RugbyRebels

rowan wrote:

Digby wrote:Are you per chance using a cut and paste approach to moving a discussion on a thread about Russia away from Putin's corruption and the corruption of his cohorts?

No, just wondering why you're so obsessed with this when it's going on everywhere, while at the same time the US and its allies, including Britain, are bombing countries to rubble and slaughtering hundreds of civilians - without a peep out of you ...

Corruption and oppression isn't quite as prevalent all across Europe as it is in Russia, and as Russia is European (sort of) it is perhaps of more interest than many corrupt areas, all news being local and all that.

It's not much of an obsession though, last post on here was almost 3 weeks back before yesterday's effort, and my last comment on bombing by Britain and its allies was last weekend.

Digby wrote:

rowan wrote:

Digby wrote:Are you per chance using a cut and paste approach to moving a discussion on a thread about Russia away from Putin's corruption and the corruption of his cohorts?

No, just wondering why you're so obsessed with this when it's going on everywhere, while at the same time the US and its allies, including Britain, are bombing countries to rubble and slaughtering hundreds of civilians - without a peep out of you ...

Corruption and oppression isn't quite as prevalent all across Europe as it is in Russia, and as Russia is European (sort of) it is perhaps of more interest than many corrupt areas, all news being local and all that.

It's not much of an obsession though, last post on here was almost 3 weeks back before yesterday's effort, and my last comment on bombing by Britain and its allies was last weekend.

Not Western Europe. But Ukraine and (NATO member) Turkey are more corrupt & murderous than Russia, by some distance, Israel's many times worse and let's not even start with the Saudis. That's quite apart from the US itself, of course . . .

rowan wrote:

Digby wrote:

rowan wrote:
No, just wondering why you're so obsessed with this when it's going on everywhere, while at the same time the US and its allies, including Britain, are bombing countries to rubble and slaughtering hundreds of civilians - without a peep out of you ...

Corruption and oppression isn't quite as prevalent all across Europe as it is in Russia, and as Russia is European (sort of) it is perhaps of more interest than many corrupt areas, all news being local and all that.

It's not much of an obsession though, last post on here was almost 3 weeks back before yesterday's effort, and my last comment on bombing by Britain and its allies was last weekend.

Not Western Europe. But Ukraine and (NATO member) Turkey are more corrupt & murderous than Russia, by some distance, Israel's many times worse and let's not even start with the Saudis. That's quite apart from the US itself, of course . . .

I'm afraid this is more Rowan misinformation. You should apply for a job in Donald Trump's office.

From Transparency International's Corruption Index.

RANK COUNTRY/TERRITORY SCORE
18 United States 74
75 Turkey 41
131 Russia 29
131 Ukraine 29

So, Russia and Ukraine are equally corrupt, which is no surprise as they have the same tradition of oligarchy and criminal politicians. Turkey is considerably less corrupt even though it's exactly a beacon of transparency and democracy, while the US lags Western Europe but isn't even close to your implication.

So, next you'll dwell on the " murderous" bit, so I'll just leave this photo of what Russia did to "their own" city of Grozny in the Chechen War.

Rowan, there is a perfectly good Syria thread for you to cut and paste mosul information on.

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I certainly believe we live in a world where the indiscriminate bombing of Mosul by the Americans (although the Iraqi army provided the targets in this latest incident), and the Russian government being corrupt are not mutually exclusive. Pointing at one is not a defence for the other.

canta_brian wrote:Rowan, there is a perfectly good Syria thread for you to cut and paste mosul information on.

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I certainly believe we live in a world where the indiscriminate bombing of Mosul by the Americans (although the Iraqi army provided the targets in this latest incident), and the Russian government being corrupt are not mutually exclusive. Pointing at one is not a defence for the other.

Mosul's not in Syria, Canta. I know you probably don't know much about it, but it has been the scene of wholesale civilian slaughter recently by America and its allies (who include Britain), but strangely you guys have shown zero interest in that, which seems to me to be a very extreme case of selective morality. America has killed an estimated 10 million people with its Middle Eastern wars and operations, 4,000 since last month alone, with Britain in tow every step of the way. The reality is Britain itself is a nation with a far more evil history than any other, and the legacy of that is denialism, unaccountability, arrogance and hypocrisy, culminating in this need to constantly point the finger at others.

rowan wrote:

canta_brian wrote:Rowan, there is a perfectly good Syria thread for you to cut and paste mosul information on.

