RugbyRebels

I thought the locks were pretty good TBH. Itoje is world class so will always make a difference, but I’m not sure I understand why you’re flagging it as a concern based upon yesterday’s game?

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Sun Nov 09, 2025 10:30 am I thought the locks were pretty good TBH. Itoje is world class so will always make a difference, but I’m not sure I understand why you’re flagging it as a concern based upon yesterday’s game?

I was looking for confirmation of what I thought I saw - sometimes it's hard to be objectively reflective on a single viewing. To me the pairing was adequate against Fiji at set piece. Against a NZ scrum or lineout, I'd have concerns. In the loose, I thought they were found wanting a bit which I'd have expected to be their stronger suit.

The locks were fine. Coles has definitely taken a step up and looks an accomplished international player now.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 09, 2025 8:45 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Sat Nov 08, 2025 9:49 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Nov 08, 2025 9:30 pm

Your opinion (not that I am disagreeing) makes Farrell at 12 for the 6N all too likely. I'm starting to think that Marcus at 10 is the best way to go.

You fancy a Marcus 10 and Ice Man 12 combi for the 6N? Bold call that one.

No, you misinterpret my thoughts. I want Marcus at 10 to avoid having Farrell at 12. Dingwall is not adding anything constructive or surprising. As a steady link between Marcus and Freeman he might be adequate. I would have kept the Saints group together for this match but SB stuck Lawrence in. Now, with Fin having underwhelmed and Mitchell having a mediocre game, we need a real spark and it could come from Marcus at 10.

Lawrence is a bit of an enigma. Many applaud his selection as a 'real 13' but I don't see it. He has played well for England but at 12. Alongside Slade's great hands it was an OK partnership. I'd pick neither at centre now though I would still consider Slade at FB while Furbank is unavailable.

Atkinson was lauded but he always looked to have daft mistakes in his make-up. Woodward's omission from the A squad was a glaring mistake. Ojomoh was disappointing v NZ A.

So, at 12: Dingwall, Atkinson, Lawrence, Slade, Ojomoh, Earl? Or bloody Farrell? I think it could be him if SB picks Ford or Fin at 10. Just don't suggest I want it.

Selecting England's tactically weakest flyhalf isn't a recipe for not having Farrell in there. We could really do with Marcus following Mitchell's example and working hard on his tactical game.

I thought Fin Smith was fine yesterday. Difficult against a Fiji side that'll rearrange your ribs at any opportunity and when your centres aren't giving you much in the way of options. I think we'll go back to Ford for NZ, 12 is an issue. Lawrence has tended to defend at 12 and attack at 13 irrelevant of what number is on his back. We could do that again with Freeman alongside him. Be limited in terms of distribution but if Marcus is going to be at 15 that would help mitigate that particular issue. NZ left Jordan alone at the back for much of the Scotland game, if they do the same against England we will target that.

Telegraph saying Daly in contention for NZ.

I think I was watching a different game. Forme, in the backs, FSmith and Lawrence were the pick and should start next week, whilst Mitchell and Freeman disappointing.

Up front for 30mins LCD and CCS were top drawer. Props and George all went okay, locks looked a bit powder puff. I like Pepper.
Itoje absolute class off bench.

twitchy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 09, 2025 6:47 pm Telegraph saying Daly in contention for NZ.

I wouldn't be against having him at 15 per se (which is a hell of a movement for me), but it's a hells of an ask to come straight back in against the All Blacks after so long out.

Puja

I understand that dingwall didn't have a good game, but I don't see that as him being "not good enough" more that the team needs more time together. He's never going to be smashing or stepping fijian centres (I know, all you know this). He has shown he can do it against top level club competition (french,irish etc) not just prem.

twitchy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 7:52 am I understand that dingwall didn't have a good game, but I don't see that as him being "not good enough" more that the team needs more time together. He's never going to be smashing or stepping fijian centres (I know, all you know this). He has shown he can do it against top level club competition (french,irish etc) not just prem.

For me the disappointment has been his passing. I'm perfectly happy with him as the glue player in the midfield but currently he's failing to link the play together. I can get past the fact he's an at best average tackler and won't carry physically but he's got to then bring the organisation and distribution. Awful forced pass last weekend gave Australia their only points of the game and this week he just couldn't play flat to the line where Smith wanted him with balls not going to hand or being released slowing the attack.

He's very much at risk of losing that shirt.

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 12:32 am

twitchy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 09, 2025 6:47 pm Telegraph saying Daly in contention for NZ.

I wouldn't be against having him at 15 per se (which is a hell of a movement for me), but it's a hells of an ask to come straight back in against the All Blacks after so long out.

