6 Nations Squad Announcement - 11:30am

[Danno]

Seen elsewhere that Mitchell has a banged knee and may even make the Ireland game, albeit having missed a week of training.

Two posts earlier?

That'll learn me (it won't)

[Mikey Brown]

My sources are also saying knee on knee.

[Mikey Brown]

Forwards

1. Ellis Genge (vice-captain), Fin Baxter, Bevan Rodd
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie, Theo Dan, Curtis Langdon
3. Will Stuart, Joe Heyes, Asher Opoku-Fordjour
4. Maro Itoje (captain), Ollie Chessum
5. George Martin, Arthur Clark
6. Chandler Cunningham-South, Tom Curry, Ted Hill
7. Ben Curry, Henry Pollock
8. Ben Earl, Tom Willis

Backs

9. Ben Spencer, Harry Randall, Raffi Quirke, (Alex Mitchell)
10. Marcus Smith, Fin Smith, George Ford
11. Ollie Sleightholme, Cadan Murley
12. Henry Slade, Fraser Dingwall
13. Ollie Lawrence, Oscar Beard
14. Tommy Freeman, Tom Roebuck
15. Freddie Steward, Elliot Daly

Rearranged this, in case anyone gives a shit or couldn't quite remember who is in the squad. Obviously a bit of guesswork about who is going where in the back row.

Concerns for me at loose-head, back-row if he picks the wrong one... there's a great back-row in there but a shite one too... and inside centre... Funny feeling being an England fan looking at that - some excellent players, a lot to build on and lot's of talent coming through but also some fundamental weaknesses that just won't allow us to beat the big boys imo.

Genge has underwhelmed a little but is generally pretty good. I still think there’s a smarter way of using him that can make more of the carrying we see at club level. Baxter has dropped off a bit but Rodd seems to be playing well.

You can always worry about a coaching picking the complete wrong combinations, but that’s still a pretty handy group of backrows.

It’s not like we were a million miles from the big boys in the Autumn, and somehow it felt like we were functioning at about 60%

The 6 nations always feels like a fresh start so I think this might be interesting.

[FKAS]

Forwards

1. Ellis Genge (vice-captain), Fin Baxter, Bevan Rodd
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie, Theo Dan, Curtis Langdon
3. Will Stuart, Joe Heyes, Asher Opoku-Fordjour
4. Maro Itoje (captain), Ollie Chessum
5. George Martin, Arthur Clark
6. Chandler Cunningham-South, Tom Curry, Ted Hill
7. Ben Curry, Henry Pollock
8. Ben Earl, Tom Willis

Backs

9. Ben Spencer, Harry Randall, Raffi Quirke, (Alex Mitchell)
10. Marcus Smith, Fin Smith, George Ford
11. Ollie Sleightholme, Cadan Murley
12. Henry Slade, Fraser Dingwall
13. Ollie Lawrence, Oscar Beard
14. Tommy Freeman, Tom Roebuck
15. Freddie Steward, Elliot Daly

Rearranged this, in case anyone gives a shit or couldn't quite remember who is in the squad. Obviously a bit of guesswork about who is going where in the back row.

Concerns for me at loose-head, back-row if he picks the wrong one... there's a great back-row in there but a shite one too... and inside centre... Funny feeling being an England fan looking at that - some excellent players, a lot to build on and lot's of talent coming through but also some fundamental weaknesses that just won't allow us to beat the big boys imo.

Genge has underwhelmed a little but is generally pretty good. I still think there’s a smarter way of using him that can make more of the carrying we see at club level. Baxter has dropped off a bit but Rodd seems to be playing well.

Genge carries well but I think too often we lack momentum so he's running into two defenders who are waiting for him. Pat Lam's tactics are a bit mad but Bristol are good at generating and maintaining attack momentum so Genge tends to carry against a defence retreating or not set. Makes life a lot easier.

How's Baxter been in Europe? He has a torrid couple of weeks in the Prem with Heyes and Fasogbon making his life miserable at scrum time. Which happens to every prop at some point. Has he had some confidence boosting performances though.

