RugbyRebels

Stom wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:If only Labour had a leader who was deemed to be trustworthy. They would be like ahead in the present shambles, you would even fancy Ed Milliband to be doing well.

The tragedy is Corbyn's view on Brexit. He could be as much a socialist as he is without being a (man with no opinion in the matter/closet Brexiteer)*. If he'd been even a luke-warm remainer Labour would be riding much higher in the polls.

*Delete as appropriate

I don't think that's true.

We don't have a free press and they'd all hate him for his potential to pull the rug out from under them anyway.

You really think any of the hatred for Corbyn comes from his stance on Brexit?

Farily or unfairly, he's been painted as a Communist Queen hater who is friends with terrorists and would hand over our country to Hamas.

He doesn't have much chance, no matter his policy!

Labour should have recognised this. It's one thing to know the system is crooked and want to change it...

And it's another thing to blindly expect that crooked system to not kill you.

Put up another leader and brief in private about press reform.

I think his Brexit position/lack of it has become another stick to beat him with. Overall, I agree with you - it's all very well and saying you won't let lies and press hatred force you out of position, but they have made him into a toxic brand and, if he wants change, he needs to hand over the reins to someone else.

Puja

in fairness Corbyn has spent decades hating the UK (or his take on the UK as an imperial power) and being friends with terrorists who have targeted British civilians and/or troops, now okay when he was cuddling up to the terrorists he can't possibly have imagined becoming Labour Party leader, but it's not exactly odd he's been and will be called out on it now he has.

Sandydragon wrote:
If only Labour had a leader who was deemed to be trustworthy. They would be like ahead in the present shambles, you would even fancy Ed Milliband to be doing well.

Bloody Ed Milliband, things weren't going too badly for Labour until Ed was all set to lose to his brother and was inspired to pander to the unions to recover his chances, and now here we are with bloody Momentum having taking over the Labour Party. Ed Milliband has a lot to answer for in all this

Stom wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:If only Labour had a leader who was deemed to be trustworthy. They would be like ahead in the present shambles, you would even fancy Ed Milliband to be doing well.

The tragedy is Corbyn's view on Brexit. He could be as much a socialist as he is without being a (man with no opinion in the matter/closet Brexiteer)*. If he'd been even a luke-warm remainer Labour would be riding much higher in the polls.

*Delete as appropriate

I don't think that's true.

We don't have a free press and they'd all hate him for his potential to pull the rug out from under them anyway.

You really think any of the hatred for Corbyn comes from his stance on Brexit?

Farily or unfairly, he's been painted as a Communist Queen hater who is friends with terrorists and would hand over our country to Hamas.

He doesn't have much chance, no matter his policy!

Labour should have recognised this. It's one thing to know the system is crooked and want to change it...

And it's another thing to blindly expect that crooked system to not kill you.

Put up another leader and brief in private about press reform.

I agree with you up to a point.

Of course a lot of Corbyn's problems with the press come from his position being too left wing even for the Guardian. He would, of course, be getting vastly more positive coverage if he was Blair II. But you can't have Corbyn and not have Corbyn.

No Blairite is going to lead Labour to victory and then hand it over to Corbyn. Either you have the return of New Labour, which would only represent a marginal improvement over the Tory governments we've seen of late* or you have more of a gamble on someone who would really make a difference and stop the inexorable shift to the right the UK has seen over the past 2 decades.

My point is that he could be as much of a left-winger as he is without being a closet Brexiteer, not that his left leanings don't affect his popularity (particularly in the press). If Corbyn had only been a remainer (even if only mildly) I think the LibDems wouldn't have had their recent resurgence and Labour would be be polling at least 10% higher.


* Okay, a fair improvement over this recent clown-fest.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Stom wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: The tragedy is Corbyn's view on Brexit. He could be as much a socialist as he is without being a (man with no opinion in the matter/closet Brexiteer)*. If he'd been even a luke-warm remainer Labour would be riding much higher in the polls.

*Delete as appropriate

I don't think that's true.

We don't have a free press and they'd all hate him for his potential to pull the rug out from under them anyway.

You really think any of the hatred for Corbyn comes from his stance on Brexit?

Farily or unfairly, he's been painted as a Communist Queen hater who is friends with terrorists and would hand over our country to Hamas.

He doesn't have much chance, no matter his policy!

Labour should have recognised this. It's one thing to know the system is crooked and want to change it...

And it's another thing to blindly expect that crooked system to not kill you.

Put up another leader and brief in private about press reform.

I agree with you up to a point.