Puja

He's reinvented himself well. He'd be a good fit tactically for the ABs game as they don't compete in the air a great deal and more look for the tackle and jackle. Daly being quick enough to beat the first man or return with interest off his left boot could work well.

As you say, hell of a time for your first game of the season.

twitchy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 7:52 am I understand that dingwall didn't have a good game, but I don't see that as him being "not good enough" more that the team needs more time together. He's never going to be smashing or stepping fijian centres (I know, all you know this). He has shown he can do it against top level club competition (french,irish etc) not just prem.

You are right that Dingwall is Dingwall. He is solidly reliable in defence. He can be a useful cohesive link in attack. I'd guess (just from watching him) that he has a sharp rugby brain. Surrounded by more mercurial talent, he could be a functional part of a good team. Put simply, if there is nobody better, pick him.

I said before the game that SB should have retained the Saints continuity. However, if Mitchell was struggling because our breakdown was poor whoever was picked in midfield would have struggled to look special.

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Nov 09, 2025 9:24 pm I think I was watching a different game. Forme, in the backs, FSmith and Lawrence were the pick and should start next week, whilst Mitchell and Freeman disappointing.

Up front for 30mins LCD and CCS were top drawer. Props and George all went okay, locks looked a bit powder puff. I like Pepper.
Itoje absolute class off bench.

You'll have to explain your opinion of Lawrence's performance because I saw very little to justify picking him against NZ. On several occasions I thought he looked confused about what he should be doing, for example.

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Nov 09, 2025 9:24 pm I think I was watching a different game. Forme, in the backs, FSmith and Lawrence were the pick and should start next week, whilst Mitchell and Freeman disappointing.

You sure you hadn’t put a 6N game on instead? The tech can be difficult fur gentlemen of a certain vintage.

Dingers has been poor, and I’m not convinced he’s test standard, but for someone who’s whole game is about bringing others into the game in the face of the oppo, and the rapport/familiarity that is required to do this, then chopping and changing those either side of him whilst a new system is being implemented… setup to fail as is standard for England’s inside backs over the last goodness knows how long.

Wibble highlighted in his videos elements of Dingers doing his job really well but it's hard to tell if he has been effective in games without a detailed re-watch. I noticed him stepping in at first receiver a fair bit but, between him, Mitchell and FSmith, I don't think we controlled the game against Fiji very well.

I wonder if having Daly or MSmith at full back as the second receiver will enable Lawrence to play 12 at the weekend?

Longer term I think Atkinson offers most of what Dingers does but with significantly more athleticism. It's a shame he is injured as a FSmith (or Ford), Atkinson, Freeman midfield excites me.

Curry has to start. We need quicker ball and better control at the breakdown. Who with, though? I'd keep Pepper at 6 and play Curry at 7. The safe option would be Earl at 8, I suppose.

My bias - between Atkinson, Ojomoh and Dingwall, I'd have had them... in that order from the start. But that would be refusing to start from where we are.
But Atkinson is injured, and Dingwall has been given first refusal (which may well be down to stuff we can't see - given that he's a vice-captain already!).

He's not impressed me in white, but he's also not been particularly bad, just a bit meh - whilst I still think the other two offer something that Dingwall just can't.

For me, Dingwall keeps the starting shirt for the Autumn, whilst Ojomoh trains with the squad (he's been in throughout, just dropped out in order to play for EngA).
Unless everything managed to click for Dingwall, I'd be lining Ojomoh up to be the starting 12 for the 6N (not sure when Atkinson is due back to rejoin the fight).

Lawrence is our only 13, and should start there.
Back 3 is either IFW, Freeman (15), Roebuck; or IFW, Daly (15), Freeman.
If tough decisions need to be made, then make them, rather than dodging and spoiling a different area of the team by indecision with the back3.



I'd bring Ford back in for NZ, and give Fin another shot for Argentina (yes, yes, I know). Whoever starts at FH, we need either Marcus on the bench, or a proper 5:3 split (ideally both).
If Spencer has to be involved, he needs to start - he's generally been decent when starting, but an absolute handbrake off the bench. We really need a better 2nd choice SH, and for them to be a viable bench option.


Up front, the tight 5 basically picks itself, and I absolutely see the option of only starting one of Genge and Stuart, with the other providing impact later on.
In the backrow, Earl and CCS just don't work well together - they both need someone else to do the bulk of the donkey work, to allow them the energy to make their impacts. Pick any 2 of TCurry, Underhill & Pepper alongside 1 of them, with the other on the bench.

