RugbyRebels

Coco wrote:

WaspInWales wrote:

WaspInWales wrote:
That said, I wonder if this would've ended differently if Black Lives Matter were armed and occupying a federal building for weeks?

Good time to revisit the above comment:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37795012

Acquitted for a 41 day armed takeover of a federal building.

Justice - US style, although I would not recommend any person, or persons of darker skin tone to try a similar line of protest against things that they feel a sense of injustice over.

You realize there are ranchers of every color supporting this? It really isnt a matter of color. This has to do with the feds taking over massive land when this land should be for local or state use. The only person shot dead was a white protester i believe.

I didn't realise that as I'd only seen white people in the articles.

My point about colour was more the fact that some innocent black men have to do very little in order to get shot and killed by the police, whereas these douchbags take control of a federal building for a significant amount of time, whilst armed but manage to not only get away with the loss of one life in a skirmish but then manage to escape conviction for their action.

I wonder if a Black Lives Matter group that took up arms in a similar building would be afforded the same outcome?

That was my point.

Also.. This stemmed from the protest in Nevada. There is a lot more at play than what is being reported openly. It seems the land some of these ranchers were grazing cattle on, is being looked at as a site for Lithium mining. Supposedly, the guy who would be mining it is a Canadian gentleman by the name of Frank Gusteria...who also just happens to be on the board of The Clinton Foundation. That's the word on the street anyway.

Bottom line is that the federal govt owns about 75% of the land in 11 western states where they dictate the use of the land via the EPA. It is nuts and absolutely out of control.

WaspInWales wrote:

Coco wrote:

WaspInWales wrote:
Good time to revisit the above comment:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37795012

Acquitted for a 41 day armed takeover of a federal building.

Justice - US style, although I would not recommend any person, or persons of darker skin tone to try a similar line of protest against things that they feel a sense of injustice over.

You realize there are ranchers of every color supporting this? It really isnt a matter of color. This has to do with the feds taking over massive land when this land should be for local or state use. The only person shot dead was a white protester i believe.

I didn't realise that as I'd only seen white people in the articles.

My point about colour was more the fact that some innocent black men have to do very little in order to get shot and killed by the police, whereas these douchbags take control of a federal building for a significant amount of time, whilst armed but manage to not only get away with the loss of one life in a skirmish but then manage to escape conviction for their action.

I wonder if a Black Lives Matter group that took up arms in a similar building would be afforded the same outcome?

That was my point.

I completely understand what you are saying. However, peaceful protests, non peaceful protests where people are acting foolish, destroying and looting businesses, screaming "what do we want? DEAD COPS! When do we want it? NOW!" Or the other nice chant "Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon" doesn't bode well for anyone wanting to be taken serious and wanting to get respect for their cause or to be seen as non threatening. Right or wrong?

There is something here called "jury nullification". It gives a jury a right to give a not guilty verdict regardless of the law, IF the jury concludes it was improperly enforced, or if they conclude it is just a bad law. They have spoken. See what a well armed militia can accomplsh once in a while? It was a kick in the knee to the establishment.. More to come I have no doubt.

"See what a well armed militia can accomplsh once in a while?"


Sorry, but fuck that.

Are you implying "what do we want? DEAD COPS! When do we want it? NOW!" and "Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon" is a standard catch-cry at Black Lives Matter rallies?

Just looked it up and only about 1.3% of ranchers are African-American, btw.

Re Frank Giustra, there were some favors exchanged for donations to the Clinton 'foundation' in regards to uranium mining in Kazakhstan as well, I believe. Very dodgy connection, and basically working with a dictator in Nazarbayev.

morepork wrote:"See what a well armed militia can accomplsh once in a while?"


Sorry, but fuck that.

It is just a big middle finger to "The Man" is all I was implying, Porkster. Thats what it took in that scenario. There is still another trial for 2 of them so will have to see how it turns out.

rowan wrote:Are you implying "what do we want? DEAD COPS! When do we want it? NOW!" and "Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon" is a standard catch-cry at Black Lives Matter rallies?

Just looked it up and only about 1.3% of ranchers are African-American, btw.

Re Frank Giustra, there were some favors exchanged for donations to the Clinton 'foundation' in regards to uranium mining in Kazakhstan as well, I believe. Very dodgy connection, and basically working with a dictator in Nazarbayev.