Of course a lot of Corbyn's problems with the press come from his position being too left wing even for the Guardian. He would, of course, be getting vastly more positive coverage if he was Blair II. But you can't have Corbyn and not have Corbyn.

No Blairite is going to lead Labour to victory and then hand it over to Corbyn. Either you have the return of New Labour, which would only represent a marginal improvement over the Tory governments we've seen of late* or you have more of a gamble on someone who would really make a difference and stop the inexorable shift to the right the UK has seen over the past 2 decades.

My point is that he could be as much of a left-winger as he is without being a closet Brexiteer, not that his left leanings don't affect his popularity (particularly in the press). If Corbyn had only been a remainer (even if only mildly) I think the LibDems wouldn't have had their recent resurgence and Labour would be be polling at least 10% higher.


* Okay, a fair improvement over this recent clown-fest.

If, after his surge, he'd handed over to one of the left leaning social democrats rather than continued as a traditional English Socialist, Labour may have stood a chance.

English socialism doesn't stand a chance anymore.

Social democratics do, as shown by the support given to Sanders over the pond.

Stom wrote:If, after his surge, he'd handed over to one of the left leaning social democrats rather than continued as a traditional English Socialist, Labour may have stood a chance.

English socialism doesn't stand a chance anymore.

Social democratics do, as shown by the support given to Sanders over the pond.

Maybe. I hope you're wrong, but maybe.

I'm saying that his Brexit stance has made it even harder. Perhaps pushed it from difficult to impossible.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Stom wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: The tragedy is Corbyn's view on Brexit. He could be as much a socialist as he is without being a (man with no opinion in the matter/closet Brexiteer)*. If he'd been even a luke-warm remainer Labour would be riding much higher in the polls.

*Delete as appropriate

I don't think that's true.

We don't have a free press and they'd all hate him for his potential to pull the rug out from under them anyway.

You really think any of the hatred for Corbyn comes from his stance on Brexit?

Farily or unfairly, he's been painted as a Communist Queen hater who is friends with terrorists and would hand over our country to Hamas.

He doesn't have much chance, no matter his policy!

Labour should have recognised this. It's one thing to know the system is crooked and want to change it...

And it's another thing to blindly expect that crooked system to not kill you.

Put up another leader and brief in private about press reform.

I agree with you up to a point.

Of course a lot of Corbyn's problems with the press come from his position being too left wing even for the Guardian. He would, of course, be getting vastly more positive coverage if he was Blair II. But you can't have Corbyn and not have Corbyn.

No Blairite is going to lead Labour to victory and then hand it over to Corbyn. Either you have the return of New Labour, which would only represent a marginal improvement over the Tory governments we've seen of late* or you have more of a gamble on someone who would really make a difference and stop the inexorable shift to the right the UK has seen over the past 2 decades.

My point is that he could be as much of a left-winger as he is without being a closet Brexiteer, not that his left leanings don't affect his popularity (particularly in the press). If Corbyn had only been a remainer (even if only mildly) I think the LibDems wouldn't have had their recent resurgence and Labour would be be polling at least 10% higher.


* Okay, a fair improvement over this recent clown-fest.

Labours election problem is Corbyn. Yes, much of the media hates him (not all) but Labour should accept that many in this country don’t like his policies even before Brexit.

Considering his previous associations and speeches, being labelled as pro Hamas and a Communist isn’t exactly unfair.

Sandydragon wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Stom wrote:
I don't think that's true.

We don't have a free press and they'd all hate him for his potential to pull the rug out from under them anyway.

You really think any of the hatred for Corbyn comes from his stance on Brexit?

Farily or unfairly, he's been painted as a Communist Queen hater who is friends with terrorists and would hand over our country to Hamas.

He doesn't have much chance, no matter his policy!

Labour should have recognised this. It's one thing to know the system is crooked and want to change it...

And it's another thing to blindly expect that crooked system to not kill you.

Put up another leader and brief in private about press reform.

I agree with you up to a point.

Of course a lot of Corbyn's problems with the press come from his position being too left wing even for the Guardian. He would, of course, be getting vastly more positive coverage if he was Blair II. But you can't have Corbyn and not have Corbyn.

No Blairite is going to lead Labour to victory and then hand it over to Corbyn. Either you have the return of New Labour, which would only represent a marginal improvement over the Tory governments we've seen of late* or you have more of a gamble on someone who would really make a difference and stop the inexorable shift to the right the UK has seen over the past 2 decades.

