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Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:53 pm
by Mikey Brown
Banquo wrote:
fivepointer wrote:It is incredibly harsh to take a player off early. After all, the coach picks the team and expects most of them to last the course, or at least stay for most of the game. If the player isnt up to it, its legitimate to ask why was he picked to start with?
The Isiekwe early sub in SA really peeved me. Isiekwe shouldnt have been on that tour, he simply wasnt ready to play international rugby. Jones got that selection badly wrong.
Pro rugby and esp intl rugby are harsh. How you respond is what counts, both as coach and player.
Well exactly. But how did he respond/develop? Maybe we don’t know everything. This wasn’t me arguing for Jones to apologise to Burrell (though it would have been a good mark of the man to keep in touch in some way) or that Burrell was robbed of future caps. I couldn’t say how much it was down to Burrell but we dominated the half hour following his removal and that was major for the team in a number of ways.

It’s just frustrating as a fan, with so much media exposure and Jones seemingly loving the press attention so much, that he is so inconsistent in everything he does. The majority of those who are hopeful about our World Cup performance (having accepted the recent poor results, despite years of him saying “I’m just picking the best 23 for this game”) are largely basing it on the fact we also happened to be absolutely shite at this same point in the previous cycle.

Sure results don’t always go your way (and I’ve been a Scotland supporter as long as I’ve watched rugby) but the constant chopping and changing, weird man-management and awkward, bitter media outbursts just make it really hard to enjoy being an England supporter a lot of the time. Worrying that a player is going to be absolutely ruined by joining up with England doesn’t seem right. As I said I’m sure Collier will be fine, it’s all just a bit weird.

He has no duty to share every detail, but it’s hard not to question the work he puts in to mind-games and throwing people off the scent (all the ninth forward stuff he admitted was complete bollocks) when he can’t consistently get the team (players or coaching staff) to put it together on the pitch.

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:15 pm
by Puja
fivepointer wrote:It is incredibly harsh to take a player off early. After all, the coach picks the team and expects most of them to last the course, or at least stay for most of the game. If the player isnt up to it, its legitimate to ask why was he picked to start with?
The Isiekwe early sub in SA really peeved me. Isiekwe shouldnt have been on that tour, he simply wasnt ready to play international rugby. Jones got that selection badly wrong.
With hindsight, you are right, but nobody was saying that about Isiekwe at the time, especially since we had a bit of a run of lock injuries for that tour. His selection was considered very much an "If he's good enough, he's old enough," situation and I remember talking him up to a mate, as a player to look out for in that first game.

Puja

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:46 am
by Oakboy
Puja wrote:
fivepointer wrote:It is incredibly harsh to take a player off early. After all, the coach picks the team and expects most of them to last the course, or at least stay for most of the game. If the player isnt up to it, its legitimate to ask why was he picked to start with?
The Isiekwe early sub in SA really peeved me. Isiekwe shouldnt have been on that tour, he simply wasnt ready to play international rugby. Jones got that selection badly wrong.
With hindsight, you are right, but nobody was saying that about Isiekwe at the time, especially since we had a bit of a run of lock injuries for that tour. His selection was considered very much an "If he's good enough, he's old enough," situation and I remember talking him up to a mate, as a player to look out for in that first game.

Puja
But that is the whole point, Puja. We sound off with our opinions based on limited knowledge and (often) only TV watching to make judgements. The coaching crew has a huge amount more information to go on. Over a period (with hindsight), though, do they get it right to an acceptable extent (even compared to us)? And, harder to understand, why do they get such a significant number of decisions wrong, such as Isiekwe at the time?

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:09 am
by Scrumhead
Because no coach (even the ones you like) is infallible.

Any coach in any sport picks the team they think is best based upon all sorts of data points and performance in training. If a player sh*ts the bed when it comes to it, I see that as more of a reflection on the player than the coach.

Eddie is one of the most brutal when it comes to subbing players early, but there must be countless examples of coaches making a ‘tactical’ shift at half time which is often code for ‘x is having a mare’.

As usual, I think you’re just looking for sticks to bash Eddie with when what you’re criticising him for can be applied to so many coaches.

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:00 pm
by badback
I thought it was harsh when Burrell was overlooked for he who shall not be named. Then I thought it was good he was given another chance. Then I thought it was harsh he was subbed so early - but then we won and so it seemed like a very tough but good call to me. Why he never really featured again I don’t know. At his best I thought he was a good Manu #2. That whole center position seems cursed for England.

