England Training Squad - Now Featuring Both New and Old Messiahs

[Mellsblue]

I've always felt he was a bit of a square peg in a round hole but there's no denying we've done well whilst he's been in the position and he was a central figure in our long unbeaten run. Youngs/Ford/Farrell/Joseph was a combination that worked even though it looked like it maybe shouldn't. I'm not really a fan of Farrell and think he's massively overrated by the press but there's no obvious answer to what we need at 12 and Slade really didn't show up well there in the 6N.

Slade not showing up well in a relatively new position in a poor team developing a new attacking style. Shocking.
Not a huge fan of Slade, but really?

So should we keep out the experienced international captain in order to give Slade more game time there?

If you’re keeping him because he’s ‘the experienced international captain’ when do you drop him?

[Danno]

No-one other than Stephen and Eddie Jones are happy with him as Captain are they?

[FKAS]

Slade not showing up well in a relatively new position in a poor team developing a new attacking style. Shocking.
Not a huge fan of Slade, but really?

So should we keep out the experienced international captain in order to give Slade more game time there?

If you’re keeping him because he’s ‘the experienced international captain’ when do you drop him?

When a better 12 for the game plan becomes available. I'd actually take the captaincy off of him if it was my choice.

[Mellsblue]

So should we keep out the experienced international captain in order to give Slade more game time there?

If you’re keeping him because he’s ‘the experienced international captain’ when do you drop him?

When a better 12 for the game plan becomes available. I'd actually take the captaincy off of him if it was my choice.

Now I’m confused why you mentioned him being capt as a reason to keep him in the team.
As I said earlier, I don’t see him as good for the game plan. Not sure why anyone does as it’s completely alien to both his skill set and any system he’s played in before.

[Spiffy]

Can't help but feel someone is going to be quoted as having a "higher ceiling" here.

Do you think he’s unassailable?

I think he's come in and played extremely well for a player without loads of experience.

Would I say he's perfect? No. But I reckon it's a lot easier to take his skilletand develop it, than it is to take players who are maybe better play makers and get them to be able to offer what he does.

Plus, he takes away weapons from a couple of the sides we're going to need to beat at the pointy end of the world Cup, just through his ability to win the ball in the air.

Yes - Steward is no flash in the pan. I think he'll be around for some time to come.

[Scrumhead]

TBH I’m surprised there’s even a debate here. Steward is 21 and immediately looked comfortable at test level. I’m not proclaiming him as a world beater, but he’s got all the attributes to become a mainstay of the side and plenty of time to keep getting better.

To question his place in the side seems odd.

I get that there’s a lot of excitement about Arundell (including from me), but I would 100% be sticking with Steward at 15. If and when Arundell can demonstrate he’s got the defensive capabilities to back up his x-factor in attack, there might be more of a challenge, but right now, I’d be looking for a gentler introduction on the wing.

He's looked comfortable-in fact a bit better in fairness. But why wouldn't you debate anyone's position- especially in a team who clearly lacks cutting edge and is in need of improvement? As before, I like him as a player- but like most, he has some limitations. Not sure how you think playing wing is a gentler introduction, if you aren't familiar with the position. I- as an example- am not proposing Arundell as a replacement at all (subject to above provisos), but I do think that a pacy attacking threat from 15 is worth a look, given our midfield (or anyones)...as per above.

I'd also like to think that a mainstay of the side would ideally be a world beater

Pretty sure I’m not alone in that. I’m not suggesting playing on the wing at test level is easy by any means, but I do think it’s less exposed than 15. Our upcoming fixture list is not forgiving either.

I’m open to positions being debated, but who are we suggesting should be at 15? I’d wager it’s not Furbank, so that leaves either Malins, Freeman or Arundell. I’d argue Steward’s case to keep his shirt is stronger than anyone’s case to take it off him.

Arundell has massive potential and is clearly a talent, but his performance in the Premiership Cup final definitely showed a lack of maturity IMO. He wasn’t awful, but it was very evident that he was trying too hard. If he does play against Australia, I’d back them to expose his flaws a lot more ruthlessly than Worcester were able to.

[Oakboy]

I've always felt he was a bit of a square peg in a round hole but there's no denying we've done well whilst he's been in the position and he was a central figure in our long unbeaten run. Youngs/Ford/Farrell/Joseph was a combination that worked even though it looked like it maybe shouldn't. I'm not really a fan of Farrell and think he's massively overrated by the press but there's no obvious answer to what we need at 12 and Slade really didn't show up well there in the 6N.

Slade not showing up well in a relatively new position in a poor team developing a new attacking style. Shocking.
Not a huge fan of Slade, but really?

So should we keep out the experienced international captain in order to give Slade more game time there?

On the assumption that Tuilagi will not be fit regularly, yes.

[Mellsblue]

Steward strikes me as a new Farrell. Solid and dependable, with a world class attribute, but actually pretty limited in attack.

[Spiffy]

Steward strikes me as a new Farrell. Solid and dependable, with a world class attribute, but actually pretty limited in attack.