My point is that he could be as much of a left-winger as he is without being a closet Brexiteer, not that his left leanings don't affect his popularity (particularly in the press). If Corbyn had only been a remainer (even if only mildly) I think the LibDems wouldn't have had their recent resurgence and Labour would be be polling at least 10% higher.


* Okay, a fair improvement over this recent clown-fest.

Labours election problem is Corbyn. Yes, much of the media hates him (not all) but Labour should accept that many in this country don’t like his policies even before Brexit.

Considering his previous associations and speeches, being labelled as pro Hamas and a Communist isn’t exactly unfair.

#1 I'm not sure most people actually know what Corbyn's policies are. When speaking to my father, for instance, he only knows what the Tories say Corbyn's policies are, lies that are peddled by the press. He doesn't have a chance to disagree with the actual policies and Labour have failed to solve this problem.

#2 That's why I said fair or unfair :p it's literally the only thing people talk about with him, though. And it's a long way to go from socialist to Communist...

Sandydragon wrote: Labours election problem is Corbyn. Yes, much of the media hates him (not all) but Labour should accept that many in this country don’t like his policies even before Brexit.

Considering his previous associations and speeches, being labelled as pro Hamas and a Communist isn’t exactly unfair.

You'll have to give me his quote on Hamas. He's certainly pro the Palestinian cause, which given Israel's long-standing contravention of international law, seems reasonable.

Communist? Do you mean he wants to set up a soviet-style dictatorship? I think socialist would sum up his position better.

I'm not sure Corbyns problem is the press hating him, altho they clearly do. When senior and life long labour politicians label him as an anti semite, for example, they arent doing that because they've read about it in the press.

Corbyns problem, for me, is that the absolute best thing I can say about him is that I cant think of any other politician, ever, who is so woefully incapable of playing the game of politics. We may decry that politicians need to be able to play a game to be effective, but that's just the way it is. He is uniquely incapable in that regard.

Just read that back and it's very clumsy English but I cant think of how to rephrase it... sorry!

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Donny osmond wrote:I'm not sure Corbyns problem is the press hating him, altho they clearly do. When senior and life long labour politicians label him as an anti semite, for example, they arent doing that because they've read about it in the press.

Corbyns problem, for me, is that the absolute best thing I can say about him is that I cant think of any other politician, ever, who is so woefully incapable of playing the game of politics. We may decry that politicians need to be able to play a game to be effective, but that's just the way it is. He is uniquely incapable in that regard.

Just read that back and it's very clumsy English but I cant think of how to rephrase it... sorry!

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

I agree that Corbyn's approach is a problem - many would handle things better - but the press is also a problem.

Also, with his views, it is more difficult to "play the game". Blair was able to cozy up to Murdoch, but there's simply nothing that Corbyn can say to get the Sun and the Times on his side.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:I'm not sure Corbyns problem is the press hating him, altho they clearly do. When senior and life long labour politicians label him as an anti semite, for example, they arent doing that because they've read about it in the press.

Corbyns problem, for me, is that the absolute best thing I can say about him is that I cant think of any other politician, ever, who is so woefully incapable of playing the game of politics. We may decry that politicians need to be able to play a game to be effective, but that's just the way it is. He is uniquely incapable in that regard.

Just read that back and it's very clumsy English but I cant think of how to rephrase it... sorry!

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

I agree that Corbyn's approach is a problem - many would handle things better - but the press is also a problem.

Also, with his views, it is more difficult to "play the game". Blair was able to cozy up to Murdoch, but there's simply nothing that Corbyn can say to get the Sun and the Times on his side.

well no, because he believes in big state, high (er) taxation and high government spend (with tasty demographic appetisers) , and a (re) nationalisation agenda, as well as being anti the monarchy and a pacifist (and I believe atheist). Pretty much the antithesis of their readerships beliefs and values. As for 'communist', well I suspect it didn't help that John McDonnell wielded the Little Red Book

Where Corbyn and his advisors are very much tuned in though is with 'street' sentiment; compare and contrast.....Corbyn addresses the climate change protesters with empathy (and empty soundbites but hey), Tory education secretary Williamson lambasts the kids for not being at school. Tone deaf indeed.