[Mikey Brown]

It’s not been terrible, but frankly Marler has left us in the shit a bit. Our other prop options aren’t all that and Wyn Jones doesn’t really seem up to it anymore, as I’d hoped.

I just don’t want Baxter to have to be undisputed first choice (or reliably playing 60 minutes most weeks) just yet. Good for him to get the early exposure for England, but it’s always a tough choice with a young player whether it’s better for their confidence to exclude them for a bit.

Shame Obama isn’t in the frame. Seems to pick up a red card or an injury approaching every tournament anyway.

[twitchy]

It’s not been terrible, but frankly Marler has left us in the shit a bit. Our other prop options aren’t all that and Wyn Jones doesn’t really seem up to it anymore, as I’d hoped.

I just don’t want Baxter to have to be undisputed first choice (or reliably playing 60 minutes most weeks) just yet. Good for him to get the early exposure for England, but it’s always a tough choice with a young player whether it’s better for their confidence to exclude them for a bit.

Shame Obama isn’t in the frame. Seems to pick up a red card or an injury approaching every tournament anyway.

[Mellsblue]

It’s not been terrible, but frankly Marler has left us in the shit a bit. Our other prop options aren’t all that and Wyn Jones doesn’t really seem up to it anymore, as I’d hoped.

I just don’t want Baxter to have to be undisputed first choice (or reliably playing 60 minutes most weeks) just yet. Good for him to get the early exposure for England, but it’s always a tough choice with a young player whether it’s better for their confidence to exclude them for a bit.

Shame Obama isn’t in the frame. Seems to pick up a red card or an injury approaching every tournament anyway.

I’ve watched quite a bit of Sale recently, both live and on the telly box, and I think he’s in some of the best form of his career. He’s even starting to dominate at scrum time which I thought was always his biggest weakness. Whether that translates to test matches…

[Oakboy]

It’s not like we were a million miles from the big boys in the Autumn, and somehow it felt like we were functioning at about 60%

The question then is why? Was it selection? Was it playing style - especially defence 'confusion'? Was it just horrendous bench selection/use (e.g. pre-conceived Ford substitution)?

Or, was it bad overall coaching? Is there still slack to be given to SB as he learns the job???? I find the assistant coach line-up underwhelming to say the least.

In the debate about how good out players are, how good can they be if the coaching is not up to it?

As you imply, though, win the first match and everything could look different.

[Mikey Brown]

It’s not like we were a million miles from the big boys in the Autumn, and somehow it felt like we were functioning at about 60%

The question then is why? Was it selection? Was it playing style - especially defence 'confusion'? Was it just horrendous bench selection/use (e.g. pre-conceived Ford substitution)?

Or, was it bad overall coaching? Is there still slack to be given to SB as he learns the job???? I find the assistant coach line-up underwhelming to say the least.

In the debate about how good out players are, how good can they be if the coaching is not up to it?

As you imply, though, win the first match and everything could look different.

I mean yes that's a question but I wouldn't trust anyone claiming to have a concrete answer. I imagine it's a mix of all of those things. Building your team around a defensive system and then changing that system, as well as unsettling the squad on a personal level, is huge though.

I'm not totally convinced by the coaching crew we've assembled either and we seem slightly back and forth on what tactical approach we're using. To a degree that's understandable, and hopefully they'll have learned a lot from the Autumn. I agree the bench was generally underwhelming and the use of players like Spencer and Ben Curry was just confusing.

This is why I take slight issue with your immediate clamour for players with 'the highest cielings'. I agree in principle, but equally I don't think we've been seeing the best (or most cohesive version) of many of these players. As you say, if the coaching isn't up to it how can you really judge them? Maybe you'd get 1% more from Pollock than Underhill/Curry (for instance) but if you can get a 10% lift from the right backrow balance and tactical approach then focus on that first.

Something like the midfield is trickier, where Smith, Lawrence and Slade have had a good few games together and it doesn't look like that combo of players is likely to fully click while playing this way.

[Mikey Brown]

It’s not been terrible, but frankly Marler has left us in the shit a bit. Our other prop options aren’t all that and Wyn Jones doesn’t really seem up to it anymore, as I’d hoped.