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:39 am
by twitchy
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... up-looming


The six key questions England's tour Down Under must answer with World Cup looming



During his England tenure, when he explained selection calls, Stuart Lancaster often used the term “credit in the bank” in reference to the loyalty earned by experienced players.

A similar principle applies to coaches. On succeeding Lancaster, Eddie Jones built up plenty of goodwill between 2016 and 2017. After a dip in 2018, a run to the 2019 World Cup final replenished his popularity.

This four-year cycle has been odd for everyone, but England have had a particularly strange time. In 2020, following a blip in Paris, their ferocious defence eked out results and they even picked up a pair of trophies.

Over the last 18 months, though, there have been two lean Six Nations campaigns either side of an explicit promise to invigorate their conservative, kick-heavy approach.

Since the beginning of 2021, England have suffered six Test losses from 15 matches. Of their nine wins, eight have been at Twickenham. The other came at the Stadio Olimpico.

Frustrating defeats have been compounded by recurring requests for patience because, so obviously, the 2023 World Cup overshadows more immediate priorities. That tone – close to patronising in a ‘don’t fret, trust us’ way – is grating on fans, more so because tangible developments have not been easy to identify.

All cloak and little dagger would be a reasonable way to describe England’s World Cup build-up. There has been a purgatorial limbo about their 2022. Fixtures have come and gone without providing much in the way of new information. Consequently, credit in the Bank of Jones has dwindled.

Supporters want answers, or at least validation that their side is on the right track. They do not want more reassurances that everything will be alright in 2023, as they have been offered in recent post-match debriefs and by the RFU’s tournament reviews.

Jones’ stock soared in 2016, when England went Down Under and whitewashed Australia with performances that exuded clarity. Six years on, with the Wallabies threatening a resurgence under Dave Rennie, this tour must reflect purpose and conviction.

It is not that there are no extenuating circumstances. Senior statesmen are unavailable. It is just that people have grown tired of hearing about extenuating circumstances. Fortunately, this series is bound to answer a few of these questions.
Are assistant coaches contributing?

We begin with the query that is most assured of a resolution. Players mentioned below could fall victim to injury. Jones’ coaching team will have to stay the course. And they need to illustrate progress.

Last September, the Rugby Football Union announced the arrivals of Richard Cockerill and Anthony Seibold to join Martin Gleeson and Matt Proudfoot under Jones.

A press release issued explained that the coaching line-up was “finalised”. John Mitchell, Simon Amor and Jason Ryles had all left the carousel, leaving a curious collection of lieutenants bound for the World Cup.

Proudfoot and Cockerill will have been reasonably happy with some strong mauling in the Six Nations. Those two should be excited about the uncertainty around Australia’s pack. Seibold, the defence guru, has clearly encouraged more aggressive jackalling. Gleeson’s attack showed promise last autumn before stalling.

But none of them appear to have definitively stamped their imprint on England’s displays as yet. Steve Borthwick, Scott Wisemantel and Mitchell, conversely, seemed to shape team strategy.

Jones is insistent that his regular chopping and changing of backroom staff stimulates the environment rather than disrupting it. Now would be a good time to vindicate that theory.
Does the Smith-Farrell axis have a future?

On paper, a midfield union of Marcus Smith and Owen Farrell makes sense and could drive ‘New England’. The idea will be for the pair to dovetail as distributors. Sometimes, Smith will slip to second-receiver and attempt to pick off stretched defences. With quick ball, the 23-year-old may push flatter.

Farrell can either play pull-back passes to give his junior partner room or sit deeper and use his boot to find space in the opposition back-field. If the combination copes against Samu Kerevi, then it is defensively sound. Of course, the effectiveness of a Smith-Farrell double-act will depend upon infrastructure around it.


Can backline power make up for absent Tuilagi?

Joe Cokanasiga will be handy if Joe Marchant wears 13 alongside Smith and Farrell because the brawny wing could be a gain-line focal point. His tip-on pass to Jack Walker against the Barbarians, demonstrating a capacity to pop up in unconventional positions, was one of the more promising moments of a grim debacle.

Otherwise, the flinty Guy Porter is a potential foil for two passers and can also cover inside centre. Fraser Dingwall supplements Dan Biggar and Rory Hutchinson at Northampton. Another Saint, the exciting Tommy Freeman, has been carving out-to-in angles on club duty.

All of this, plus the bustle of Jack Nowell, should provide England with the thrust that they need without Manu Tuilagi. And, although Tuilagi attended a training camp in May to familiarise himself with Smith and Farrell, his presence next year cannot be guaranteed.
Are returning veterans up to it?

