Team for Italy

[Oakboy]

There was no way he was going to give guys like Randall and Odogwu a go after Scotland!

Interesting observation, that. Why, is the obvious question? It smacks a bit of Cipriani turning things round and never being seen again. Just supposing Randall were to run the game, speed up ball all over the park and produce tries, where does that leave Jones? Frankly, I think he is scared of that. What would he do for the next match? Pick Youngs again and defend the decision to drop Randall with 'it was only Italy'? He really does not have the balls to stick with Randall in that scenario, IMO. He has backed himself into a corner. 'Tried and tested' must rule.

[Timbo]

Really don’t think anything matters this weekend, beyond getting some sort of win. Win well or win narrowly, we have 3 much bigger and tougher fixtures coming up which the team will be judged on.

I know everyone hates Eddie and these players now, but objectively there’s a lot of serious quality in the team. I do think there will be a reaction, especially from the Sarries boys.

You are probably right but, honestly, how has it come to this? Any sort of win against Italy is a pitiful goal in the premier NH competition in which we were, arguably, favourites before the competition started.

I didn’t say it was the goal. I’m sure the team are planning and preparing to play well and win comfortably. But given what’s to come in the few weeks after Italy it’s pretty inconsequential isn’t it (as long as we don’t lose!!)

I’m actually just keen for this game to come and go tbh. Really intrigued to see how these players respond in some more meaningful games.

[fivepointer]

Difficult to shake the feeling that Italy is really just prep for the tougher games to follow.

It might have focused the minds more if it was Wales, Ireland or France next up.

[Oakboy]

Really don’t think anything matters this weekend, beyond getting some sort of win. Win well or win narrowly, we have 3 much bigger and tougher fixtures coming up which the team will be judged on.

I know everyone hates Eddie and these players now, but objectively there’s a lot of serious quality in the team. I do think there will be a reaction, especially from the Sarries boys.

You are probably right but, honestly, how has it come to this? Any sort of win against Italy is a pitiful goal in the premier NH competition in which we were, arguably, favourites before the competition started.

I didn’t say it was the goal. I’m sure the team are planning and preparing to play well and win comfortably. But given what’s to come in the few weeks after Italy it’s pretty inconsequential isn’t it?

I’m actually just keen for this game to come and go tbh. Really intrigued to see how these players respond in some meaningful games.

Oh, I agree but supposing it's really tight? Remember, it takes two to tango. The Italian camp must be up for it. We are the one 6N team they have never beaten etc.

[Oakboy]

Difficult to shake the feeling that Italy is really just prep for the tougher games to follow.

It might have focused the minds more if it was Wales, Ireland or France next up.

Yes but as the tournament unfolds, what if we beat Italy and then continue our losing streak?

[TheNomad]

Really don’t think anything matters this weekend, beyond getting some sort of win. Win well or win narrowly, we have 3 much bigger and tougher fixtures coming up which the team will be judged on.

I know everyone hates Eddie and these players now, but objectively there’s a lot of serious quality in the team. I do think there will be a reaction, especially from the Sarries boys.

But then what? We sort of know the ceiling of that side, and it wasn't high enough.

We have the biggest player pool in the world, but frankly, we are none the wiser of whether we have actual depth, or theoretical. Or whether certain combinations could actually work. Or if there are different players that might suit different tactics.

We're not learning enough about different players or different approaches.

If you just watched club rugby with no previous bias, you would highlight people like Malins, Thorley, Odogwu, Randall, Smith, Willis, Earl, Simmondsx2 and O'Conor as sure things to be in or around the national side.

I recognise that it's a different standard, and that in some instances it's probably right, but that group of players have been allowed almost no chance whatsoever - and the reality is, we have no idea how we'll they'd do if given a proper go.

So if not now - when we've still got time to give them experience ahead of a WC, and when the team is playing like crap - when?

I realise wholesale changes aren't constructive, and that the loss of the Japan tour was a real shame (the perfect time to try I guess) but we're wasting this time with the most stubborn coach you could ever imagine.

Really unimpressed

[Stom]

The thing is, we have been a really tough team to score against for most of our time. Eddie seems to think conceding tries is worse than not scoring tries, so does what he can to avoid it.

But we don't look comfortable at the moment. We didn't in the nations cup and we didn't against Scotland. Like there's just something not quite right...

Often, that seems to be the case when players are overthinking things. That happens when they're trying to adapt their game or trying to remember exactly what they're meant to be doing instead of doing what comes naturally.