I just don’t want Baxter to have to be undisputed first choice (or reliably playing 60 minutes most weeks) just yet. Good for him to get the early exposure for England, but it’s always a tough choice with a young player whether it’s better for their confidence to exclude them for a bit.

Shame Obama isn’t in the frame. Seems to pick up a red card or an injury approaching every tournament anyway.

I’ve watched quite a bit of Sale recently, both live and on the telly box, and I think he’s in some of the best form of his career. He’s even starting to dominate at scrum time which I thought was always his biggest weakness. Whether that translates to test matches…

Yep, it sounds like he's at least earned the bench spot for now. Max Lahiff seemed very impressed with how he took on Malherbe in SA, which must be as close to an international test as you can get.

[Mellsblue]

And still only 24

[Puja]

And still only 24

Easy to forget. He's had a decent career trajectory in terms of development so far - bit of early international experience (including that game against the Springboks where it was him and Blamire starting and they held their own) where a few weaknesses were exposed, but instead of having to correct them under pressure at the top level, he's been able to go back to his club, while still remaining in and around the EPS to learn from his elders as the third choice loosehead. I'm hopeful Baxter is going to have a similar learning and growing experience from his own current dip and by 2027 we'll have a formidable one-two punch (or 1-17 punch ) on that side of the scrum.

Now just gotta work out how to speed run that for AOF and Fasogbon on the other side.

Puja

[Oakboy]

It’s not like we were a million miles from the big boys in the Autumn, and somehow it felt like we were functioning at about 60%

The question then is why? Was it selection? Was it playing style - especially defence 'confusion'? Was it just horrendous bench selection/use (e.g. pre-conceived Ford substitution)?

Or, was it bad overall coaching? Is there still slack to be given to SB as he learns the job???? I find the assistant coach line-up underwhelming to say the least.

In the debate about how good out players are, how good can they be if the coaching is not up to it?

As you imply, though, win the first match and everything could look different.

I mean yes that's a question but I wouldn't trust anyone claiming to have a concrete answer. I imagine it's a mix of all of those things. Building your team around a defensive system and then changing that system, as well as unsettling the squad on a personal level, is huge though.

I'm not totally convinced by the coaching crew we've assembled either and we seem slightly back and forth on what tactical approach we're using. To a degree that's understandable, and hopefully they'll have learned a lot from the Autumn. I agree the bench was generally underwhelming and the use of players like Spencer and Ben Curry was just confusing.

This is why I take slight issue with your immediate clamour for players with 'the highest cielings'. I agree in principle, but equally I don't think we've been seeing the best (or most cohesive version) of many of these players. As you say, if the coaching isn't up to it how can you really judge them? Maybe you'd get 1% more from Pollock than Underhill/Curry (for instance) but if you can get a 10% lift from the right backrow balance and tactical approach then focus on that first.

Something like the midfield is trickier, where Smith, Lawrence and Slade have had a good few games together and it doesn't look like that combo of players is likely to fully click while playing this way.

Some good points, there. Pick the players to suit the system or pick the system to suit the players, would be one question.

Another would be the extent to which you continue to select injury-prone players. I always thought that England, over quite a few years, made a big mistake clinging to the hope that Tuilagi would stay fit - largely because of the damage it did in trying to build a cohesive centre-pairing without him. Now, are we making the same mistake with including Tom Curry and Underhill in the back-row build? Even arguing that one or the other should be available is a risk perhaps - if others with less fragile bodies are just as good.

The back-row balance debate also hinges on Earl, doesn't it? Pick him or not? Has he become a proven No 8 or is his early form falling off? Is he any sort of long-term option at 7? (Not answering that last question in the AIs, together with not testing Willis at 8, is arguably SB's biggest failing, IMO.)

[Oakboy]

And still only 24

I know I'm easily confused but who the f>ck are they talking about, I asked. I thought it was Bevan Rodd but he must be getting near 30 by now. Then I checked.

[Danno]

And still only 24

I know I'm easily confused but who the f>ck are they talking about, I asked. I thought it was Bevan Rodd but he must be getting near 30 by now. Then I checked.

