EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Spiffy]

There are lots of things Farrell does well. It's not nothing he's a more physical presence, he tends to keep his game straight from 10 so he's not really reducing space outwide, his work off the ball is excellent, he takes a lot of good options with the ball, and his passing is mostly now at least solid, he also tends to default to a decision to go forwards and apply pressure rather than back off in the forlorn hope things will improve doing nothing

He does still butch the odd pass, more than he should for the level, and he does tend to still look a little clunky. I've wondered for a while if part of what makes Farrell look clunky is he's so often trying to keep straight to fix a defence, but it could be even if it looks ungainly it's more effective and gives him more options.

And whilst Farrell does miss tackles that's an accepted part of the linespeed to put the other side under pressure, even if his decision making in this area isn't always the best (and some allowances should be allowed for shunting back and forth from 10 to 12)

Also Farrell has improved a lot more than Ford in the last few seasons, so whilst I'd pick Ford for a match tomorrow it's possible I'd be picking Farrell come 2019 if the different levels of improvement continue, and if that's the case it'd probably be better to pick Farrell now. Hard this crystal gazing, but Eddie isn't getting paid such good money to have easy decisions.

Agree that Farrell has definitely improved, but I think that Ford has improved significantly too. His two games against Argentina in the summer were the best all round performances by any England FH (including himself) for some time. Argentina are a powerful team now, and this can't be written off as an easy run against poor opposition.

[Mikey Brown]

but the snag with that is that Ford will have Care at 9 presumably.

Why?

I don't think I can handle another conversation about whether Ford benefits from an improved pass at 9.

[Puja]

He is not a great defender though is he? Most missed tackles on that tour. He get's bounced a lot and seems to constantly mess up the defensive line by rushing out like a 10 year old dosed up on food colouring. Maybe the shout hypothesis holds some water after all.

I will say that the stats are a bit misleading. In a Farrell Snr run defence, the 12 has licence to fly up and pressurise the play-makers - Fazlet missed a lot of tackles, but in context his charges either bounced a man back and slowed him enough for the pack to swarm or forced him to step back inside for the pack to swarm. They may go down as "Missed Tackles", but they did an effective job of defending nonetheless.

Puha

[Oakboy]

but the snag with that is that Ford will have Care at 9 presumably.

Why?

Come on, you know the answer. He's second choice to Youngs so he can't be brilliant. Yes, he was adequate in Argentina but, IMO, Ford looked in control of the game despite Care's service. For me, it's all about maximising potential. Ford could be an outstanding international FH (he is not, so far, but his skills appear to indicate that there could be loads more to come). I don't see him convincing Eddie unless Care ups his game.

[Mellsblue]

but the snag with that is that Ford will have Care at 9 presumably.

Why?

Come on, you know the answer. He's second choice to Youngs so he can't be brilliant. Yes, he was adequate in Argentina but, IMO, Ford looked in control of the game despite Care's service. For me, it's all about maximising potential. Ford could be an outstanding international FH (he is not, so far, but his skills appear to indicate that there could be loads more to come). I don't see him convincing Eddie unless Care ups his game.

I'm asking why you think Care will start during the AI's.

[Mikey Brown]

Anybody got any idea about Youngs situation? I suppose he just didn't want to be out of the country for the summer?

[Puja]

Anybody got any idea about Youngs situation? I suppose he just didn't want to be out of the country for the summer?

As far as I'm aware, it was just that he didn't want to be away for a long time. From my understanding, they're both available to play for Leicester as things stand.

In related news, terminal illnesses remain utterly sh*t and I hope all the Youngs family are doing as well as can be expected.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Why?

Come on, you know the answer. He's second choice to Youngs so he can't be brilliant. Yes, he was adequate in Argentina but, IMO, Ford looked in control of the game despite Care's service. For me, it's all about maximising potential. Ford could be an outstanding international FH (he is not, so far, but his skills appear to indicate that there could be loads more to come). I don't see him convincing Eddie unless Care ups his game.

I'm asking why you think Care will start during the AI's.

Ah, I see. Sorry. Total bloody ignorance. I was forgetting that Youngs did sweet f-all on the jamboree. I don't follow the Lions matches properly, as you know. Unfortunately, that helps Ford very little.

[Digby]

Agree that Farrell has definitely improved, but I think that Ford has improved significantly too. His two games against Argentina in the summer were the best all round performances by any England FH (including himself) for some time. Argentina are a powerful team now, and this can't be written off as an easy run against poor opposition.