Flagship omissions following the cull of 2021, Billy and Mako Vunipola are back. The former is England’s sole specialist No 8 and, while Tom Curry may feature at the base of the scrum, he will shoulder a vital carrying load. Mako is now below Ellis Genge in the propping pecking order, but can have an impact in the series.

Danny Care has been talked up, too. The scrum-half’s last Test appearances was almost four years ago, yet there is nobody better to enliven phase-play.

Whether or not this trio would have been included were Alex Dombrandt fit and Ben Youngs around does not matter. They are in Australia and have an opportunity to crash into the World Cup reckoning.


Is Stuart a Test-class tighthead prop?

The identity of Kyle Sinckler’s back-up needed resolving before the Bristol man pulled out of this trip and Will Stuart, who has 20 caps, will be eager to establish himself this month. Joe Heyes, the 23-year-old Leicester Tigers tighthead, will nip at his heels.

Perhaps it is unfair to single out Stuart when there are others out to repay faith and prove themselves. Harry Randall, Charlie Ewels and Jonny Hill would all occupy this category.
Could Lawes revert to lock?

This very question was met with a smile from Jones during the Six Nations. Lawes’ last start at lock for England remains the World Cup final, with a perceived lack of scrummaging heft keeping him at blindside flanker. That should not stop us wondering and there are signs that Jones is considering a rethink.

Sam Underhill and Tom Curry started in tandem against the Barbarians, even after Dombrandt’s withdrawal, and the England head coach has predicted that Australia will engage in long bouts of kick-tennis in an attempt to restrict the number of line-outs.

That would lessen the need for Lawes to complement two locks as a third elite jumper. And it could energise England because a second-row partnership of Lawes and Maro Itoje would free up Jones to field three of Jack Willis, Lewis Ludlam, Curry, Underhill and Billy Vunipola. As many as four of them could decorate a matchday 23.

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:23 am
by Oakboy
I have never understood the perceived lack of strength in Lawes at lock. Weaker in the scrum than Ewels, for example????

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:29 am
by Puja
Oakboy wrote:I have never understood the perceived lack of strength in Lawes at lock. Weaker in the scrum than Ewels, for example????
I think it's one of those things that's very hard for an outsider to the camp to judge, cause you're never going to be able to separate out who's contributing best in the second row from just watching a game on television. I mean, who would've picked Kruis as a power scrummager before that report came out?!

Puja

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:15 am
by Oakboy
Puja wrote:
Oakboy wrote:I have never understood the perceived lack of strength in Lawes at lock. Weaker in the scrum than Ewels, for example????
I think it's one of those things that's very hard for an outsider to the camp to judge, cause you're never going to be able to separate out who's contributing best in the second row from just watching a game on television. I mean, who would've picked Kruis as a power scrummager before that report came out?!

Puja
Fair comment. However, in the past, particularly when Lawes was paired with Launchbury, I can't remember a single mention of the issue. Surely, the front row then would have known and the problem, if there was one, would have been dealt with. It just does not gel, somehow. Maybe, it's only part of the story.

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:39 pm
by Mikey Brown
It is very difficult to know as an on-looker. I've wondered about Lawes because he's generally quite slight (by intl. lock standards) and you occasionally see his arse go up in the air at a scrum, but I don't imagine there's any stats that a casual fan can call on to really know one way or the other.

Launch is generally a tight-head lock though and Lawes/Itoje both loose, right? The priority that certain players move to tight-head when paired is pretty much the only way I've found to judge it. Can't recall who was where in the final?

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:55 pm
by Mellsblue
If it wasn’t a problem in the past it might be now. He’s lost quite a few kg since moving to 6 full time at Northampton and, as someone has already stated, he wasn’t the biggest lock in the first place.

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:09 pm
by Raggs
Don't think I've ever seen Lawes play tighthead lock when paired with anyone. Kruis always did, launch mostly did.

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:08 pm
by Oakboy
Raggs wrote:Don't think I've ever seen Lawes play tighthead lock when paired with anyone. Kruis always did, launch mostly did.
Since any of them only get considered as Itoje's partner, what is his scrummaging capacity and who does he pair with best? Is the positional aspect a big factor in Ewels' selection?

What about Isiekwe? Is he bigger/stronger than Lawes?

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:32 pm
by Blandy
I seem to remember Itoje packing down in the second row even for some of the games he was picked at blindside, so presumably a strong scrumager? or at least stronger than whoever was playing lock (so potentially Lawes?).

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:08 pm
by SDHoneymonster
Raggs wrote:Don't think I've ever seen Lawes play tighthead lock when paired with anyone. Kruis always did, launch mostly did.
Didn't Launchbury wear 4 and Lawes 5, as Lawes generally called the lineout? Might still have scrummaged the other way round though.