Took me a minute as well what with the strategic typo.

[TheDasher]

Forwards

1. Ellis Genge (vice-captain), Fin Baxter, Bevan Rodd
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie, Theo Dan, Curtis Langdon
3. Will Stuart, Joe Heyes, Asher Opoku-Fordjour
4. Maro Itoje (captain), Ollie Chessum
5. George Martin, Arthur Clark
6. Chandler Cunningham-South, Tom Curry, Ted Hill
7. Ben Curry, Henry Pollock
8. Ben Earl, Tom Willis

Backs

9. Ben Spencer, Harry Randall, Raffi Quirke, (Alex Mitchell)
10. Marcus Smith, Fin Smith, George Ford
11. Ollie Sleightholme, Cadan Murley
12. Henry Slade, Fraser Dingwall
13. Ollie Lawrence, Oscar Beard
14. Tommy Freeman, Tom Roebuck
15. Freddie Steward, Elliot Daly

Rearranged this, in case anyone gives a shit or couldn't quite remember who is in the squad. Obviously a bit of guesswork about who is going where in the back row.

Concerns for me at loose-head, back-row if he picks the wrong one... there's a great back-row in there but a shite one too... and inside centre... Funny feeling being an England fan looking at that - some excellent players, a lot to build on and lot's of talent coming through but also some fundamental weaknesses that just won't allow us to beat the big boys imo.

Genge has underwhelmed a little but is generally pretty good. I still think there’s a smarter way of using him that can make more of the carrying we see at club level. Baxter has dropped off a bit but Rodd seems to be playing well.

You can always worry about a coaching picking the complete wrong combinations, but that’s still a pretty handy group of backrows.

It’s not like we were a million miles from the big boys in the Autumn, and somehow it felt like we were functioning at about 60%

The 6 nations always feels like a fresh start so I think this might be interesting.

I like Genge and love the carrying element (although that's arguably not quite what it was) but he's not a top tier international scrummager, which is a concern. I hope Rodd can be that guy and would've loved to have seen a VRR or Obano at some point. For too long we've not had a strong enough scrum.

Great selection of back-rows but he could still fck it up. I don't think Earl has the minerals to play 7 at intl level personally. He misses tackles and isn't a gritty, difficult player in the tight, like Ben Curry is for instance. So I hope he doesn't pick Earl at 7. CCS needs to improve stamina in my view, looks like he's blowing out of his arse after 30 minutes, but great when he's fresh for sure. T Willis at 8, B Curry at 7 and then some combo of CCS, Chessum, Hill playing at 6 and benching... I'd have all three in the 23 in some form.

You're right though, we're not too far away from the odd great result. I also think we're not too far away from being absolutely demolished by someone like France, that's my concern. I can see a side like that putting 50 on us tbh.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah Earl really is the big selection hurdle in the back row. Once again we've found a player become pretty central to what we do, but they don't appear to be quite good enough (at least for the fit of the team) to play in their best position and are blocking others in a different one.

On one hand dropping him doesn't seem quite fair, I'm not generally a fan but he's been a bright spot over the last 18 months, but most feel the best balanced back row wouldn't have him at either 7 or 8.

I could live with him starting and Willis off the bench, as I expect we'll get, if I wasn't so convinced he'll be shuffled to flanker regardless of performance. He's got a huge engine and I get why Borthwick wants the threat of his running ability available for the full 80, but can he really cut it as a workhorse in defence and allowing others their platform to carry in attack.

[Oakboy]

Concerns for me at loose-head, back-row if he picks the wrong one... there's a great back-row in there but a shite one too... and inside centre... Funny feeling being an England fan looking at that - some excellent players, a lot to build on and lot's of talent coming through but also some fundamental weaknesses that just won't allow us to beat the big boys imo.

Genge has underwhelmed a little but is generally pretty good. I still think there’s a smarter way of using him that can make more of the carrying we see at club level. Baxter has dropped off a bit but Rodd seems to be playing well.

You can always worry about a coaching picking the complete wrong combinations, but that’s still a pretty handy group of backrows.