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I certainly believe we live in a world where the indiscriminate bombing of Mosul by the Americans (although the Iraqi army provided the targets in this latest incident), and the Russian government being corrupt are not mutually exclusive. Pointing at one is not a defence for the other.

Mosul's not in Syria, Canta. I know you probably don't know much about it, but it has been the scene of wholesale civilian slaughter recently by America and its allies (who include Britain), but strangely you guys have shown zero interest in that, which seems to me to be a very extreme case of selective morality. America has killed an estimated 10 million people with its Middle Eastern wars and operations, 4,000 since last month alone, with Britain in tow every step of the way. The reality is Britain itself is a nation with a far more evil history than any other, and the legacy of that is denialism, unaccountability, arrogance and hypocrisy, culminating in this need to constantly point the finger at others.

Yes, my slip. But the point still stands. The two are not mutually exclusive. Your endless posting on the same subject is irrelevant in regards to what is and isn't rhetoric in regards to Russia.

Bung a few in the random funny images thread as well. Why not?

In Soviet Russia, thread cut and pastes YOU.

rowan wrote:

Blah blah ranty blah

.... denialism, unaccountability, arrogance and hypocrisy, culminating in this need to constantly point the finger at others.

[emoji23] gets me every time

Interesting story on anti-Russian propaganda:

The demonization of Russia didn’t actually begin at the Ukrainian crisis of 2014 or even during the Syrian crisis. There were always a few crazies in the back of the room (like John Mccain and Mitt Romney) pushing the narrative, but no one was listening to them. However Russia’s successful defiance of the U.S. in Syria and Ukraine triggered the equivalent of a temper tantrum on the part of the U.S. and European ruling elite. Obama in particular got egg in the face several times during these crises, and this created an emotional link for those who were committed to supporting the Obama administration no matter what. Russia had made their leader look bad. Therefore Russia was an enemy. This phenomenon is an expression of the pack instinct. The Alpha must be protected at all costs.

The counterattack became a question of repetition and psychology, rendering the facts irrelevant. Rather than acknowledge that over 95% of the Crimean people voted to reunite with Russia in a referendum that no one has been able to discredit in any meaningful way, or the fact that under international law, the right to self determination is a valid premise for such a reunion, the mainstream media blurred the issue with a simple slur, parroted endlessly: Russian aggression, Russian aggression, Russian aggression.

THE LONG TERM CONSEQUENCES

The short term political utility of tying Trump to Russia has blinded many on the left to the long term effect such a strategy is bound to have. Consider for a moment the implications of an entire generation being raised in the United States right now marinating in news and commentary which frames Russia as enemy number #1 (or #2 depending on where Trump supposedly fits). The facts and specifics won’t matter to these formative minds. It all boils down to sentiment. This sentiment can (and likely will) be used in ways that those fomenting it never imagined.

A recent poll by Reuters found that a stunning 82% of Americans now view Russia as a threat. This is a ticking time bomb.

It is a strategic error to assume anti-Russian propaganda will always work in the favor of the political left. Remember the original Mccarthyism. Neocon Republicans like John Mccain and Mike Pence would like nothing more than a chance to clip Putin’s wings, and in the right context that’s exactly what they would attempt to do. By linking Russia to Trump (arguably one of the most hated political figures in American history) the left is unwittingly laying the psychological groundwork for war.

If and when the moment comes where a Republican president decides to escalate tensions with Moscow (by direct or proxy intervention), “progressives” will find themselves in an extremely uncomfortable dilemma: either they get carried along with their enemies in the wave of anti-Russian sentiment they helped create, or they try to reverse tack and play opposition.

Reversing tack wouldn’t be easy under any circumstances, but it the midst of a crisis it would be all but impossible, and such protests would be easily shot down with snippets of their own words. Hypocrisy is after all, a vulnerability in and of itself.

More here: http://stormcloudsgathering.com/demoniz ... carthyism/

All very true . . .

. . . For a decade now, the influential media has been building fear of and animosity against Russia and its president Vladimir Putin. For example, the media spread the establishment’s story that NATO’s buildup of weapons and forces near the Russian border is a reaction to Russian aggression. In its coverage, the media downplayed the U.S. violation of its pledge not to expand NATO ‘one inch’ to the east if the Soviet Union would allow Germany to be reunited. Unfortunately, the Clinton, Bush and Obama administrations all violated that pledge. Perhaps the media didn’t think NATO’s expansion to Russian borders might have been viewed as a provocation to Russia.

