RugbyRebels

Mikey Brown wrote:Hogg (capt), McLean, Harris, Scott, Van der Merwe, Russell, Price; Schoeman, McInally, Z Fagerson, Skinner, Gilchrist, Haining, Ritchie, M Fagerson

Replacements: Ashman, Bhatti, Kebble, Hodgson, Watson, Horne, Hastings, Kinghorn

Wow. Matt Scott returns to start at 12 and Watson pushed to the bench for Haining. Wasn't expecting that. Form/fitness related or just a real kick in the pants for Watson and a win for the "too small" brigade?

I'm pleased for Scott and he could do well but I have to assume Johnson is injured? He offers a direct running threat but oh Jesus is that a clunky pair of handlers in the centre.

Kinghorn on the bench over Steyn is interesting. Excited to see if McLean can get any decent ball. Hogg is going to have to have his playmaking hat on.

I like Ashman but Rambo starting in place of Turner is the correct call.

I don't think Watson's benching has anything to do with size, I believe we will see him get most of the second half against a tiring Bok team. Interesting that Watson himself is significantly bigger than livewire Bok flanker Kwagga Smith, a relative midget who scales in at under 15 st.

Quick question but is Watson seen as too small or too short? I don't believe he's seen as too small to be effective around the pitch but rather too short to be an effective lineout option

stevedog1980 wrote:Quick question but is Watson seen as too small or too short? I don't believe he's seen as too small to be effective around the pitch but rather too short to be an effective lineout option

Wales best and often standard lineout option for years has been Tiperic. Wiki has him a inch taller than Watson, a bit heavier to lift
A decade and more ago, Wales best and often standard lineout option was Marin Williams. Wiki has him the same height as Watson.
Richie McCaw was often used as a lineout option. wiki has him the same height as Tiperic, but way heavier to lift.
I've often seen Tom Curry used as a lineout option for club and country. wiki has him listed as same height as Watson but a stone and a half heavier to lift.
I could go on.
I can rarely if ever recall Watson as a lineout option, most certainly not a regular one.

So either Watson has a really poor natural leap, or has shit hands, or multiple coaches have never thought of using him and are unaware of all those other guys

septic 9 wrote:

stevedog1980 wrote:Quick question but is Watson seen as too small or too short? I don't believe he's seen as too small to be effective around the pitch but rather too short to be an effective lineout option

Wales best and often standard lineout option for years has been Tiperic. Wiki has him a inch taller than Watson, a bit heavier to lift
A decade and more ago, Wales best and often standard lineout option was Marin Williams. Wiki has him the same height as Watson.
Richie McCaw was often used as a lineout option. wiki has him the same height as Tiperic, but way heavier to lift.
I've often seen Tom Curry used as a lineout option for club and country. wiki has him listed as same height as Watson but a stone and a half heavier to lift.
I could go on.
I can rarely if ever recall Watson as a lineout option, most certainly not a regular one.

So either Watson has a really poor natural leap, or has shit hands, or multiple coaches have never thought of using him and are unaware of all those other guys

Watson is a slightly different body shape than those others despite the height and weight stats. Just looking at him, I don't imagine him being as easy to lift as, say, Tipuric.

Having said that, remember his lineout takelast time against SA?

Cameo wrote:

septic 9 wrote:

stevedog1980 wrote:Quick question but is Watson seen as too small or too short? I don't believe he's seen as too small to be effective around the pitch but rather too short to be an effective lineout option

Wales best and often standard lineout option for years has been Tiperic. Wiki has him a inch taller than Watson, a bit heavier to lift
A decade and more ago, Wales best and often standard lineout option was Marin Williams. Wiki has him the same height as Watson.
Richie McCaw was often used as a lineout option. wiki has him the same height as Tiperic, but way heavier to lift.
I've often seen Tom Curry used as a lineout option for club and country. wiki has him listed as same height as Watson but a stone and a half heavier to lift.
I could go on.
I can rarely if ever recall Watson as a lineout option, most certainly not a regular one.

So either Watson has a really poor natural leap, or has shit hands, or multiple coaches have never thought of using him and are unaware of all those other guys

Watson is a slightly different body shape than those others despite the height and weight stats. Just looking at him, I don't imagine him being as easy to lift as, say, Tipuric.

Having said that, remember his lineout takelast time against SA?

no.
he is almost identical in build to Williams, and nothing to make him difficult to lift. Personally I have not a clue why he has never been launched like the others - but it has to be one of the things I listed.

Lineout-jumping is a skill with a lot of components: communicating consistently with hooker and lifters when you're ready to jump; timing the jump and getting a decent height; keeping a good body position; and being able to lean out for a slightly wayward ball and still be able to get back into a good landing position. All those skills can be coached but not everyone can be coached (I suspect that's not an issue with Watson) and then there's just natural ability. The communication thing is a bit like having a sense of rhythm - some people just don't.

And on a couple of earlier threads: I like Jonson's invisibility cloak - a lot of players would have gone down clutching their head {and many would be coached to) but Johnson just got up and got on. I like that.

And Septic's spot-on about the yellow card. The breakdown's a dangerous mess and needs to be refereed properly. Ideally refs would apply the laws that are there in the book (stay on your feet; don't collapse a ruck; if you're off your feet roll away from the ball), but the minimum is to apply the guidelines on head-contact.

Plus it just irritates the fuck out of me that a defender is penalised for a hand on the ground while an attacker can just dive into a ruck like it's a swimming pool.

Another team slapped by SA's mapimpi-cane!

Well we’re playing like absolute dribbling retards and are somehow ahead. Fuck knows what happens next.

What happens is SA screw the nut and go clear on the scoreboard

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It's such a shame. They look very well beatable today.

Sounds like a good'un based on the text updates.