It’s not like we were a million miles from the big boys in the Autumn, and somehow it felt like we were functioning at about 60%

The 6 nations always feels like a fresh start so I think this might be interesting.

I like Genge and love the carrying element (although that's arguably not quite what it was) but he's not a top tier international scrummager, which is a concern. I hope Rodd can be that guy and would've loved to have seen a VRR or Obano at some point. For too long we've not had a strong enough scrum.

Great selection of back-rows but he could still fck it up. I don't think Earl has the minerals to play 7 at intl level personally. He misses tackles and isn't a gritty, difficult player in the tight, like Ben Curry is for instance. So I hope he doesn't pick Earl at 7. CCS needs to improve stamina in my view, looks like he's blowing out of his arse after 30 minutes, but great when he's fresh for sure. T Willis at 8, B Curry at 7 and then some combo of CCS, Chessum, Hill playing at 6 and benching... I'd have all three in the 23 in some form.

You're right though, we're not too far away from the odd great result. I also think we're not too far away from being absolutely demolished by someone like France, that's my concern. I can see a side like that putting 50 on us tbh.

Dash, you are dumping Earl from the 23 then? I think quite a few are thinking that way but will SB be one of them? I can still see him picking 6. Chessum, 7. T Curry, 8. Earl. I'd start none of the three but, if SB does, will there be two backrowers on the bench or just one? If the latter, might it be CCS - to Willis's exclusion again? I think things turning ugly, as you fear, could hinge on this, together with SB's credibility.

[TheDasher]

Yeah Earl really is the big selection hurdle in the back row. Once again we've found a player become pretty central to what we do, but they don't appear to be quite good enough (at least for the fit of the team) to play in their best position and are blocking others in a different one.

On one hand dropping him doesn't seem quite fair, I'm not generally a fan but he's been a bright spot over the last 18 months, but most feel the best balanced back row wouldn't have him at either 7 or 8.

I could live with him starting and Willis off the bench, as I expect we'll get, if I wasn't so convinced he'll be shuffled to flanker regardless of performance. He's got a huge engine and I get why Borthwick wants the threat of his running ability available for the full 80, but can he really cut it as a workhorse in defence and allowing others their platform to carry in attack.

I suppose this is why this forum exists, I think it more and more as I get older, rugby is such a Rubik's cube... As you say, Earl is an 80 minute attacking/running threat, that's a great asset. He's so quick over 20 metres too and he does find those gaps that then open the field up... other than that though (which he's world class at) he's a bit average... But I mention the Rubik's cube because it's all connected to who is in the front row, second row and 6 and 7 as to whether you can play Earl at 8. If the front row is dominant and you have a big carrier or two and the locks are dominant etc etc, then it effects if you can afford a luxury player like Earl. If Earl came on for South Africa in the way that Kwagga Smith comes on, behind that pack, he'd have more highlights reel clips on youtube than anyone else in the world... I also think that CCS is really an 8, which I believe he thinks/wants too. So perhaps it should be Willis and CCS for 8, Chessum and Hill for 6, Curry and Earl for 7... It was so unpopular on here to have Itoje at 6 but part of me is always disappointed that didn't work out. Anyway, I digress!

[TheDasher]

Genge has underwhelmed a little but is generally pretty good. I still think there’s a smarter way of using him that can make more of the carrying we see at club level. Baxter has dropped off a bit but Rodd seems to be playing well.

You can always worry about a coaching picking the complete wrong combinations, but that’s still a pretty handy group of backrows.

It’s not like we were a million miles from the big boys in the Autumn, and somehow it felt like we were functioning at about 60%

The 6 nations always feels like a fresh start so I think this might be interesting.

I like Genge and love the carrying element (although that's arguably not quite what it was) but he's not a top tier international scrummager, which is a concern. I hope Rodd can be that guy and would've loved to have seen a VRR or Obano at some point. For too long we've not had a strong enough scrum.

