America

[Stones of granite]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634
So... there was a trained, armed officer at the school - who arrived at the building, hung around for a bit, and wandered off again

He said video footage showed Mr Peterson arriving at the building where the shooting was taking place about 90 seconds after the first shots were fired and that he remained outside for about four minutes. The attack lasted six minutes, Sheriff Israel said.

I do'nt particularly like hanging the officer up to dry like that without hearing his story, but it's still pretty damning.

Nevermind though, I'm also sure that random Geography teacher #3 would have been so much better.

What a world we are living when the answer to the question "How we we stop guns being fired in schools?" is "Let's put more guns in schools."
Takes a real fucking genious (or more likely, sociopath) to come up with that one!

There are an awful lot of people gobbing off about a guy not trained for a tactical scenario like that not going in blind, by himself and killing someone armed with a superior weapon system. Most of the people I've read gobbing off have absolutely no concept or training of what it takes to do undertake combat OBUA (lets be under no illusions as thats what this effectively was) as a well drilled and equiped unit let alone as a person armed with nothing more than a pistol.

Fair comment Baz, but that's exactly what Trump is proposing that American schools should rely on.

[Digby]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634
So... there was a trained, armed officer at the school - who arrived at the building, hung around for a bit, and wandered off again

I do'nt particularly like hanging the officer up to dry like that without hearing his story, but it's still pretty damning.

Nevermind though, I'm also sure that random Geography teacher #3 would have been so much better.

What a world we are living when the answer to the question "How we we stop guns being fired in schools?" is "Let's put more guns in schools."
Takes a real fucking genious (or more likely, sociopath) to come up with that one!

There are an awful lot of people gobbing off about a guy not trained for a tactical scenario like that not going in blind, by himself and killing someone armed with a superior weapon system. Most of the people I've read gobbing off have absolutely no concept or training of what it takes to do undertake combat OBUA (lets be under no illusions as thats what this effectively was) as a well drilled and equiped unit let alone as a person armed with nothing more than a pistol.

Fair comment Baz, but that's exactly what Trump is proposing that American schools should rely on.

Maybe, or maybe the solution isn't to arm teachers with pistols, but ARs, maybe even a grenade or two...

[OptimisticJock]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634
So... there was a trained, armed officer at the school - who arrived at the building, hung around for a bit, and wandered off again

I do'nt particularly like hanging the officer up to dry like that without hearing his story, but it's still pretty damning.

Nevermind though, I'm also sure that random Geography teacher #3 would have been so much better.

What a world we are living when the answer to the question "How we we stop guns being fired in schools?" is "Let's put more guns in schools."
Takes a real fucking genious (or more likely, sociopath) to come up with that one!

There are an awful lot of people gobbing off about a guy not trained for a tactical scenario like that not going in blind, by himself and killing someone armed with a superior weapon system. Most of the people I've read gobbing off have absolutely no concept or training of what it takes to do undertake combat OBUA (lets be under no illusions as thats what this effectively was) as a well drilled and equiped unit let alone as a person armed with nothing more than a pistol.

Fair comment Baz, but that's exactly what Trump is proposing that American schools should rely on.

Which is why it's completely ludicrous to want to arm teachers, particularly ones untrained, when they've most likely not got the compulsion or conviction to run towards gunfire.

[Stones of granite]

There are an awful lot of people gobbing off about a guy not trained for a tactical scenario like that not going in blind, by himself and killing someone armed with a superior weapon system. Most of the people I've read gobbing off have absolutely no concept or training of what it takes to do undertake combat OBUA (lets be under no illusions as thats what this effectively was) as a well drilled and equiped unit let alone as a person armed with nothing more than a pistol.

Fair comment Baz, but that's exactly what Trump is proposing that American schools should rely on.

Which is why it's completely ludicrous to want to arm teachers, particularly ones untrained, when they've most likely not got the compulsion or conviction to run towards gunfire.

No argument here

[Digby]

Fair comment Baz, but that's exactly what Trump is proposing that American schools should rely on.

