018.

This is so disappointing. It’s a wasted opportunity to blood young players like Odogwu and Randell and to give the likes of Willis the opportunity to shine at test level. Then, as other posters have written, a win will justify continuing with this team throughout the tournament. Trundling Billy should have been «rested » along with Farrell and given the Championship season to play some club rugby before being considered again. As Mellsblue said, it makes you want to cheer for Italy!

francoisfou wrote:This is so disappointing. It’s a wasted opportunity to blood young players like Odogwu and Randell and to give the likes of Willis the opportunity to shine at test level. Then, as other posters have written, a win will justify continuing with this team throughout the tournament. Trundling Billy should have been «rested » along with Farrell and given the Championship season to play some club rugby before being considered again. As Mellsblue said, it makes you want to cheer for Italy!

Yep. I'm trying to work out what sort of performance we could see on Saturday that actually makes me feel more positive about our approach. It would have to be Italy proving a challenge and England actually adjusting to it. Is any amount of solid set-piece and bludgeoning attack (even if it leads to 50+) going to convince anyone there won't be another performance like last Saturday just around the corner?

francoisfou wrote:This is so disappointing. It’s a wasted opportunity to blood young players like Odogwu and Randell and to give the likes of Willis the opportunity to shine at test level. Then, as other posters have written, a win will justify continuing with this team throughout the tournament. Trundling Billy should have been «rested » along with Farrell and given the Championship season to play some club rugby before being considered again. As Mellsblue said, it makes you want to cheer for Italy!

Yeah it's a complete waste. I have a feeling similar conversation have been had on here in past years about fringe squad players not getting selected against Italy when we've been a bit average the weekend before. Going through the hassle of joining a covid bubble to carry tackle bags must be fun.

I put something in the Owen Farrell thread that probably makes more sense here re Eddie and his lack of experimentation with line ups.

"Not sure why Eddie won't experiment against Italy but one thing that struck me from the Squidge Japan V SA videos (part 1) was that Eddie got a group of players together and barely changed them. I think France picked more players in one year than Eddie did in 3. A couple dropped out and a couple of genuinely talented players (including Matsushima) were added. My interpretation is that he finds his base, builds on it then drills the plans into it in stages over the 4 years with adaptations along with way. Farrell seems to be an important part of that in either 10 or 12 so I don't see him being deselected without an injury or for disciplinary reasons.

Some flaws to Eddie's thinking (re keeping the squad small) might be that besides our larger selection options and Japan also lacked the desire to win. They were happy to turn up. He had to instill the desire to win, and the desire not to lose, into them along with the ability to communicate on the pitch to take advantage of situations (again see the video.. ironically the players followed the boss's orders so much that they missed overlaps... England would never.. oh). What I'm driving at is that there was seemingly more to do with the players before they could perform to the levels they did when beating SA etc in 2015.

A further issue of Japan's was a huge lack of test match experience (Squidge highlights the cap count in the video). England on the other hand have a squad of players with a good amount & type of experience including a WC final, lions caps etc - if one or two player are swapped for newbies it's unlikely to have the same devastating impact, we still have players who should be able to lead and make decisions."

Whilst I think we will win on the weekend, I'm not sure it will help at all in the long run. Imo, Italy aren't as bad as their scoreline v France implies either.

Surely, we should reasonably expect to match France in terms of performance, if not necessarily the scoring margin?

Oakboy wrote:Surely, we should reasonably expect to match France in terms of performance, if not necessarily the scoring margin?

After last weekend wee should be thankful we aren't subject of a relegation discussion.

But seriously, in terms of application and effort - yes.

Really don’t think anything matters this weekend, beyond getting some sort of win. Win well or win narrowly, we have 3 much bigger and tougher fixtures coming up which the team will be judged on.

I know everyone hates Eddie and these players now, but objectively there’s a lot of serious quality in the team. I do think there will be a reaction, especially from the Sarries boys.

If ever there were a chance to run the rule over some up and coming players, this was it, against a poor Italy that any English combination at all will hump.
Eddie Jones is a dull, boring little man and that is a dull boring team.
Prepare for a snooze fest that will tell Jones nothing new, even if his team sticks 60 on Italy.

Had we beaten Scotland well it may have been that game, but we just looked rusty as hell, so the Italy game is arguably a good game to shake off some rust without much risk.

Timbo wrote:Really don’t think anything matters this weekend, beyond getting some sort of win. Win well or win narrowly, we have 3 much bigger and tougher fixtures coming up which the team will be judged on.

I know everyone hates Eddie and these players now, but objectively there’s a lot of serious quality in the team. I do think there will be a reaction, especially from the Sarries boys.

You are probably right but, honestly, how has it come to this? Any sort of win against Italy is a pitiful goal in the premier NH competition in which we were, arguably, favourites before the competition started.

There was no way he was going to give guys like Randall and Odogwu a go after Scotland!
The Italy game is almost always a let down. Close amd attritional for 50/60 minutes then we build up a decent lead in the final quarter without ever really looking fluid or comfortable.
Not expecting anything else this time. Just looking forward to Earl and Willis coming on for more than 5 minutes to worry Underhill...