For an international team, it's super tough to build up the cohesion when the players are playing a different game away from the nat setup.

If Eddie has issued new instructions, it may take them longer to become natural, especially as many players are starting to play a more fluid form of rugby at club level (thanks to the regulation changes that Eddie seems to have interpreted differently to everyone else).

My football team, Brentford, are currently on a 21 match unbeaten run. We've started conceding first in games, but always come back. In fact, we look so assured of ourselves in the final 15 of matches that we always feel like we're going to win, whatever the scoreboard.

That comes from every player knowing exactly what they're meant to be doing and having confidence in their ability to execute.

But in football, if 1-2 players aren't quite on the same wavelength, it's not the end of the world. In rugby, if those players aren't at the races...it all falls down. Especially when those players are in the key positions at 2, 8, 10 and 15...

We've swapped half of those for players who have been playing regular rugby and are in some kind of form. That will make a huge difference to our performance levels. But it's still far from ideal and if Italy are any good, they'd be exploiting that. I'd be doing the same as Scotland by moving Daly across the pitch at every opportunity. But if Ford is the one dropping back, not Farrell, he won't be so exposed (because of form/gametime/confidence in his current ability, not because of his actual ability).

[Insouciant]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGCgUWp9CaA

Eddie's own words; not sure there's actually much you can take from it.

[Danno]

Difficult to shake the feeling that Italy is really just prep for the tougher games to follow.

It might have focused the minds more if it was Wales, Ireland or France next up.

Yes but as the tournament unfolds, what if we beat Italy and then continue our losing streak?

We've lost 2 matches in 12 months. I get your frustration, and share a lot of it when it comes to selection and, perhaps, squandered opportunities to blood newer players, but you at least need 2 on the trot for it to be a streak, no?

Personally, I'm feeling really weird about rooting for Italy. They look genuinely exciting when they start to play. But more importantly, to me, a defeat to them is the only way we might see some upheaval in the squad. I'm not saying I want Jones out, necessarily, but the wet fish of a slap that is a defeat to Italy would give him a chance to look at the dead wood.

Alas, I don't think he would be drastic enough and we'd just be yelling about his decisions to get the Wiggler out of retirement, Nick Easter as consulant attack coach and 36 at wing.

[Digby]

If that was George's current profile he'd currently be selected. LCD shouldn't have too many issues beating that stat with more experienced props and Lawes back into the side.

[Mellsblue]

If that was George's current profile he'd currently be selected. LCD shouldn't have too many issues beating that stat with more experienced props and Lawes back into the side.

Wasn’t a posted as proof that he should start. It just struck me as very impressive and I thought this was the most relevant place to put it.

[Mellsblue]

Three pretty damning tables. Stats obvs need context etc but these aren’t a good look. The final table without a heading shows stats for the four matches with Ford-Farrell-Slade as the starting midfield:

[Galfon]

Grim - the use of kicking as the default offensive tactic looks ineffectual against a smart and dangerous opponent - apart from being boring to watch. Some of the kicks v. Sco (in opponent's half, numerical advantage) were pretty offensive tbf.

[Beasties]

Watching and supporting Eng used to be a joyous rollercoaster. Now it's a grim chore. It's odd that Eddie brought us the WC semi final and then decided that he never wants us to play like that again.

[fivepointer]

The scoring stats reinforce those above.

Average score during 2019 was 34-15.

Since WC final the average score is 23-13.

It should be noted that we've lost twice since the WC final, so we're hardly in freefall, but the points difference has narrowed and its plain to see that we are not exactly firing on all cylinders in attack.

[Epaminondas Pules]

It’s good to see us use the game against a piss poor Italian team to experience a little, look at succession planning, try some new talent and maybe not paper over cracks.

I am glad that George is getting a little kick up the arse. That’s the positive I think. The one. Other than that it’s a bit meh. I like lots of the players, but we’ll learn almost nothing from it.

[Oakboy]

I'm not as vitriolically opposed to Lawes at 6 as some but I cannot understand Jones's comment about the reason for picking him. Jones talks about how essential it is to have quick ruck ball but does Lawes offer that ahead of Willis or Earl? Lawes offers height, physicality, vicious attack-stunting tackling and inspiring commitment, all of which might justify his inclusion. But, quick ruck-ball?

As an amusing aside, with Jones's bench, might we see the first ever full back-row substitution?

[Oakboy]

It’s good to see us use the game against a piss poor Italian team to experience a little, look at succession planning, try some new talent and maybe not paper over cracks.