Which is why it's completely ludicrous to want to arm teachers, particularly ones untrained, when they've most likely not got the compulsion or conviction to run towards gunfire.

No argument here

Never having tried it I'd imagine in an environment like a school with multiple buildings, corridors, different outside spaces and so on running toward gunfire isn't all that easy. You'd know there was a noise, but you quite likely wouldn't know if you were running toward or away

[WaspInWales]

There are an awful lot of people gobbing off about a guy not trained for a tactical scenario like that not going in blind, by himself and killing someone armed with a superior weapon system. Most of the people I've read gobbing off have absolutely no concept or training of what it takes to do undertake combat OBUA (lets be under no illusions as thats what this effectively was) as a well drilled and equiped unit let alone as a person armed with nothing more than a pistol.

Fair comment Baz, but that's exactly what Trump is proposing that American schools should rely on.

Which is why it's completely ludicrous to want to arm teachers, particularly ones untrained, when they've most likely not got the compulsion or conviction to run towards gunfire.

But Trump doesn't want to arm regular teachers, he wants to give guns to gun adept teachers. The best of the best.

The kind of teachers who carry out embassy siege rescue missions on their spare time. Proficient not just in their times tables when teaching maths, but also proficient at double taps from 20 yards whilst blindfolded and shooting with their non-dominant hand.

[Sandydragon]

Which is why it's completely ludicrous to want to arm teachers, particularly ones untrained, when they've most likely not got the compulsion or conviction to run towards gunfire.

No argument here

Never having tried it I'd imagine in an environment like a school with multiple buildings, corridors, different outside spaces and so on running toward gunfire isn't all that easy. You'd know there was a noise, but you quite likely wouldn't know if you were running toward or away

Add in lots of screaming students scattering in all direction from an attacher who will likely be dressed and at first glance look the same.

This is why police firearms officers train so much.

[BBD]

You mean, its not like in the movies??

[Stones of granite]

What they really need is an ex Navy Seal working as a Chef in the school kitchen.

[Which Tyler]

No argument here

Never having tried it I'd imagine in an environment like a school with multiple buildings, corridors, different outside spaces and so on running toward gunfire isn't all that easy. You'd know there was a noise, but you quite likely wouldn't know if you were running toward or away

Add in lots of screaming students scattering in all direction from an attacher who will likely be dressed and at first glance look the same.

This is why British police firearms officers train so much.

FTFY

[BBD]

What they really need is an ex Navy Seal working as a Chef in the school kitchen.

he's just the cook

[Stones of granite]

Which is why it's completely ludicrous to want to arm teachers, particularly ones untrained, when they've most likely not got the compulsion or conviction to run towards gunfire.

No argument here

Never having tried it I'd imagine in an environment like a school with multiple buildings, corridors, different outside spaces and so on running toward gunfire isn't all that easy. You'd know there was a noise, but you quite likely wouldn't know if you were running toward or away

That's one aspect of it. I'm sure that there aren't very many of us on here (with one or two obvious exceptions) who have any concept of what it takes to de-holster a pistol and deliberately seek out a firefight with an unknown number of adversaries armed with unknown types and numbers of weapons, and located in an unknown tactical position. Both from a technical, tactical point of view, and from a mental point of view.

[OptimisticJock]

You mean, its not like in the movies??

IMG_20180223_001155.jpg

[Digby]

No argument here

Never having tried it I'd imagine in an environment like a school with multiple buildings, corridors, different outside spaces and so on running toward gunfire isn't all that easy. You'd know there was a noise, but you quite likely wouldn't know if you were running toward or away

Add in lots of screaming students scattering in all direction from an attacher who will likely be dressed and at first glance look the same.

This is why police firearms officers train so much.

Don't worry I heard one of the chaps training teachers to shoot on Today earlier, and they have a 3 day training course. Tbh if you haven't learnt it all after a whole 3 days you're just not paying attention. Mocking aside there was a teacher on also and she despite being former military didn't think it suitable for her to have a firearm in a classroom, though (and perhaps the mocking should start again) she did allow armed guards as a possible

[morepork]

I wonder if anybody has bothered to consider what the outcome will be when one of these armed teachers wakes up one morning and thinks their life will be fixed if they go to work and shoot a few kids?