I didn't see anything from Ford that looked like improvement, he just had a couple of very good games. And this is more over a couple of years, I don't know you'd want to read too much into two games.

[Mellsblue]

Come on, you know the answer. He's second choice to Youngs so he can't be brilliant. Yes, he was adequate in Argentina but, IMO, Ford looked in control of the game despite Care's service. For me, it's all about maximising potential. Ford could be an outstanding international FH (he is not, so far, but his skills appear to indicate that there could be loads more to come). I don't see him convincing Eddie unless Care ups his game.

I'm asking why you think Care will start during the AI's.

Ah, I see. Sorry. Total bloody ignorance. I was forgetting that Youngs did sweet f-all on the jamboree. I don't follow the Lions matches properly, as you know. Unfortunately, that helps Ford very little.

In hindsight I didn't make it particularly clear!

[Spiffy]

Agree that Farrell has definitely improved, but I think that Ford has improved significantly too. His two games against Argentina in the summer were the best all round performances by any England FH (including himself) for some time. Argentina are a powerful team now, and this can't be written off as an easy run against poor opposition.

I didn't see anything from Ford that looked like improvement, he just had a couple of very good games. And this is more over a couple of years, I don't know you'd want to read too much into two games.

[Spiffy]

Agree that Farrell has definitely improved, but I think that Ford has improved significantly too. His two games against Argentina in the summer were the best all round performances by any England FH (including himself) for some time. Argentina are a powerful team now, and this can't be written off as an easy run against poor opposition.

I didn't see anything from Ford that looked like improvement, he just had a couple of very good games. And this is more over a couple of years, I don't know you'd want to read too much into two games.

Hard to follow your logic there.
You just stated that Ford had a couple of very good games, yet showed no signs of improvement.
This would logically mean that very good games are therfore his norm
Most posters here were impressed by his performance and one would normally assess the progress of any player by his most recent games, rather than those played some time ago (not that he was ever that bad.) Interested to see how he does this season for Leicester and England, but unfortunately he'll play outside Youngs at both levels.
Anyway - we've probably flogged this one to death.

[Digby]

I didn't see anything from Ford that looked like improvement, he just had a couple of very good games. And this is more over a couple of years, I don't know you'd want to read too much into two games.

Hard to follow your logic there.
You just stated that Ford had a couple of very good games, yet showed no signs of improvement.
This would logically mean that very good games are therfore his norm
Most posters here were impressed by his performance and one would normally assess the progress of any player by his most recent games, rather than those played some time ago (not that he was ever that bad.) Interested to see how he does this season for Leicester and England, but unfortunately he'll play outside Youngs at both levels.
Anyway - we've probably flogged this one to death.

It is indeed the case I already thought he was capable of good performances before the Argentina tour. On the Argentina tour he had some very good games, but even the kicking wasn't a new thing that he was accurate, he's tended to be up and down a little and he's kicked well before (though when he first played he did have some technical issues which didn't help)

And put simply I don't know a player playing well suggests their game has improved, just they played well. If he keeps delivering at that level then he's matured and improved, but it'll take more to convince me. And I say none of that not as a fan, if I were picking a team tomorrow I'd pick Ford and have Farrell on the bench

[Scrumhead]

I didn't see anything from Ford that looked like improvement, he just had a couple of very good games. And this is more over a couple of years, I don't know you'd want to read too much into two games.

Hard to follow your logic there.
You just stated that Ford had a couple of very good games, yet showed no signs of improvement.
This would logically mean that very good games are therfore his norm
Most posters here were impressed by his performance and one would normally assess the progress of any player by his most recent games, rather than those played some time ago (not that he was ever that bad.) Interested to see how he does this season for Leicester and England, but unfortunately he'll play outside Youngs at both levels.
Anyway - we've probably flogged this one to death.

I think that Youngs and Ford playing together at club level can only be a good thing. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Youngs' passing is suddenly going to improve for a second, but I'd like to think that they'll develop a better understanding, which surely has to benefit them both.

And yes ... the Ford and Farrell debate was flogged to death a long time ago.

[Which Tyler]

Re. defence - I do not get all the Ford knocking. I think that many believe, that since he is a small man, he must automatically be a poor tackler, and have reached that conclusion without actually watching him closely. Obviously he is not a big-hit merchant, but he generally gets the job done, pulls down his man and is an effective enough defender. I do not have the statistics but I suspect he misses fewer tackles than Farrell.