1. Genge, 2. LCD, 3. Heyes
4. Itoje, 5. Chessum
6. Pepper, 8. CCS, 7. TCurry

9. Spencer, 10. Ford
12. Dingwall, 13. Lawrence
11. IFW, 15. Steward/Daly, 14. Freeman

16. George, 17. Baxter, 18. Stuart, 19 Coles, 20. Earl (21. Underhill if we must)
21. Mitchell, 22. MSmith, 23. Roebuck/Arundell (neither if we really have to)

Spencer has been average at best when starting. The only occasion when it's worth starting him is if we are going to have him blitzing Riogard from the breakdown. If we aren't using that tactic he can spend at least 70 mins of the game watching from the sidelines.

Freeman back to 13 is a must for me. Lawrence looks patchy when having to cover that channel in defence at international level. Freeman's pace and physicality make him far more useful at doing that, against Australia he did that job very well. I'm expecting closer to the side that played Australia but with the Fiji front row. Steward at fullback the most likely selection casualty as I don't think NZ will kick to contest so he'll probably miss out and come back in for the Argentina game.

I would like to see a Lawrence and Freeman midfield trialled. Freeman moving into at 12 in attack but defending at 13 switching with Lawrence. Freeman is the better carrier into traffic. Leaves England short of a midfield distributor though which would mean Marcus at 15 who would have the take a bigger role in the midfield. Would be a substantial attacking re-organisation which we might not fancy.

Id go for the following:

Genge; LCD; Heyes; Itoje; Chessum; Pepper / Underhill; Curry; Earl; Mitchell; Ford; IFW; Lawrence; Freeman; Roebuck; Daly / MSmith
Baxter; George; Stuart; Coles; CCS; Pollock; Spencer; MSmith / Daly

Tough call between Pepper and Underhill - I lean towards Pepper as he's a reasonable lineout option but you know Underhill will deliver a good performance if selected.

I wouldn't have either on the bench as I want Pollock there as him switching with Earl worked so well and feel that bringing on fresh legs at lock will allow us to respond to NZ bringing their impact front row on.

Bringing Daly in with no recent game time makes no sense to me when Slade is in the squad and playing really well for Exeter.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 12:51 pm Bringing Daly in with no recent game time makes no sense to me when Slade is in the squad and playing really well for Exeter.

He's not a full-back though, except in absolute extremis. Slade playing really well at 13 for Exeter seems irrelevant to any discussion about 15, and that goes doubly considering his history of playing well at club and then disappointing for England.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 10:57 amIf Spencer has to be involved, he needs to start - he's generally been decent when starting, but an absolute handbrake off the bench. We really need a better 2nd choice SH, and for them to be a viable bench option.

You are Austin Healey and I claim my £5.

I **kinda** see where you're coming from and entirely agree that he's a better starting option than a bench player, but even with that, Mitchell is just indisputably the superior player and I would rather try to play him for 70-80 minutes than try to get the best out of Spencer.

Puja

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Nov 09, 2025 9:24 pm I think I was watching a different game. Forme, in the backs, FSmith and Lawrence were the pick and should start next week, whilst Mitchell and Freeman disappointing.

Up front for 30mins LCD and CCS were top drawer. Props and George all went okay, locks looked a bit powder puff. I like Pepper.
Itoje absolute class off bench.

Totally agree on F Smith. He had a good game. Lawrence was a little up and down, as was Mitchell.

I would be happy to let wiser heads than me decide who gets the 10 shirt, because while I think Ford is one of the best 10s around, and Fin failed to impress...there's more to consider than that.

Otherwise, it has to be:
Genge, LCD, Stuart
Itoje, Chessum
Curry, Earl, Underhill
Mitchell, FSmith/Ford
IFW, Dingwall, Freeman, Roebuck
MSmith

George, Baxter, Heyes, Coles, Pepper, Pollock, Spencer, Lawrence

Daly would have a chance at 23...I would love to involve Arundell...but otherwise I think that's our best team on paper. And balance in the backrow.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 10:45 am Curry has to start. We need quicker ball and better control at the breakdown. Who with, though? I'd keep Pepper at 6 and play Curry at 7. The safe option would be Earl at 8, I suppose.

I’d reunite Curry and Underhill with Earl at 8 and CCS and Pepper on the bench.

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 4:26 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 10, 2025 10:45 am Curry has to start. We need quicker ball and better control at the breakdown. Who with, though? I'd keep Pepper at 6 and play Curry at 7. The safe option would be Earl at 8, I suppose.

I’d reunite Curry and Underhill with Earl at 8 and CCS and Pepper on the bench.

You could be right but I just don't like that starting trio. With CCS now probably covering lock thanks to Chessum's injury would you still do that?