RugbyRebels

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 6:04 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 5:59 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 5:45 pm

it was an embodiment of english rugby. Effort over skill, tactics and execution.

bmp

Yes, there were various factors that confirm your statement.

Tuilagi made ground every time he got the ball and foraged forward with it - all of three times? Add in the defensive alignment errors and assess whether his overall effect on the game was better than a skilful contribution from James would have been.

Then, why have Ford at FH and ask your SH to sky the ball every time he touched it.

And, of all the FBs in world rugby, why would your FH try spiral bombs against Goode?

I think the kicking game was hampered by how easily Sarries managed to block off the Sale chasers or how easily the Sale chasers fell off tackles. Tough day at the office for the young back three. Sarries are very good at covering the backfield, I suspect Sale were hoping to draw Sarries into a kicking contest but instead it was just easier for Sarries to beat the chase and get momentum rather than kick back under pressure. When Sarries did have to box kick they tended to pick out Reed who was hapless under the high ball.

Then again Sale got back into the game through a box kick just after Healy said it was a redundant tactic. Then they changed tactics

Both sides were error strewn frankly.

The game was won by Sarries line out. Sale got nowhere near it in defence and lost several key attacking opportunities to good reads/defensive jumps.

Utter bollocks that Farrell got motm over any of his line out jumpers.

16th man wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 7:03 pm The game was won by Sarries line out. Sale got nowhere near it in defence and lost several key attacking opportunities to good reads/defensive jumps.

Utter bollocks that Farrell got motm over any of his line out jumpers.

We've found the lock, everybody!

Puja

Whether you feel or not Farrell was MOTM, or if you like/dislike Saracens, he clearly played really well and was better than Ford today. Also showed why he is the man to be trusted for England.
The agenda against him and saracens on here is epic, but hey, never let facts/performances/results get in the way of opinion.

16th man wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 7:03 pm The game was won by Sarries line out. Sale got nowhere near it in defence and lost several key attacking opportunities to good reads/defensive jumps.

Utter bollocks that Farrell got motm over any of his line out jumpers.

Sale barely contested Sarries lineout. For the last couple of games, Ashman darts have been poor as well

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 6:34 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 6:04 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 5:59 pm

Yes, there were various factors that confirm your statement.

Tuilagi made ground every time he got the ball and foraged forward with it - all of three times? Add in the defensive alignment errors and assess whether his overall effect on the game was better than a skilful contribution from James would have been.

Then, why have Ford at FH and ask your SH to sky the ball every time he touched it.

And, of all the FBs in world rugby, why would your FH try spiral bombs against Goode?

I think the kicking game was hampered by how easily Sarries managed to block off the Sale chasers or how easily the Sale chasers fell off tackles. Tough day at the office for the young back three. Sarries are very good at covering the backfield, I suspect Sale were hoping to draw Sarries into a kicking contest but instead it was just easier for Sarries to beat the chase and get momentum rather than kick back under pressure. When Sarries did have to box kick they tended to pick out Reed who was hapless under the high ball.

Then again Sale got back into the game through a box kick just after Healy said it was a redundant tactic. Then they changed tactics

Both sides were error strewn frankly.

It was a box kick where they actually managed to get someone there to contest. Sarries knocked on and away they went.

The old saying of the "the kick is only as good as the chase" was apt today.

chris18501 wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 8:15 pm

16th man wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 7:03 pm The game was won by Sarries line out. Sale got nowhere near it in defence and lost several key attacking opportunities to good reads/defensive jumps.

Utter bollocks that Farrell got motm over any of his line out jumpers.

Sale barely contested Sarries lineout. For the last couple of games, Ashman darts have been poor as well

It started in the first half on VDMs throws today.

Dorsetrugby wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 7:39 pm Whether you feel or not Farrell was MOTM, or if you like/dislike Saracens, he clearly played really well and was better than Ford today. Also showed why he is the man to be trusted for England.
The agenda against him and saracens on here is epic, but hey, never let facts/performances/results get in the way of opinion.

If I had faith that he would turn that on for England, on the regular, then I would agree with you, but it's been 112 caps now and he keeps having a couple of games where you think, "He's cracked it!" shortly before having a run of 10 where he kicks away obvious overlaps, makes the wrong decision on the gainline, loses the ability to pass in front of his man, and generally acts as a handbrake on the entire attack, not to mention getting arsey with the referee.

He did well today. I still don't want him ahead of Ford.

Puja

Dorsetrugby wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 7:39 pm Whether you feel or not Farrell was MOTM, or if you like/dislike Saracens, he clearly played really well and was better than Ford today. Also showed why he is the man to be trusted for England.
The agenda against him and saracens on here is epic, but hey, never let facts/performances/results get in the way of opinion.