However, a key insider saw things very differently. In 1996 George Kennan, architect of the containment policy towards the Soviet Union, warned that NATO’s expansion into former Soviet territories would be a “strategic blunder of potentially epic proportions.” In 1998, Thomas Friedman solicited Kennan’s reaction to the Senate’s ratification of NATO’s eastward expansion. Kennan said: ”I think it is the beginning of a new cold war. I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else.”

The mainstream U.S. media also downplayed the importance of the U.S. supported 2014 Ukrainian coup, a major provocation that caused Russia to react as Kennan had predicted. Even George Friedman, CEO of Stratfor, a U.S. firm involved in analyzing intelligence, spoke about this coup that the media hailed as a revolution: “It really was the most blatant coup in history.”

The media continues the campaign against Russia by hyping the unsubstantiated claim that the Russian government hacked the Democratic National Committee’s emails and somehow provided the emails to Wikileaks. This problematic charge further bolsters the perception of Russia as our enemy, making the idea of war more palatable.

Disappointingly, the influential U.S. media ignores a strong challenge to this claim from former intelligence officials (Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity) who have a very good track record in evaluating evidence. Adding to the concern about these claim, it is important to remember that the CIA’s political leadership has a major credibility problem. Moreover, Julian Assange of Wikileaks, denied receiving the emails from the Russian government. Given these concerns and the lack of any solid evidence being shown to the public, a responsible media would certainly have carefully investigated the charge before unnecessarily heightening tensions between two powers with nuclear weapons.

Accuracy in reporting is especially important now since Russian and U.S./NATO forces are operating in close proximity along the Russian border and in Syria. Any small miscalculation could set off a nuclear conflict with unbelievably dire consequences for life on the planet. For example, studies by well-informed scientists have clearly demonstrated that there are no winners in a nuclear conflict. Therefore, it is past time for the mainstream U.S. media to live up to its responsibilities to the public and to carefully investigate claims instead of simply being a shameless propaganda tool of the U.S. political and military establishment.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/03/29/ ... ropaganda/

Reports of multiple explosions in St Petersburg, or explosions on more than one train carriage in St Petersburg. Not unusual for initial reports to be somewhat muddled, but it also sounds like 10 dead so far, perhaps worse to come.

Putin is in St Petersburg presently and has basically said they're not ruling anything out as a cause. It does sound a bit homemade ,why, and whether it's linked to Putin being there will have to wait.

Up to 50 injured, no details on how badly

No shortage of potential attackers all things considered.

Another unexploded device found

Live updates on BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-39482126

Expect the "truth" will follow on counterpunch given time.

Sandydragon wrote:No shortage of potential attackers all things considered.

Indeed. Chechnyan, Ukrainian, ISIS, FSB. Any more?

Zhivago wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:No shortage of potential attackers all things considered.

Indeed. Chechnyan, Ukrainian, ISIS, FSB. Any more?

FSB, ho hum.

Actually that probably covers it, barring the lone wolf highlighting some other issue.

Suprisingly little space on the news for such an attack.

Adder wrote:Suprisingly little space on the news for such an attack.

Assad moved quickly to take the headlines

OptimisticJock wrote:

morepork wrote:Nobody can read that many words at once. Come on. Lift your game.

Even the Sarge would take a few days to plough through that.

Finished.

A short summary for those of you with less endurance. It is a pile of shyte.

So we're shortly going to have the Russian forgone conclusions, or elections as they call them. It's a great place Russia, and yet the Kremlin and all the layers of corruption that layer down from the Kremlin don't half cause some problems.

Warm smell of colitis rising up though the air, up ahead in the distance I saw a shimmering blight, such a lovely place, such a lovely place....

Blimey, one little post and they've started killing on our lands again.

Boris said we (England) could boycott the World Cup this summer if it's shown Russia had carried on trying to kill people in the UK, that was later clarified by Boris' office to mean FA officials rather than the England team itself, that was later clarified by No.10 to suggest Boris should shut the feck up and doesn't speak for the UK in the unwise circumstance of him speaking.

We didn't do much when the offed Litvinenko, so I doubt Russia is in much fear of a strong and stable UK

England much prefers open, democratic societies . . .