EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Scrumhead]

That list is near impossible to have a view on really - I think you can only ever really do a proper comparison of position by position

That being said, the players in the top two are probably about right

Yeah - that's exactly what I thought. No idea how they can really compare a lock to a fly half?

[Oakboy]

That list is near impossible to have a view on really - I think you can only ever really do a proper comparison of position by position

That being said, the players in the top two are probably about right

Yeah - that's exactly what I thought. No idea how they can really compare a lock to a fly half?

True. I suppose if I was a club DoR with money to spend and I was offered Launchbury or Farrell, I'd take the former without a second's thought.

[richy678]

That list is near impossible to have a view on really - I think you can only ever really do a proper comparison of position by position

That being said, the players in the top two are probably about right

Comparing Billy V and Toby F.

Toby F is really, really hard done by to be down in the bottom third with Billy in the top.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no Welsh supporter, but I happen to think Toby Felatau is the best back row player and possibly forward in the UK.

[TheNomad]

Faletau is an incredible player. I feel the same about Billy V to be honest.

Other than in the line out, I'd say those two are at a top tier level for essentially all aspects of forward play. I think they'd have made a very effective 6 and 8 combo for the Lions.

I still think I'd go for Billy, but not my much. They're world class.

So when you think about it - three people from a very close family, when being trained at a high quality level, all become World Class. It makes you realise that the potential of the pacific islanders more broadly is extraordinary. It's nothing we don't know, but think how good a side that had been well drilled and well coached from the word 'go' would be

[Puja]

So when you think about it - three people from a very close family, when being trained at a high quality level, all become World Class. It makes you realise that the potential of the pacific islanders more broadly is extraordinary. It's nothing we don't know, but think how good a side that had been well drilled and well coached from the word 'go' would be

Hmmm. I'd say it's more evidence that rugby is a thing that you can hot-house, and that connections and a family name will get you a leg-up in the UK.

I mean, look at some of the young players in the Premiership and academies - Mallinder, De Glanville, Grayson, Redpath, Sleightholme, Hardwick, Moore - I get flashbacks to the late 90s whenever an England age group side is named. And with the notable exception of Hardwick, they're all in very similar positions to their famous namesakes. That's not all genetics; that's culture and immersion.

Puja

[Digby]

That list is near impossible to have a view on really - I think you can only ever really do a proper comparison of position by position

That being said, the players in the top two are probably about right

Yeah - that's exactly what I thought. No idea how they can really compare a lock to a fly half?

True. I suppose if I was a club DoR with money to spend and I was offered Launchbury or Farrell, I'd take the former without a second's thought.

Without evening considering your squad as it stood already?

[Stom]

So when you think about it - three people from a very close family, when being trained at a high quality level, all become World Class. It makes you realise that the potential of the pacific islanders more broadly is extraordinary. It's nothing we don't know, but think how good a side that had been well drilled and well coached from the word 'go' would be

Hmmm. I'd say it's more evidence that rugby is a thing that you can hot-house, and that connections and a family name will get you a leg-up in the UK.

I mean, look at some of the young players in the Premiership and academies - Mallinder, De Glanville, Grayson, Redpath, Sleightholme, Hardwick, Moore - I get flashbacks to the late 90s whenever an England age group side is named. And with the notable exception of Hardwick, they're all in very similar positions to their famous namesakes. That's not all genetics; that's culture and immersion.

Puja

And is one of the reasons NZ do so well. It's almost inbuilt immersion, something we cannot possibly replicate.

[Stom]

Yeah - that's exactly what I thought. No idea how they can really compare a lock to a fly half?

True. I suppose if I was a club DoR with money to spend and I was offered Launchbury or Farrell, I'd take the former without a second's thought.

Without evening considering your squad as it stood already?

Of course! What squad could possibly want Farrell?! Except Newcastle or Sale or Quins or London Irish or Glos or Wuss or Northampton...

[Puja]

So when you think about it - three people from a very close family, when being trained at a high quality level, all become World Class. It makes you realise that the potential of the pacific islanders more broadly is extraordinary. It's nothing we don't know, but think how good a side that had been well drilled and well coached from the word 'go' would be

Hmmm. I'd say it's more evidence that rugby is a thing that you can hot-house, and that connections and a family name will get you a leg-up in the UK.

I mean, look at some of the young players in the Premiership and academies - Mallinder, De Glanville, Grayson, Redpath, Sleightholme, Hardwick, Moore - I get flashbacks to the late 90s whenever an England age group side is named. And with the notable exception of Hardwick, they're all in very similar positions to their famous namesakes. That's not all genetics; that's culture and immersion.

Puja

And is one of the reasons NZ do so well. It's almost inbuilt immersion, something we cannot possibly replicate.

I suspect that's also why their U20s isn't filled with surnames from the 90s like ours and the French's are. They get the immersion to everyone, not just those whose dad was a pro and wants his son to follow.