Banquo wrote:well no, because he believes in big state, high (er) taxation and high government spend (with tasty demographic appetisers) , and a (re) nationalisation agenda, as well as being anti the monarchy and a pacifist (and I believe atheist). Pretty much the antithesis of their readerships beliefs and values. As for 'communist', well I suspect it didn't help that John McDonnell wielded the Little Red Book

Exactly my point. His politics don't allow him to "play the game" as effectively as (say) Blair.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Banquo wrote:well no, because he believes in big state, high (er) taxation and high government spend (with tasty demographic appetisers) , and a (re) nationalisation agenda, as well as being anti the monarchy and a pacifist (and I believe atheist). Pretty much the antithesis of their readerships beliefs and values. As for 'communist', well I suspect it didn't help that John McDonnell wielded the Little Red Book

Exactly my point. His politics don't allow him to "play the game" as effectively as (say) Blair.

Good-oh, glad I could help . Maybe its the wrong game for him- at least its clear ground, big government or not. An unfair question given a quick scan of all the people who could be governing us.

Banquo wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Banquo wrote:well no, because he believes in big state, high (er) taxation and high government spend (with tasty demographic appetisers) , and a (re) nationalisation agenda, as well as being anti the monarchy and a pacifist (and I believe atheist). Pretty much the antithesis of their readerships beliefs and values. As for 'communist', well I suspect it didn't help that John McDonnell wielded the Little Red Book

Exactly my point. His politics don't allow him to "play the game" as effectively as (say) Blair.

Good-oh, glad I could help . Maybe its the wrong game for him- at least its clear ground, big government or not. An unfair question given a quick scan of all the people who could be governing us.

On big government, it's shrunk so much in the past 30 years that the kind of thing Corbyn wants would be considered small pre-Thatcher.

And I kind of do believe in government taking care of the "essentials". Different people have different ideas of what essential is, though...

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: Exactly my point. His politics don't allow him to "play the game" as effectively as (say) Blair.

Good-oh, glad I could help . Maybe its the wrong game for him- at least its clear ground, big government or not. An unfair question given a quick scan of all the people who could be governing us.

On big government, it's shrunk so much in the past 30 years that the kind of thing Corbyn wants would be considered small pre-Thatcher.

And I kind of do believe in government taking care of the "essentials". Different people have different ideas of what essential is, though...

so do I and yes. Though I will have a look at your shrinkage assertions.

Which Tyler wrote:

Can't see it: you need to be logged in to Rugby Forum to be able to view those files...

Stom wrote:Can't see it: you need to be logged in to Rugby Forum to be able to view those files...

Never had that problem before when posting pics hosted there - how's that?

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:
Good-oh, glad I could help . Maybe its the wrong game for him- at least its clear ground, big government or not. An unfair question given a quick scan of all the people who could be governing us.

On big government, it's shrunk so much in the past 30 years that the kind of thing Corbyn wants would be considered small pre-Thatcher.

And I kind of do believe in government taking care of the "essentials". Different people have different ideas of what essential is, though...

so do I and yes. Though I will have a look at your shrinkage assertions.

About the only central government shrinkage I can think of is central government transferring authority from central to local government, obviously without providing funding, but it's not much of a shrinkage

Which Tyler wrote:

Stom wrote:Can't see it: you need to be logged in to Rugby Forum to be able to view those files...

Never had that problem before when posting pics hosted there - how's that?

That's why I can never see your images - they blocked me from there for posting a link to a thread here.

I can see that one though; thanks for finding another source.

Puja

Angela Rayner on Andrew Fisher's exit, "staff do leave sometimes", "he's been there four years" and "we all have bad days"

None of which is accepting and dealing with the reality that even people involved in writing Labour's manifesto think Corbyn isn't up to the job.

The pro-brexit radio presenter Julia Hartley Brewer who works for Talk Radio, has released details to her Twitter followers about the location of the home of Jolyon Maugham QC, his wife and their small children.

Jolyon Maugham has, for the first time, been told he should take precautions to protect his personal security.
As I’m sure you likely know, Jolyon Maugham has been fighting in the Supreme Court to protect our democratic process.

Digby wrote:Angela Rayner on Andrew Fisher's exit, "staff do leave sometimes", "he's been there four years" and "we all have bad days"

None of which is accepting and dealing with the reality that even people involved in writing Labour's manifesto think Corbyn isn't up to the job.

anyone know how Labour can take over private school assets? Asking for a friend.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:Angela Rayner on Andrew Fisher's exit, "staff do leave sometimes", "he's been there four years" and "we all have bad days"

None of which is accepting and dealing with the reality that even people involved in writing Labour's manifesto think Corbyn isn't up to the job.

anyone know how Labour can take over private school assets? Asking for a friend.

How did private hospitals end up in the NHS? I'm actually wondering if they'd do similar, not that I know the process that was used back in day the NHS was first established nor if it'd be legal today