There are around 3.2 million professional school teachers in the US. If 20% of them are armed then that means 640,000 of them are taking a gun to school every day.

The incidence of PTSD in the general population of the US is estimated at between 7-8%, which can be extrapolated to suggest that somewhere between 44,800 and 51,200 people would be walking into American schools every morning armed with a weapon and some form of mental disorder.

But wait! If the intent is to concentrate the carriage of guns into a 20% of "gun-adept teachers with military or special training experience," then the incidence of PTSD in the military population must be taken into consideration. According to peer-reviewed research (Psychological Services Vol9, No4, 361-382 (2012)) the prevalence of PTSD among former Servicemen and women who have served in recent conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan is between 14-16%. This would suggest that between 89,600 and 102,400 people would be walking into school in the US every morning armed with a weapon, a mental disorder and military training!

Has he thought this through?

Very, very good post; not "like" worthy - as there's very little to actually like in this.
I'm gonna nick your stats though

It's common fucking sense. All the data is out there.

[BBD]

Whether the teacher is suffering from a mental illness or PTSD is almost beside the point. Think about when you were at school, especially if you had a substitute teacher that day

Anyone who has worked with kids knows that on occasions the little cherubs can be incredibly frustrating to deal with before any actual teaching can commence. Arming the teachers is throwing a lighted match into the powder keg

[morepork]

Whether the teacher is suffering from a mental illness or PTSD is almost beside the point. Think about when you were at school, especially if you had a substitute teacher that day

Anyone who has worked with kids knows that on occasions the little cherubs can be incredibly frustrating to deal with before any actual teaching can commence. Arming the teachers is throwing a lighted match into the powder keg

The incidence of a spectrum of mental disorder among the general population the relevant point because it is a concrete metric that (should) negate endless anecdotal discussion. You can plan policy around evidence based observation, or you can plan it around talk back radio.

[SerjeantWildgoose]

Which is why it's completely ludicrous to want to arm teachers, particularly ones untrained, when they've most likely not got the compulsion or conviction to run towards gunfire.

No argument here

Never having tried it I'd imagine in an environment like a school with multiple buildings, corridors, different outside spaces and so on running toward gunfire isn't all that easy. You'd know there was a noise, but you quite likely wouldn't know if you were running toward or away

Surely you can get a Saturday detention for running in any direction in the school corridors?

[Stones of granite]

No argument here

Never having tried it I'd imagine in an environment like a school with multiple buildings, corridors, different outside spaces and so on running toward gunfire isn't all that easy. You'd know there was a noise, but you quite likely wouldn't know if you were running toward or away

Surely you can get a Saturday detention for running in any direction in the school corridors?

It depends. If you manage to take out the Year Head with a couple of well-aimed shots before he tells the Headie, you'll be fine.

[OptimisticJock]

I wonder if anybody has bothered to consider what the outcome will be when one of these armed teachers wakes up one morning and thinks their life will be fixed if they go to work and shoot a few kids?

There are around 3.2 million professional school teachers in the US. If 20% of them are armed then that means 640,000 of them are taking a gun to school every day.

The incidence of PTSD in the general population of the US is estimated at between 7-8%, which can be extrapolated to suggest that somewhere between 44,800 and 51,200 people would be walking into American schools every morning armed with a weapon and some form of mental disorder.

But wait! If the intent is to concentrate the carriage of guns into a 20% of "gun-adept teachers with military or special training experience," then the incidence of PTSD in the military population must be taken into consideration. According to peer-reviewed research (Psychological Services Vol9, No4, 361-382 (2012)) the prevalence of PTSD among former Servicemen and women who have served in recent conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan is between 14-16%. This would suggest that between 89,600 and 102,400 people would be walking into school in the US every morning armed with a weapon, a mental disorder and military training!

Has he thought this through?

I never realised the stats were so high for the yanks. Even ignoring whether ir not they've implemented a TRiM style template that's a disturbing stat.