But, but, but... Ford got bumped by Nathan Hughes a couple of times whilst going high (dad's orders)!

Ford misses very few tackles, but he sacrifices the gain line to do so.
Farrell misses a fair few tackles, but for Sarries, his job is to rush out of defence and attack the FH's outside shoulder, either making the tackle, cutting down the FH's time, or turning them back towards the pack. His tackle count is a downside of this methodology. He does the same for England, from too far out, not having the same benefits, and leaving the rest of the defensive line screwed and scrambling to cover for him. IMO Sarries have basically identified that he's an idiot who won't stop rushing out of the one in defence, and found a way to turn that into a virtue. For England opponents are better, time is lesser, and he's standing at IC not FH; but just can't be convinced to hold his position.

[morepork]

England is compromised to accomodate Farrell. Nice.

[Oakboy]

Re. defence - I do not get all the Ford knocking. I think that many believe, that since he is a small man, he must automatically be a poor tackler, and have reached that conclusion without actually watching him closely. Obviously he is not a big-hit merchant, but he generally gets the job done, pulls down his man and is an effective enough defender. I do not have the statistics but I suspect he misses fewer tackles than Farrell.

But, but, but... Ford got bumped by Nathan Hughes a couple of times whilst going high (dad's orders)!

Ford misses very few tackles, but he sacrifices the gain line to do so.
Farrell misses a fair few tackles, but for Sarries, his job is to rush out of defence and attack the FH's outside shoulder, either making the tackle, cutting down the FH's time, or turning them back towards the pack. His tackle count is a downside of this methodology. He does the same for England, from too far out, not having the same benefits, and leaving the rest of the defensive line screwed and scrambling to cover for him. IMO Sarries have basically identified that he's an idiot who won't stop rushing out of the one in defence, and found a way to turn that into a virtue. For England opponents are better, time is lesser, and he's standing at IC not FH; but just can't be convinced to hold his position.

WT, I agree with that assessment but I wonder if any of the England coaching crew does or any of worldwide punditry, come to that. Maybe we have missed some massive PR exercise that has convinced the rugby world apart from RR. Is it simply that Farrell is the 'lionheart' epitome? Or, do we simply underestimate Farrell's contibution to the team unit's collective spirit? On individual skill assessment, I just cannot see that we are wrong.

[Which Tyler]

TBF it's not just RR that seem to see this in Fazlet, most club forums seem to think the same, as do a few others - to a greater or lesser extent. He'll, even my parents agree when I talk about it with them shortly before watching England play. It really seems to be just the media, and people who trust the media over their own eyes, and for some treason, international level coaches.
If we're missing one thing, then there's an awful lot of us missing it.

[TheNomad]

I'd be interested to know what non-English fans think? I'm aware that some have already commented but there are some players that you just don't want to see lining up against you - I'd be interested to know if others feel that way about Farrell

[twitchy]

I'd be interested to know what non-English fans think? I'm aware that some have already commented but there are some players that you just don't want to see lining up against you - I'd be interested to know if others feel that way about Farrell

He seems to be some one that is both massively over and under rated. He is a good player with flaws like a most of our half backs.

[Mellsblue]

I'd be interested to know what non-English fans think? I'm aware that some have already commented but there are some players that you just don't want to see lining up against you - I'd be interested to know if others feel that way about Farrell

He seems to be some one that is both massively over and under rated. He is a good player with flaws like a most of our half backs.

I'm not sure anyone on here thinks differently. Most have an issue with him learning his job in an England shirt and the lionising of an average to good international player.

[Mikey Brown]

Wow...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/ar ... d=11898064

[Danno]

Only three Welsh? (AWJ wtf) On a Wales Online list?? Heresy. Or hackers having fun?

[TheNomad]

That list is near impossible to have a view on really - I think you can only ever really do a proper comparison of position by position

That being said, the players in the top two are probably about right

[twitchy]

I'd be interested to know what non-English fans think? I'm aware that some have already commented but there are some players that you just don't want to see lining up against you - I'd be interested to know if others feel that way about Farrell

He seems to be some one that is both massively over and under rated. He is a good player with flaws like a most of our half backs.

I'm not sure anyone on here thinks differently. Most have an issue with him learning his job in an England shirt and the lionising of an average to good international player.

I meant other countries fans (also not ones on this board).