I'd also posit that the immersion is part of the success of the PIs. If you look at Tahiti or Vanuatu - same build of people as the Tongans, but no rugby culture.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Yeah - that's exactly what I thought. No idea how they can really compare a lock to a fly half?

True. I suppose if I was a club DoR with money to spend and I was offered Launchbury or Farrell, I'd take the former without a second's thought.

Without evening considering your squad as it stood already?

Mmm! Maybe I should have elaborated. I assumed that I had a half-decent, balanced squad already and wanted to start upgrading as money permitted. It was just a vague thought in a 'devil's advocacy' of Scrumhead's point that I was agreeing with. My point was simply that Launchbury would be way ahead of Farrell in my shopping list if I was recruiting 'top class'. In an idealistic dreamworld, Farrell would not be in my first 2 or 3 FH choices but that's a different scenario from Scrumhead's point about comparing players in different positions.

[morepork]

So when you think about it - three people from a very close family, when being trained at a high quality level, all become World Class. It makes you realise that the potential of the pacific islanders more broadly is extraordinary. It's nothing we don't know, but think how good a side that had been well drilled and well coached from the word 'go' would be

Hmmm. I'd say it's more evidence that rugby is a thing that you can hot-house, and that connections and a family name will get you a leg-up in the UK.

I mean, look at some of the young players in the Premiership and academies - Mallinder, De Glanville, Grayson, Redpath, Sleightholme, Hardwick, Moore - I get flashbacks to the late 90s whenever an England age group side is named. And with the notable exception of Hardwick, they're all in very similar positions to their famous namesakes. That's not all genetics; that's culture and immersion.

Puja

And is one of the reasons NZ do so well. It's almost inbuilt immersion, something we cannot possibly replicate.

Why not?

[Puja]

Hmmm. I'd say it's more evidence that rugby is a thing that you can hot-house, and that connections and a family name will get you a leg-up in the UK.

I mean, look at some of the young players in the Premiership and academies - Mallinder, De Glanville, Grayson, Redpath, Sleightholme, Hardwick, Moore - I get flashbacks to the late 90s whenever an England age group side is named. And with the notable exception of Hardwick, they're all in very similar positions to their famous namesakes. That's not all genetics; that's culture and immersion.

Puja

And is one of the reasons NZ do so well. It's almost inbuilt immersion, something we cannot possibly replicate.

Why not?

Because rugby is your primary sport, whereas ours is sarcasm.

Puja

[Raggs]

Wasn't Barrett senior an all black?

[Mellsblue]

And is one of the reasons NZ do so well. It's almost inbuilt immersion, something we cannot possibly replicate.

Why not?

Because rugby is your primary sport, whereas ours is sarcasm.

Puja

And long may it continue to be.

[Mellsblue]

England head coach Eddie Jones has announced his training squad to take part in a pre-season camp at the Lensbury Hotel.

37 players will attend the three-day camp in Teddington, which begins on Saturday 5 August. Dan Cole, Owen Farrell, Jamie George, Maro Itoje, Jack Nowell, Kyle Sinckler as well as Anthony Watson will spend one day in camp while the other British & Irish Lions players have opted to remain on their summer break.

Nine players who made their debuts on England’s successful tour of Argentina in June are called up, including Tom Curry, Piers Francis, Nick Isiekwe, Alex Lozowski, Jack Maunder, Denny Solomona, Sam Underhill, Harry Williams and Mark Wilson.

Manu Tuilagi will join up with the England squad having last played for his country during the 2016 RBS 6 Nations. 18 year-old Marcus Smith (Harlequins) has also been called up having been involved in some sessions at England’s training camp in Brighton at the end of last season, as well as playing in England U20s 2017 Six Nations Grand Slam winning squad. Hooker Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby) is also named in the training squad.

'We want to be the number one team in the world'
“We are at an incredibly important stage with two years to go to the Rugby World Cup in Japan and there is still a big step to make if we want to be the number one team in the world,” said Jones.

“We are going to have to be meticulous in a preparation in everything we do as we build towards Tokyo and that is why this camp is vital ahead of this season.

The camp will involve medical checkups, functional and rugby training, planning meetings and individual reviews as England begin their preparations for the upcoming Old Mutual Wealth Series.

The seven players involved with the Lions tour who have opted to attend the camp will not train and will only take part in medical check-ups, as well as coach and strength & conditioning reviews.

The home Old Mutual Wealth Series played in November will involve three Tests against Argentina, who England beat 2-0 in June; Australia, who have lost on the previous four occasions to England; and Samoa who last played England in 2014.

“The players, coaches and staff will use these three days to reconnect and ensure we are all clear on what our priorities and expectations are ahead of the Premiership season as well as the upcoming Old Mutual Wealth Series,” added Jones.

Following two camps in August and September (Oxford), a final England squad will be announced on 26 October to play in the Old Mutual Wealth Series. England will travel to Portugal for a week’s training camp at the end of October before final preparations begin at Pennyhill Park ahead of the first Test versus Argentina (11 November).