I'm pretty pro sarries in terms of their model, ambition and achievement, and Farrell is clearly fulcral, as much in attitude as fly half performance. He is a very good front foot club 10, said so consistently and indeed during the first half today. His second half was poor though, objectively. But he was the winning 10, tho others were more influential in the second half. Trusting him for England has been the default for the last 11 years, albeit too much at 12. Much happier if he's at 10, limitations included internationally.

Why do you say agenda against him- i get the anti sarries bit, tho I'm not that grumpybout the 'cheating off the park' -but why cant it objective views about Faz? Think most say he is a good club 10.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 9:06 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 6:34 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 6:04 pm

I think the kicking game was hampered by how easily Sarries managed to block off the Sale chasers or how easily the Sale chasers fell off tackles. Tough day at the office for the young back three. Sarries are very good at covering the backfield, I suspect Sale were hoping to draw Sarries into a kicking contest but instead it was just easier for Sarries to beat the chase and get momentum rather than kick back under pressure. When Sarries did have to box kick they tended to pick out Reed who was hapless under the high ball.

Then again Sale got back into the game through a box kick just after Healy said it was a redundant tactic. Then they changed tactics

Both sides were error strewn frankly.

It was a box kick where they actually managed to get someone there to contest. Sarries knocked on and away they went.

The old saying of the "the kick is only as good as the chase" was apt today.

Happened at least 3 times when the cat fell out the cradle, but was overdone with average execution.

Puja wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 10:06 pm

Dorsetrugby wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 7:39 pm Whether you feel or not Farrell was MOTM, or if you like/dislike Saracens, he clearly played really well and was better than Ford today. Also showed why he is the man to be trusted for England.
The agenda against him and saracens on here is epic, but hey, never let facts/performances/results get in the way of opinion.

If I had faith that he would turn that on for England, on the regular, then I would agree with you, but it's been 112 caps now and he keeps having a couple of games where you think, "He's cracked it!" shortly before having a run of 10 where he kicks away obvious overlaps, makes the wrong decision on the gainline, loses the ability to pass in front of his man, and generally acts as a handbrake on the entire attack, not to mention getting arsey with the referee.

He did well today. I still don't want him ahead of Ford.

Puja

Now that normal service has been resumed with the tired old Faz v. Ford debate, the bloke I feel for is Marcus Smith'. Many seem to be ruling him out of the picture now. Looking back, I'd say he played well enough for England, despite a few blips, and brought a different dimension to the team. I feel he has been scapegoated to some degree. His main problem was to be surrounded by duff teammates who did not have his speed of mind or foot and lacked his natural attacking bent.
We will probably see the plodding Faz plugged in at 10 for the RWC, but then don't expect cup winning football from a turgid England.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 11:23 pm

Dorsetrugby wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 7:39 pm Whether you feel or not Farrell was MOTM, or if you like/dislike Saracens, he clearly played really well and was better than Ford today. Also showed why he is the man to be trusted for England.
The agenda against him and saracens on here is epic, but hey, never let facts/performances/results get in the way of opinion.

I'm pretty pro sarries in terms of their model, ambition and achievement, and Farrell is clearly fulcral, as much in attitude as fly half performance. He is a very good front foot club 10, said so consistently and indeed during the first half today. His second half was poor though, objectively. But he was the winning 10, tho others were more influential in the second half. Trusting him for England has been the default for the last 11 years, albeit too much at 12. Much happier if he's at 10, limitations included internationally.

Why do you say agenda against him- i get the anti sarries bit, tho I'm not that grumpybout the 'cheating off the park' -but why cant it objective views about Faz? Think most say he is a good club 10.

I get what they mean - one thing I noticed from doing the m-b-ms is that we do tend to miss the good stuff that players like Faz and Youngs do and look for the mistakes. Admittedly, sometimes it's really hard to miss the mistakes and it's annoying when they get nothing but cloying praise from the punditry, but we as a board do tend to swing the other way somewhat.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 1:03 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 11:23 pm

Dorsetrugby wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 7:39 pm Whether you feel or not Farrell was MOTM, or if you like/dislike Saracens, he clearly played really well and was better than Ford today. Also showed why he is the man to be trusted for England.
The agenda against him and saracens on here is epic, but hey, never let facts/performances/results get in the way of opinion.

I'm pretty pro sarries in terms of their model, ambition and achievement, and Farrell is clearly fulcral, as much in attitude as fly half performance. He is a very good front foot club 10, said so consistently and indeed during the first half today. His second half was poor though, objectively. But he was the winning 10, tho others were more influential in the second half. Trusting him for England has been the default for the last 11 years, albeit too much at 12. Much happier if he's at 10, limitations included internationally.

Why do you say agenda against him- i get the anti sarries bit, tho I'm not that grumpybout the 'cheating off the park' -but why cant it objective views about Faz? Think most say he is a good club 10.

I get what they mean - one thing I noticed from doing the m-b-ms is that we do tend to miss the good stuff that players like Faz and Youngs do and look for the mistakes. Admittedly, sometimes it's really hard to miss the mistakes and it's annoying when they get nothing but cloying praise from the punditry, but we as a board do tend to swing the other way somewhat.