I am glad that George is getting a little kick up the arse. That’s the positive I think. The one. Other than that it’s a bit meh. I like lots of the players, but we’ll learn almost nothing from it.

I'm imagining the head-shaking and muttering when LCD's first line-out throw gets snaffled by Italy.

[Epaminondas Pules]

It’s good to see us use the game against a piss poor Italian team to experience a little, look at succession planning, try some new talent and maybe not paper over cracks.

I am glad that George is getting a little kick up the arse. That’s the positive I think. The one. Other than that it’s a bit meh. I like lots of the players, but we’ll learn almost nothing from it.

I'm imagining the head-shaking and muttering when LCD's first line-out throw gets snaffled by Italy.

LCD has the ‘you shag one sheep’ tag forever, George’s darts have been wonky of late, which isn’t just down to the hooker, but needs addressing. LCD has had the best darts in the prem for about four seasons straight and will always be the one with the ‘dodgy throwing’. Is what it is.

[Oakboy]

It’s good to see us use the game against a piss poor Italian team to experience a little, look at succession planning, try some new talent and maybe not paper over cracks.

I am glad that George is getting a little kick up the arse. That’s the positive I think. The one. Other than that it’s a bit meh. I like lots of the players, but we’ll learn almost nothing from it.

I'm imagining the head-shaking and muttering when LCD's first line-out throw gets snaffled by Italy.

LCD has the ‘you shag one sheep’ tag forever, George’s darts have been wonky of late, which isn’t just down to the hooker, but needs addressing. LCD has had the best darts in the prem for about four seasons straight and will always be the one with the ‘dodgy throwing’. Is what it is.

Agreed. I'm all for LCD starting. It was a major error to select any Saracens plsyers, IMO - even if Itoje made a huge case for being the exception (especially after Launchbury got injured).

[Stom]

It’s good to see us use the game against a piss poor Italian team to experience a little, look at succession planning, try some new talent and maybe not paper over cracks.

I am glad that George is getting a little kick up the arse. That’s the positive I think. The one. Other than that it’s a bit meh. I like lots of the players, but we’ll learn almost nothing from it.

I'm imagining the head-shaking and muttering when LCD's first line-out throw gets snaffled by Italy.

LCD has the ‘you shag one sheep’ tag forever, George’s darts have been wonky of late, which isn’t just down to the hooker, but needs addressing. LCD has had the best darts in the prem for about four seasons straight and will always be the one with the ‘dodgy throwing’. Is what it is.

I think that's the thing, though. George didn't make a bad throw*, Scotland just picked them off. So it's the caller's fault.

The same could happen to LCD.

*Caveat, I may be completely wrong, lol.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I'm imagining the head-shaking and muttering when LCD's first line-out throw gets snaffled by Italy.

LCD has the ‘you shag one sheep’ tag forever, George’s darts have been wonky of late, which isn’t just down to the hooker, but needs addressing. LCD has had the best darts in the prem for about four seasons straight and will always be the one with the ‘dodgy throwing’. Is what it is.

I think that's the thing, though. George didn't make a bad throw*, Scotland just picked them off. So it's the caller's fault.

The same could happen to LCD.

*Caveat, I may be completely wrong, lol.

Totally, in that it is more than just one thing at times. yeah, sometimes the throw is a bag of wotsits, but often it is a mixture. Timing, jumping, lifting, calling and of course the opposition getting it right and nicking it. I suppose it is simple to just focus on the hooker as the rest is really hard to determine, or rather record. Don't think it hurts to tell George his place isn't guaranteed by picking LCD to start. And caveat to say it is Italy.

[Mikey Brown]

Surely this is actually a promotion for George to the side that will finish the game. The most crucial part of the team, apparently.

[Digby]

If that was George's current profile he'd currently be selected. LCD shouldn't have too many issues beating that stat with more experienced props and Lawes back into the side.

Wasn’t a posted as proof that he should start. It just struck me as very impressive and I thought this was the most relevant place to put it.

I didn't take it as such. I was just amused at how much he's added to himself if not his game since his illegal team was banned from playing

[Mellsblue]

If that was George's current profile he'd currently be selected. LCD shouldn't have too many issues beating that stat with more experienced props and Lawes back into the side.

Wasn’t a posted as proof that he should start. It just struck me as very impressive and I thought this was the most relevant place to put it.

I didn't take it as such. I was just amused at how much he's added to himself if not his game since his illegal team was banned from playing

Their punishment is worse than a ban from playing. They get to play but not at Goldington Rd.