England training squad for Lensbury camp:

Forwards

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers) – Monday only*

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)

Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)

Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)

Jamie George (Saracens)- Saturday only*

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)

Nathan Hughes (Wasps)

Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)

Maro Itoje (Saracens) – Saturday only*

Joe Launchbury (Wasps)

Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) – Saturday only*

Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)

Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)

Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Danny Care (Harlequins)

Nathan Earle (Saracens)

Owen Farrell (Saracens) – Saturday only*

George Ford (Leicester Tigers)

Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)

Alex Lozowski (Saracens)

Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints)

Joe Marchant (Harlequins)

Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs)

Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs) – Monday only*

Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Marcus Smith (Harlequins)

Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby) – Monday only*

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

England training camps:

Sunday 24- Tuesday 26 September: training camp, Oxford

Sunday 29 October- Friday 3 November: training camp, Portugal

[Digby]

Some names just back from Lions duty, some names absent for quite a while until this camp. More 9s than Eddie often names too

[Mellsblue]

I wonder how those Lions who have opted to rest will fare in the future. Pretty ballsy if, arguably, sensible move.

[Scrumhead]

I wonder how those Lions who have opted to rest will fare in the future. Pretty ballsy if, arguably, sensible move.

So by my reckoning the missing Lions are: Mako, Marler, Kruis, Haskell, Joseph, Lawes and Te'o.

With the exception of arguably Te'o, every one of those is a proven player. I assume they were given the choice and I can't see it really affecting their future selection chances.

[Mellsblue]

I wonder how those Lions who have opted to rest will fare in the future. Pretty ballsy if, arguably, sensible move.

So by my reckoning the missing Lions are: Mako, Marler, Kruis, Haskell, Lawes and Te'o.

I might be missing one, but with the exception of arguably Te'o, every one of those is a proven player. I assume they were given the choice and I can't see it really affecting their future selection chances.

You'd hope so. Marler's decision to miss a summer tour certainly hasn't harmed him. However, it would be difficult to argue that Joseph, Marler, Haskell and Kruis deserve more of a rest than Farrell, George, Itoje etc. There may be underlying factors, I believe Joseph was carrying an injury, but on the face of it those more deserving of a rest are there and those less deserving aren't.

[Banquo]

I wonder how those Lions who have opted to rest will fare in the future. Pretty ballsy if, arguably, sensible move.

So by my reckoning the missing Lions are: Mako, Marler, Kruis, Haskell, Lawes and Te'o.

I might be missing one, but with the exception of arguably Te'o, every one of those is a proven player. I assume they were given the choice and I can't see it really affecting their future selection chances.

JJ...who I think is 'at risk' wrongly

[Mellsblue]

Wigglesworth, Tuilagi and Marcus Smith are all notable choices. Can anybody give me the lowdown on Smith?

[Scrumhead]

I wonder how those Lions who have opted to rest will fare in the future. Pretty ballsy if, arguably, sensible move.

So by my reckoning the missing Lions are: Mako, Marler, Kruis, Haskell, Lawes and Te'o.

I might be missing one, but with the exception of arguably Te'o, every one of those is a proven player. I assume they were given the choice and I can't see it really affecting their future selection chances.

JJ...who I think is 'at risk' wrongly

I corrected my post but not quickly enough ...

You could make a case to say that JJ, Marler, Haskell and Te'o are at the most risk of being leapfrogged, but as harsh as Eddie can be, I honestly can't see him sacking off 7 of his best players for the sake of a day ...

[Scrumhead]

Wigglesworth, Tuilagi and Marcus Smith are all notable choices. Can anybody give me the lowdown on Smith?

Even as a Quins fan, I've not seen much of Smith. A mate told me a while ago that we went very modest in signing a replacement for Evans because Smith is coming-up fast and we only needed a temporary stop-gap.

When I see Wigglesworth, I just think why bother!

[fivepointer]

Thats quite a promotion for Smith. He was set to go with the U18's to South Africa this weekend! Played a game for the U20s in the last 6N's so is obviously a player very highly thought of.
Dunn is a good call I reckon.
Earle and Mallinder did enough in Argentina to get a further chance despite not featuring in the tests.

[16th man]

I wonder how those Lions who have opted to rest will fare in the future. Pretty ballsy if, arguably, sensible move.

So by my reckoning the missing Lions are: Mako, Marler, Kruis, Haskell, Lawes and Te'o.

I might be missing one, but with the exception of arguably Te'o, every one of those is a proven player. I assume they were given the choice and I can't see it really affecting their future selection chances.

You'd hope so. Marler's decision to miss a summer tour certainly hasn't harmed him. However, it would be difficult to argue that Joseph, Marler, Haskell and Kruis deserve more of a rest than Farrell, George, Itoje etc. There may be underlying factors, I believe Joseph was carrying an injury, but on the face of it those more deserving of a rest are there and those less deserving aren't.

I suspect it could be nothing more sinister than those who had plans with family / their clubs / sponsors vs those who were at a bit of a loose end on the Saturday.