Steward is only 21 and at the start of his career. He has had 10 England caps, scored three tries and has, on the whole, played very well. I would expect him to improve with experience and add some attacking skills and self confidence as he goes. Also he may well be playing strictly to Jones orders in what he is attempting to do in a game. It's not long since the board was raving about him. If he is a tad limited in attack (and I don't think he's that bad) then those touted to replace him are probably limited in defence. He is not nailed on but will take some shifting from the 15 shirt.

[badback]

Steward strikes me as a new Farrell. Solid and dependable, with a world class attribute, but actually pretty limited in attack.

Steward is only 21 and at the start of his career. He has had 10 England caps, scored three tries and has, on the whole, played very well. I would expect him to improve with experience and add some attacking skills and self confidence as he goes. Also he may well be playing strictly to Jones orders in what he is attempting to do in a game. It's not long since the board was raving about him. If he is a tad limited in attack (and I don't think he's that bad) then those touted to replace him are probably limited in defence. He is not nailed on but will take some shifting from the 15 shirt.

And I’d add sure it’s nice to have 15 who can do everything brilliantly but to finally have one who looks composed, is rock solid especially under high ball, and has scored some tries too - well that’s not bad, not bad at all.

[Mellsblue]

Steward strikes me as a new Farrell. Solid and dependable, with a world class attribute, but actually pretty limited in attack.

Steward is only 21 and at the start of his career. He has had 10 England caps, scored three tries and has, on the whole, played very well. I would expect him to improve with experience and add some attacking skills and self confidence as he goes. Also he may well be playing strictly to Jones orders in what he is attempting to do in a game. It's not long since the board was raving about him. If he is a tad limited in attack (and I don't think he's that bad) then those touted to replace him are probably limited in defence. He is not nailed on but will take some shifting from the 15 shirt.

We all expected Farrell to improve, and he has to some degree, but he’s still the staccato player he’s always been. I find it funny that most of this board see through the wide ranging love for Farrell but have fallen in love with Steward when I see them as pretty similar players, on a macro level.

[Mellsblue]

Steward strikes me as a new Farrell. Solid and dependable, with a world class attribute, but actually pretty limited in attack.

Steward is only 21 and at the start of his career. He has had 10 England caps, scored three tries and has, on the whole, played very well. I would expect him to improve with experience and add some attacking skills and self confidence as he goes. Also he may well be playing strictly to Jones orders in what he is attempting to do in a game. It's not long since the board was raving about him. If he is a tad limited in attack (and I don't think he's that bad) then those touted to replace him are probably limited in defence. He is not nailed on but will take some shifting from the 15 shirt.

And I’d add sure it’s nice to have 15 who can do everything brilliantly but to finally have one who looks composed, is rock solid especially under high ball, and has scored some tries too - well that’s not bad, not bad at all.

He can do everything brilliantly?!?!?

[fivepointer]

Tbf Steward has done most things well. He's handled the step up and looks an accomplished player. My reservation with him is his lack of pace, which does limit what he can offer in attack.
Right now he's first choice but its right to consider alternatives.

[Oakboy]

Steward strikes me as a new Farrell. Solid and dependable, with a world class attribute, but actually pretty limited in attack.

Steward is only 21 and at the start of his career. He has had 10 England caps, scored three tries and has, on the whole, played very well. I would expect him to improve with experience and add some attacking skills and self confidence as he goes. Also he may well be playing strictly to Jones orders in what he is attempting to do in a game. It's not long since the board was raving about him. If he is a tad limited in attack (and I don't think he's that bad) then those touted to replace him are probably limited in defence. He is not nailed on but will take some shifting from the 15 shirt.

We all expected Farrell to improve, and he has to some degree, but he’s still the staccato player he’s always been. I find it funny that most of this board see through the wide ranging love for Farrell but have fallen in love with Steward when I see them as pretty similar players, on a macro level.

I don't think that's the reasoning. I like a solid FB in terms of physicality and an absolute 'it's mine' attitude under the high ball. Provided he has a bit of pace and/or can regularly get past the first defender he ticks the important boxes with extras to follow. Steward is Brown+. I want that. I do not want Daly/Furbank.

Of course, Jones will probably bugger Steward about till he loses confidence.

[Scrumhead]

I haven’t ‘fallen in love’ with Steward, but I think we should recognise that he’s made a very good start to his test career. I’m not closed off to the idea of alternatives in principle, but I don’t think Arundell scoring a couple of highlight reel tries is a reason to drop Steward. None of the other contenders (perhaps Malins?) have done enough to take the 15 spot from him so unless that happens, I’d like him to keep gaining experience. Particularly given we’re 12mths out from the RWC.

As far as weaknesses are concerned, he’s not lightning quick (but far from slow) and doesn’t have amazing footwork, but the main one seems to be that he didn’t attend the Goldington Road Finishing School.

Joking aside, Steward has been one of the few positives over the past 12mths. His positives far outweigh his negatives. I don’t get the calls for change.