Puja

Yeah but kabaddi

I think the reaction to Farrell is a result of far too much praise going his way when its not been justified. How many MotM awards has he got for being little more than adequate?
It makes being objective hard and does drive you to single out errors rather than focus on the good stuff.
I thought he played a very good game yesterday. His club form this season has been consistently at a high level. Theres no doubt that he does bring an intense competitive edge to Saracens and is a key player for them.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 7:38 am I think the reaction to Farrell is a result of far too much praise going his way when its not been justified. How many MotM awards has he got for being little more than adequate?
It makes being objective hard and does drive you to single out errors rather than focus on the good stuff.
I thought he played a very good game yesterday. His club form this season has been consistently at a high level. Theres no doubt that he does bring an intense competitive edge to Saracens and is a key player for them.

He was very good first half, but poor second i thought. But yes, even when playing poorly he remains their engine and emotional heartbeat (for better or worse).

Has a few have said, I think the issue is that a lot of us get annoyed of how over praised he is. I don’t agree that we’re particularly overly critical of him - almost all will say he’s a top quality Prem fly half but lacks something at test level, and that we prefer Ford. I don’t see how that is particularly controversial. I think the difference is we don’t get over excited about some of his work with ball in hand, as many do, and we tend to take in to account that he normally gets a very comfortable armchair ride behind a dominant Sarries pack.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 8:18 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 7:38 am I think the reaction to Farrell is a result of far too much praise going his way when its not been justified. How many MotM awards has he got for being little more than adequate?
It makes being objective hard and does drive you to single out errors rather than focus on the good stuff.
I thought he played a very good game yesterday. His club form this season has been consistently at a high level. Theres no doubt that he does bring an intense competitive edge to Saracens and is a key player for them.

He was very good first half, but poor second i thought. But yes, even when playing poorly he remains their engine and emotional heartbeat (for better or worse).

This is the other problem I have with all the praise, and I’m fairly certain you feel similar, it’s all about his attitude, his tackling, his will to win etc which is all good stuff and vital for a team but I want my flyhalf to be praised for constantly making the correct decisions on the gainline, for making line breaks etc etc.

Interesting twists on the classic discussion today. It got me wondering, my choice is Ford for ten like many here, but is he much more consistently excellent at the top? I sometimes wonder if frustration at the Farrell hype train makes us see him as better than he is. I really wanted Ford to dominate yesterday's game but didn't feel he did. He seemed fairly average to my casual viewing without great highs or lows.

I think we may have seen the best of Ford and Farrell at international level and there is an argument that neither has what it takes to be a constituent part of England moving up a level - should the overall playing strength improve. Either could be adequate should we ever produce a dominant pack but it is unrealistic to hope for that with so many other countries matching or bettering our production line.

It may be that Ford and Farrell see less starts after the RWC. Unfortunately, I am not convinced that Smith is the answer to take over. We may have to wait for a fourth candidate.

I think they’re both better players than when they took us to a World Cup final…
Tbh, I think 10 is probably our strongest position in the backs. Scrumhalf is a spluttering JVP, flawed Mitchell or the hope of Quirke, centres are a mess, wing is perma-crock Watson (world class when fit, imo) and a bunch of young untested hopes and an out of position 10/15, whilst 15 is Steward but no depth behind.

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 8:56 am Interesting twists on the classic discussion today. It got me wondering, my choice is Ford for ten like many here, but is he much more consistently excellent at the top? I sometimes wonder if frustration at the Farrell hype train makes us see him as better than he is. I really wanted Ford to dominate yesterday's game but didn't feel he did. He seemed fairly average to my casual viewing with great highs or lows.

Since Warr kicked pretty much everything before he went off- Ford saw about a 1/3rd of the ball Faz did in that period- not sure Ford would have been that visible. 10's usually are spoken of dominating games when in fact its the forwards giving them a stream of good ball, aided by the 9. Ford missed one kick at goal but otherwise did everything with his normal lack of fuss- Sale looked quite dangerous ball in hand, Tuilagi I thought looked pretty dynamic.

Anybody know where I can find stats for the match?

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 9:02 am there is an argument that neither has what it takes to be a constituent part of England moving up a level - should the overall playing strength improve.

what is that argument?

Without a pack producing good consistent ball, no fly half can miraculously produce good performances and results.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 11:14 am Anybody know where I can find stats for the match?

https://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/match?game ... gue=267979

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Sun May 28, 2023 9:16 am I think they’re both better players than when they took us to a World Cup final…
Tbh, I think 10 is probably our strongest position in the backs. Scrumhalf is a spluttering JVP, flawed Mitchell or the hope of Quirke, centres are a mess, wing is perma-crock Watson (world class when fit, imo) and a bunch of young untested hopes and an out of position 10/15, whilst 15 is Steward but no depth behind.

Freeman, Lawrence, Arundell imo have the talent to be starting.