Great selection of back-rows but he could still fck it up. I don't think Earl has the minerals to play 7 at intl level personally. He misses tackles and isn't a gritty, difficult player in the tight, like Ben Curry is for instance. So I hope he doesn't pick Earl at 7. CCS needs to improve stamina in my view, looks like he's blowing out of his arse after 30 minutes, but great when he's fresh for sure. T Willis at 8, B Curry at 7 and then some combo of CCS, Chessum, Hill playing at 6 and benching... I'd have all three in the 23 in some form.

You're right though, we're not too far away from the odd great result. I also think we're not too far away from being absolutely demolished by someone like France, that's my concern. I can see a side like that putting 50 on us tbh.

Dash, you are dumping Earl from the 23 then? I think quite a few are thinking that way but will SB be one of them? I can still see him picking 6. Chessum, 7. T Curry, 8. Earl. I'd start none of the three but, if SB does, will there be two backrowers on the bench or just one? If the latter, might it be CCS - to Willis's exclusion again? I think things turning ugly, as you fear, could hinge on this, together with SB's credibility.

I think I am dumping him from the 23, which feels harsh but there we go. I'd absolutely love him to be the answer at 7... I'd love someone to show me some stats to say that's a great call... but on the basis of what I see, I'd say B Curry is a better 7. Would love someone to tell me I'm wrong though as who doesn't love Earl's running threat... He is not though the answer at 8 in my view on the basis that the rest of the pack is crying out for more power and punch... Tom Willis. Re having him on the bench... If Chessum doesn't start he has to be on the bench... If he starts at 6 then you have to have CCS or Hill to cover. If he starts at lock then Martin must be on the bench and then you have to choose (if you're going with 5:3 split) one back-rower... which could be Earl but could not be! Brain hurts.

[Banquo]

I like Genge and love the carrying element (although that's arguably not quite what it was) but he's not a top tier international scrummager, which is a concern. I hope Rodd can be that guy and would've loved to have seen a VRR or Obano at some point. For too long we've not had a strong enough scrum.

Great selection of back-rows but he could still fck it up. I don't think Earl has the minerals to play 7 at intl level personally. He misses tackles and isn't a gritty, difficult player in the tight, like Ben Curry is for instance. So I hope he doesn't pick Earl at 7. CCS needs to improve stamina in my view, looks like he's blowing out of his arse after 30 minutes, but great when he's fresh for sure. T Willis at 8, B Curry at 7 and then some combo of CCS, Chessum, Hill playing at 6 and benching... I'd have all three in the 23 in some form.

You're right though, we're not too far away from the odd great result. I also think we're not too far away from being absolutely demolished by someone like France, that's my concern. I can see a side like that putting 50 on us tbh.

Dash, you are dumping Earl from the 23 then? I think quite a few are thinking that way but will SB be one of them? I can still see him picking 6. Chessum, 7. T Curry, 8. Earl. I'd start none of the three but, if SB does, will there be two backrowers on the bench or just one? If the latter, might it be CCS - to Willis's exclusion again? I think things turning ugly, as you fear, could hinge on this, together with SB's credibility.

I think I am dumping him from the 23, which feels harsh but there we go. I'd absolutely love him to be the answer at 7... I'd love someone to show me some stats to say that's a great call... but on the basis of what I see, I'd say B Curry is a better 7. Would love someone to tell me I'm wrong though as who doesn't love Earl's running threat... He is not though the answer at 8 in my view on the basis that the rest of the pack is crying out for more power and punch... Tom Willis. Re having him on the bench... If Chessum doesn't start he has to be on the bench... If he starts at 6 then you have to have CCS or Hill to cover. If he starts at lock then Martin must be on the bench and then you have to choose (if you're going with 5:3 split) one back-rower... which could be Earl but could not be! Brain hurts.

Earl is a luxury player for me. Not a giraffe one, but has a USP that doesn't for me make up for what he doesn't do given you then have to compensate. And his shouting is twatty.

[Puja]

Yeah Earl really is the big selection hurdle in the back row. Once again we've found a player become pretty central to what we do, but they don't appear to be quite good enough (at least for the fit of the team) to play in their best position and are blocking others in a different one.

On one hand dropping him doesn't seem quite fair, I'm not generally a fan but he's been a bright spot over the last 18 months, but most feel the best balanced back row wouldn't have him at either 7 or 8.