[Sandydragon]

Whether the teacher is suffering from a mental illness or PTSD is almost beside the point. Think about when you were at school, especially if you had a substitute teacher that day

Anyone who has worked with kids knows that on occasions the little cherubs can be incredibly frustrating to deal with before any actual teaching can commence. Arming the teachers is throwing a lighted match into the powder keg

And what happens when some stroppy teenager makes a grab for the pistol?

[Sandydragon]

I wonder if anybody has bothered to consider what the outcome will be when one of these armed teachers wakes up one morning and thinks their life will be fixed if they go to work and shoot a few kids?

There are around 3.2 million professional school teachers in the US. If 20% of them are armed then that means 640,000 of them are taking a gun to school every day.

The incidence of PTSD in the general population of the US is estimated at between 7-8%, which can be extrapolated to suggest that somewhere between 44,800 and 51,200 people would be walking into American schools every morning armed with a weapon and some form of mental disorder.

But wait! If the intent is to concentrate the carriage of guns into a 20% of "gun-adept teachers with military or special training experience," then the incidence of PTSD in the military population must be taken into consideration. According to peer-reviewed research (Psychological Services Vol9, No4, 361-382 (2012)) the prevalence of PTSD among former Servicemen and women who have served in recent conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan is between 14-16%. This would suggest that between 89,600 and 102,400 people would be walking into school in the US every morning armed with a weapon, a mental disorder and military training!

Has he thought this through?

I never realised the stats were so high for the yanks. Even ignoring whether ir not they've implemented a TRiM style template that's a disturbing stat.

I was under the impression that they had something, but probably not as participant focused as TRIM. 12 month tours don’t help mind.

[Sandydragon]

Never having tried it I'd imagine in an environment like a school with multiple buildings, corridors, different outside spaces and so on running toward gunfire isn't all that easy. You'd know there was a noise, but you quite likely wouldn't know if you were running toward or away

Add in lots of screaming students scattering in all direction from an attacher who will likely be dressed and at first glance look the same.

This is why police firearms officers train so much.

Don't worry I heard one of the chaps training teachers to shoot on Today earlier, and they have a 3 day training course. Tbh if you haven't learnt it all after a whole 3 days you're just not paying attention. Mocking aside there was a teacher on also and she despite being former military didn't think it suitable for her to have a firearm in a classroom, though (and perhaps the mocking should start again) she did allow armed guards as a possible

A hole 3 days. That’s 2.5 days more than I thought there would be, it still woeful. And is there refresher training on a very routine basis? Without practice on a regular basis, a pistol user won’t hit a cows arse with a banjo.

[Sandydragon]

Apparently, there was an armed security guard on duty at this school. When the shooting started, he made a radio call and then waited outside.

So much for that theory then.

[OptimisticJock]

I wonder if anybody has bothered to consider what the outcome will be when one of these armed teachers wakes up one morning and thinks their life will be fixed if they go to work and shoot a few kids?

There are around 3.2 million professional school teachers in the US. If 20% of them are armed then that means 640,000 of them are taking a gun to school every day.

The incidence of PTSD in the general population of the US is estimated at between 7-8%, which can be extrapolated to suggest that somewhere between 44,800 and 51,200 people would be walking into American schools every morning armed with a weapon and some form of mental disorder.

But wait! If the intent is to concentrate the carriage of guns into a 20% of "gun-adept teachers with military or special training experience," then the incidence of PTSD in the military population must be taken into consideration. According to peer-reviewed research (Psychological Services Vol9, No4, 361-382 (2012)) the prevalence of PTSD among former Servicemen and women who have served in recent conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan is between 14-16%. This would suggest that between 89,600 and 102,400 people would be walking into school in the US every morning armed with a weapon, a mental disorder and military training!

Has he thought this through?

I never realised the stats were so high for the yanks. Even ignoring whether ir not they've implemented a TRiM style template that's a disturbing stat.

I was under the impression that they had something, but probably not as participant focused as TRIM. 12 month tours don’t help mind.

Yeah that's true. Even the civvy figures seem higher though.