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:40 pm
by Raggs
SDHoneymonster wrote:
Raggs wrote:Don't think I've ever seen Lawes play tighthead lock when paired with anyone. Kruis always did, launch mostly did.
Didn't Launchbury wear 4 and Lawes 5, as Lawes generally called the lineout? Might still have scrummaged the other way round though.
Definitely scrummaged the other way round. I think lock numbers is probably the most pointless numbering on the pitch :D at least flankers numbers can usually tell you which side of the scrum they'll play on.

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:44 pm
by Mikey Brown
It's all gone out the window now but 4 was generally always the tight-head anyway, no? Some players just have a preferred number though it seems. Itoje and Launch generally both wear 4 but they don't perform the same roles.

Seems like Itoje played the whole 2017 6 nations with Launch/Lawes at lock, but never really noticed who was where in the scrum.

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:15 pm
by Banquo
Raggs wrote:
SDHoneymonster wrote:
Raggs wrote:Don't think I've ever seen Lawes play tighthead lock when paired with anyone. Kruis always did, launch mostly did.
Didn't Launchbury wear 4 and Lawes 5, as Lawes generally called the lineout? Might still have scrummaged the other way round though.
at least flankers numbers can usually tell you which side of the scrum they'll play on.
well yes, assuming you know they are the other way round in SA or that in France they play left and right often :). But yes on locks. Also centre numbers can be misleading- back in the day, 12 played left centre, 13 right; this still continues in some places eg France. And Guscott refused to wear 13 :)

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:20 pm
by Banquo
Mikey Brown wrote:It's all gone out the window now but 4 was generally always the tight-head anyway, no? Some players just have a preferred number though it seems. Itoje and Launch generally both wear 4 but they don't perform the same roles.

Seems like Itoje played the whole 2017 6 nations with Launch/Lawes at lock, but never really noticed who was where in the scrum.
Yep, 4 historically has sort of defaulted to squat front jumping scrummaging lock. My late father in law - played for Yorkshire many times at lock and selected for the north- always used to say that you had to pay real attention to whether a lock scrummaged on the left or right (ie loose or tighthead side, ignore the number on their back) and make sure you didn't pick them 'out of position'. He said he could scrummage either side, but very few other locks could.

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:34 pm
by Which Tyler
Banquo wrote:well yes, assuming you know they are the other way round in SA or that in France they play left and right often :). But yes on locks. Also centre numbers can be misleading- back in the day, 12 played left centre, 13 right; this still continues in some places eg France. And Guscott refused to wear 13 :)
Not just Guscott - the Bath 13 shirt was retired in WWII IIRC

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:35 pm
by Banquo
Which Tyler wrote:
Banquo wrote:well yes, assuming you know they are the other way round in SA or that in France they play left and right often :). But yes on locks. Also centre numbers can be misleading- back in the day, 12 played left centre, 13 right; this still continues in some places eg France. And Guscott refused to wear 13 :)
Not just Guscott - the Bath 13 shirt was retired in WWII IIRC
pretty sure he didnt wear it for england, not sure re lions

Edit- we are both right ish- Bath retired the 13 shirt in 1919 after a player died through injury, but Guscott wouldn’t wear 13 for England or the Lions…until the 97 tour for some unknown reason.

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:06 am
by Which Tyler
The reason is known - because the Bath jersey had been retired.
Find all also spent a fair bit of time refusing to wear 13, to the confusion of many when he'd wear 12 whilst playing OC for England (of course, he also played IC a fair bit, but it caused a LOT of discussion at the time - ah, the early days of I ternet message boards)

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:12 am
by Danno
Which Tyler wrote:The reason is known - because the Bath jersey had been retired.
Find all also spent a fair bit of time refusing to wear 13, to the confusion of many when he'd wear 12 whilst playing OC for England (of course, he also played IC a fair bit, but it caused a LOT of discussion at the time - ah, the early days of I ternet message boards)
My tired brain has spent a full three minutes deciphering that typo :)

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:20 am
by Which Tyler
The misplaced space?

That'd be "internet"



I would apologise for the typo, but that'd imply having way more intention to proof read than I do - those days are long gone.

Re: Australia Tour Squad

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:40 am
by Danno
Which Tyler wrote:The misplaced space?

That'd be "internet"



I would apologise for the typo, but that'd imply having way more intention to proof read than I do - those days are long gone.
Nah, Find all/Tindall

No need to apologise, you saved me having to load up Wordle to kick start the old noggin