[Mellsblue]

We all expected Farrell to improve, and he has to some degree, but he’s still the staccato player he’s always been. I find it funny that most of this board see through the wide ranging love for Farrell but have fallen in love with Steward when I see them as pretty similar players, on a macro level.

I don't think that's the reasoning. I like a solid FB in terms of physicality and an absolute 'it's mine' attitude under the high ball. Provided he has a bit of pace and/or can regularly get past the first defender he ticks the important boxes with extras to follow. Steward is Brown+. I want that. I do not want Daly/Furbank.

Of course, Jones will probably bugger Steward about till he loses confidence.

Was obviously have very different requirements from a fullback.
Steward doesn’t have pace and doesn’t regularly beat the first defender. He’s world class under the high ball but everything else needs a lot of work, IMO……. which should be expected at his age and experience. A lot of people seem to be anointing him as nailed on for the next 10 years which I find extremely premature.
We have such a low bar for what we expect out of backs in this country (insert sweeping statement emoji here).

[Mellsblue]

I haven’t ‘fallen in love’ with Steward, but I think we should recognise that he’s made a very good start to his test career. I’m not closed off to the idea of alternatives in principle, but I don’t think Arundell scoring a couple of highlight reel tries is a reason to drop Steward. None of the other contenders (perhaps Malins?) have done enough to take the 15 spot from him so unless that happens, I’d like him to keep gaining experience. Particularly given we’re 12mths out from the RWC.

As far as weaknesses are concerned, he’s not lightning quick (but far from slow) and doesn’t have amazing footwork, but the main one seems to be that he didn’t attend the Goldington Road Finishing School.

Joking aside, Steward has been one of the few positives over the past 12mths. His positives far outweigh his negatives. I don’t get the calls for change.

Agree with all of this, especially GRFS, obvs.
I’d add entering the line and link play as weaknesses, too. I just think a lot of people are over excited because he is so unbelievably good under the high ball, especially when we’ve had Daly stink the place out in that respect for so long.
People can worry about his limitations (and not think he’s nailed on for 10 years) whilst not wanting him to be dropped…. not until RICH LANE!!! is fit.

[Oakboy]

So, is Banquo right - the only two nailed-on starters are Itoje and Curry? If so, cohesion (if the XV involves younger players) is years away. Shame we only have months.

[Scrumhead]

No. I don’t think Banquo is right. Some players are rightly ‘nailed on’ whereas others are because the alternatives clearly aren’t as good.

For example, Genge has pushed himself to the front of queue for the 1 jersey and is now nailed on IMO. Barring injury, Sinckler is more or less a certainty at tighthead. Not necessarily because he deserves it, but because Stuart and Heyes aren’t genuinely challenging him for it. I don’t think either of those are ‘Eddie choices’. I think we’d probably all start them too.

As far as ‘Eddie choices’, I think Curry, Itoje, Lawes, Youngs, Farrell and Tuilagi (if fit), are all nailed on. If Farrell is picked at 10, you could quite easily add Slade to that list. Ho starts out of LCD vs. George is an ongoing debate, but they’re nailed on as far as the 2 and 16 shirts are concerned.

They might not be quite as ‘nailed on’ , but I also think that May and Watson come straight back in if they are fit and in any kind of form. Their replacements haven’t really made a sufficient challenge to take their starting spots.

[Which Tyler]

[A lot of people seem to be anointing him as nailed on for the next 10 years

Can you quote any?
I can't say I've noticed even 1 person doing that. Anywhere.

[Mellsblue]

[A lot of people seem to be anointing him as nailed on for the next 10 years

Can you quote any?
I can't say I've noticed even 1 person doing that. Anywhere.

Can’t be bothered to search but people have said this…. if not verbatim, obvs.

[Which Tyler]

Then I'll stick with thinking you're inflating things said out of all proportion.

I've seen plenty of "Steward is a FB for now, and it's really too late for a new challenger in the next 15 months" into "nailed on for the next decade"

[Mellsblue]

Then I'll stick with thinking you're inflating things said out of all proportion.

I've seen plenty of "Steward is a FB for now, and it's really too late for a new challenger in the next 15 months" into "nailed on for the next decade"

Cool.

[Banquo]

I've always felt he was a bit of a square peg in a round hole but there's no denying we've done well whilst he's been in the position and he was a central figure in our long unbeaten run. Youngs/Ford/Farrell/Joseph was a combination that worked even though it looked like it maybe shouldn't. I'm not really a fan of Farrell and think he's massively overrated by the press but there's no obvious answer to what we need at 12 and Slade really didn't show up well there in the 6N.

Slade not showing up well in a relatively new position in a poor team developing a new attacking style. Shocking.
Not a huge fan of Slade, but really?

So should we keep out the experienced international captain in order to give Slade more game time there?

why not? He's a sh*t captain.

[Mikey Brown]

I think it’s great we have a rock of a fullback available for the next 10 years or so and know he already looks comfortable at this level. Doesn’t mean nobody could displace him though and I’m not sure I’ve see anyone go further than that.