I could live with him starting and Willis off the bench, as I expect we'll get, if I wasn't so convinced he'll be shuffled to flanker regardless of performance. He's got a huge engine and I get why Borthwick wants the threat of his running ability available for the full 80, but can he really cut it as a workhorse in defence and allowing others their platform to carry in attack.

I suppose this is why this forum exists, I think it more and more as I get older, rugby is such a Rubik's cube... As you say, Earl is an 80 minute attacking/running threat, that's a great asset. He's so quick over 20 metres too and he does find those gaps that then open the field up... other than that though (which he's world class at) he's a bit average... But I mention the Rubik's cube because it's all connected to who is in the front row, second row and 6 and 7 as to whether you can play Earl at 8. If the front row is dominant and you have a big carrier or two and the locks are dominant etc etc, then it effects if you can afford a luxury player like Earl. If Earl came on for South Africa in the way that Kwagga Smith comes on, behind that pack, he'd have more highlights reel clips on youtube than anyone else in the world... I also think that CCS is really an 8, which I believe he thinks/wants too. So perhaps it should be Willis and CCS for 8, Chessum and Hill for 6, Curry and Earl for 7... It was so unpopular on here to have Itoje at 6 but part of me is always disappointed that didn't work out. Anyway, I digress!

I'm really not sure Earl is an 80 minute player with a huge engine. The majority of our close losses in big games last year came courtesy of a major tired-looking error from Earl - no arms tackle, not rolling away, no arms tackle, lazy jackal with hands on the floor, offside in midfield, not rolling away, barely putting a shoulder in and getting obliterated by De Allende. Maybe it was the extreme blitz that asked so much of him and he'll be better now that that's being scaled back, but he has consistently made game-changing mistakes that look lazy in the last 20 of games, so I do have to question his engine.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to the point in games when these errors happen, but to me he's always looked a bit inconsistent/erratic with his technique in the contact area. I mentioned his engine because we still seeing him getting on the ball and making breaks late on in the game, but maybe you're right.

I think either way we're describing a player that might struggle to simply shift his focus to playing openside, despite having a fantastic USP as a carrier.

[Banquo]

Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to the point in games when these errors happen, but to me he's always looked a bit inconsistent/erratic with his technique in the contact area. I mentioned his engine because we still seeing him getting on the ball and making breaks late on in the game, but maybe you're right.

I think either way we're describing a player that might struggle to simply shift his focus to playing openside, despite having a fantastic USP as a carrier.

Though he does play openside every week for Sarries to be fair. But agree on breakdown, and also on being error rich.

[TheDasher]

Dash, you are dumping Earl from the 23 then? I think quite a few are thinking that way but will SB be one of them? I can still see him picking 6. Chessum, 7. T Curry, 8. Earl. I'd start none of the three but, if SB does, will there be two backrowers on the bench or just one? If the latter, might it be CCS - to Willis's exclusion again? I think things turning ugly, as you fear, could hinge on this, together with SB's credibility.

I think I am dumping him from the 23, which feels harsh but there we go. I'd absolutely love him to be the answer at 7... I'd love someone to show me some stats to say that's a great call... but on the basis of what I see, I'd say B Curry is a better 7. Would love someone to tell me I'm wrong though as who doesn't love Earl's running threat... He is not though the answer at 8 in my view on the basis that the rest of the pack is crying out for more power and punch... Tom Willis. Re having him on the bench... If Chessum doesn't start he has to be on the bench... If he starts at 6 then you have to have CCS or Hill to cover. If he starts at lock then Martin must be on the bench and then you have to choose (if you're going with 5:3 split) one back-rower... which could be Earl but could not be! Brain hurts.

Earl is a luxury player for me. Not a giraffe one, but has a USP that doesn't for me make up for what he doesn't do given you then have to compensate. And his shouting is twatty.

I think that's all fair... I think he went through a patch in which his USP was just so good he had to play, he had a phenomenal few games... and then he didn't. Never a bad bench option and thus has an England future but he's not in my starting pack for sure.