Mikey Brown wrote:It's such a shame. They look very well beatable today.

They're doing all they have to. We've gone back to the usual, bad mistakes, daft penalties. SA don't need to do much other than just the basics.

We've been good for the first 60 mins tho. Maybe the 6 day turn around is too quick. Dunno, anyway we've fallen away from this and SA are world champs for a reason.

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Donny osmond wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:It's such a shame. They look very well beatable today.

They're doing all they have to. We've gone back to the usual, bad mistakes, daft penalties. SA don't need to do much other than just the basics.

We've been good for the first 60 mins tho. Maybe the 6 day turn around is too quick. Dunno, anyway we've fallen away from this and SA are world champs for a reason.

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Ashman's lineout nightmare ceetainly didn't help

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Adder wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:It's such a shame. They look very well beatable today.

They're doing all they have to. We've gone back to the usual, bad mistakes, daft penalties. SA don't need to do much other than just the basics.

We've been good for the first 60 mins tho. Maybe the 6 day turn around is too quick. Dunno, anyway we've fallen away from this and SA are world champs for a reason.

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Ashman's lineout nightmare ceetainly didn't help

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It was hard to picture us doing basically anything other than throw it on the floor if we'd won possession anyway.

That was Marcus Di Rollo level handling from 90% of the players today. Absolutely awful stuff. Must have grounded about 30 passes today.

Obviously they were belting us in the breakdown but the forwards seemed to be chasing their tales for a lot of that game as we just fumbled our way backwards. We played like we were chasing a last-minute bonus point right from the kick off.

Scotland's set piece, both scrum and lineout, really not up to it today. Plus some sloppy dog-leg defending in midfield. The Boks are very quick to pounce on any mistake.

Congrats to Stuart Hogg for breaking the Scotland try-scoring record. He is a wonderful player.

Did we shag gardners wife. Soo many poor calls in the first half.

The first 3 were really harsh , at one point he pinged Fagerson for scrumagging up even though the saffas have lifted him up off the ground.

The TMO review of both SA trys were poor

It’s weird watching a international game where teams are treated differently but gardener at points game coached South Africa while ignoring Scotland,

I think set peice lost us that game. We were still in it when we lost a couple of attacking lineouts.

The back line is looking a bit clunky though. Matt Scott's hands did not particularly impress and it was hard for him to shine with his running against that defence.

Defence generally good, especially Vs the maul, but I think McLean got caught narrow on that first try.

Was it just me or were SA in touch in the lead up to their second try (while recovering the kick on the right touchline)?

Forgot to say, the forward need to improve their passes back to the second line of attack. Russell was having to collect them from all over the place.

Maybe not helped by the SA line speed.

Some times you just get pumped in the set piece. Not a lot you can do with that. Ashman if I recall didn't get any easy throws like McInally did to Schoeman. Bit of a lesson for him, but that's international rugby.

Defence was mostly good, two errors cost us tries. Again McLean given a lesson but he'll learn.

A bit like last week, it wasn't really clear what the game plan was, could just be me though. Hard to judge the backs based on so poor ball but Scott didn't suggest the decision not to include him for a while was wrong. If Johnson isn't fit, I'd rather see Finn there than him v Japan.

Felt like SA had gears they could move throw if need be.

Last week we played poorly and won, this week played poorly and lost. Set piece will get a lot of the blame but next week there really needs to be some clear patterns and a bit of accuracy. We really haven't been too accurate over the last couple of weeks.

Wasn’t Scott just clearing rucks all day after Haining plods in to contact?

He certainly didn’t shine and got caught in a tough position for De Allende’s assist, but I’d rather we have another look vs Japan than continue Townsends endless chopping and changing without actually getting a clearer picture.

I don’t get this Russell at 12 thing. Sort of fun but seems like a waste of time to be honest. Was playing like a real spaz today. I know we fluked a try out of it but those backwards cross kicks are just dumb.

Not sure how much there is to say on this. Once again a huge amount of effort put in for very little return. Set piece fell apart and basically everybody forgot how to pass or hold on to the ball. Watching the intensity and accuracy of Ireland immediately after this it was like a different sport.

Ritchie and Price impressed I thought.

The lack of threat in midfield is a concern....or even threat of a threat.

I get the defensive importance of Harris and Johnson/A.N Other but I feel we have lost as much as we have gained.
We don't ship 4 tries and 30+ points...nor do we threaten to score that anymore either. we are back to being a 15-21 point team who hope to hold the opposition to similar.

Without the midfield occupying the opposition minds the only way it seems for the ball to get from Russell to the back 3 is a loopy pass with intercept written all over it or a cross-field kick. Not exactly high percentage options.

This is even more apparent when, as in yesterday, time, space, front foot ball and consequently Russell's options are all greatly reduced and pressurised.

What I want to see against Japan is high skill level and accurate passing. The sort of basics that work no matter the quality of ball or opposition.

We'll probably see Jones and maybe Sione...who will no doubt go well then instantly be discarded due to ....reasons.
Hopefully Redpath's knee/shoulder/talent are back in form by 6 nations or we will have become an easy team to figure out again.

Let's not get too doom and gloom here. We just beat Australia and we were in this game for much longer than many previous games against South Africa.

I agree about the midfield though. I think it is established that Johnson and Harris are first choice but, if so, they need to do what they do sharply. Harris isn't going to be the most dangerous runner but it means we need every move to be sharp for him to be put into holes.

Obviously, my dream is still a Johnson Jones or even a Redpath Jones midfield.

Having said all that - with the limited ball we had today I don't think we can blame the backs' attack. We scored two great tries. I didn't have a problem with the cross field kicks either in the circumstances. Pretty desperate but we needed something and I don't remember him going for any others that didn't come off (today).