No, i am sure there are more, but was using that as examples of some of the crazy things being echoed at these peaceful protests.

You know Rowan, there are a lot more colors in the crayon box than just black and white. Believe it or not, Hispanics have ranches and farms.... As do Asians, Pacific Islanders, etc. and so forth. We are very diverse. Not all Americans classify themselves by the color of their skin... Shocking eh? Some of us are tired of being classified this way and just refuse to check that box because we are just "American", and have moved past the labels.

My great grandparents had a dairy farm when I was little.. I know about grazing and good stewardship on public land. I also know many of the ranchers and farmers were not what would be classified as white and around here still aren't.

Pardon my spelling.. I am typing on my crappy android and in the sun... Not well.

Oh, very good, you made a clearly denigrating generalization about the Black Lives Matter movement, and when I questioned it suddenly I am the one who's obsessed with race.

& since the comparison was being made between the ranchers and the aforementioned movement, I just figured I'd look up the stats and let you know what percentage of ranchers are African-Americans. Not sure why that seems to have upset you.

rowan wrote:Oh, very good, you made a clearly denigrating generalization about the Black Lives Matter movement, and when I questioned it suddenly I am the one who's obsessed with race.

& since the comparison was being made between the ranchers and the aforementioned movement, I just figured I'd look up the stats and let you know what percentage of ranchers are African-Americans. Not sure why that seems to have upset you.

Denigrating? I did? I dont see it, can you please point it? It was not intentional. No I'm not upset Rowan, just commenting.

Coco wrote:

WaspInWales wrote:

Coco wrote:
You realize there are ranchers of every color supporting this? It really isnt a matter of color. This has to do with the feds taking over massive land when this land should be for local or state use. The only person shot dead was a white protester i believe.

I didn't realise that as I'd only seen white people in the articles.

My point about colour was more the fact that some innocent black men have to do very little in order to get shot and killed by the police, whereas these douchbags take control of a federal building for a significant amount of time, whilst armed but manage to not only get away with the loss of one life in a skirmish but then manage to escape conviction for their action.

I wonder if a Black Lives Matter group that took up arms in a similar building would be afforded the same outcome?

That was my point.

I completely understand what you are saying. However, peaceful protests, non peaceful protests where people are acting foolish, destroying and looting businesses, screaming "what do we want? DEAD COPS! When do we want it? NOW!" Or the other nice chant "Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon" doesn't bode well for anyone wanting to be taken serious and wanting to get respect for their cause or to be seen as non threatening. Right or wrong?

There is something here called "jury nullification". It gives a jury a right to give a not guilty verdict regardless of the law, IF the jury concludes it was improperly enforced, or if they conclude it is just a bad law. They have spoken. See what a well armed militia can accomplsh once in a while? It was a kick in the knee to the establishment.. More to come I have no doubt.

Yep. Jury nullification is one of the corner stones of law in the US. The federal government have tried to eliminate it; seppo judges are now telling juries that they must judge the facts of the case. However, they should be telling them to judge the facts and the law.

Jury nullification is good.

Coco wrote:

rowan wrote:Are you implying "what do we want? DEAD COPS! When do we want it? NOW!" and "Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon" is a standard catch-cry at Black Lives Matter rallies?

Just looked it up and only about 1.3% of ranchers are African-American, btw.

Re Frank Giustra, there were some favors exchanged for donations to the Clinton 'foundation' in regards to uranium mining in Kazakhstan as well, I believe. Very dodgy connection, and basically working with a dictator in Nazarbayev.

No, i am sure there are more, but was using that as examples of some of the crazy things being echoed at these peaceful protests.

You know Rowan, there are a lot more colors in the crayon box than just black and white. Believe it or not, Hispanics have ranches and farms.... As do Asians, Pacific Islanders, etc. and so forth. We are very diverse. Not all Americans classify themselves by the color of their skin... Shocking eh? Some of us are tired of being classified this way and just refuse to check that box because we are just "American", and have moved past the labels.

My great grandparents had a dairy farm when I was little.. I know about grazing and good stewardship on public land. I also know many of the ranchers and farmers were not what would be classified as white and around here still aren't.

Pardon my spelling.. I am typing on my crappy android and in the sun... Not well.

You're living in a police state now honey.

Vengeful Glutton wrote:

Coco wrote:

rowan wrote:Are you implying "what do we want? DEAD COPS! When do we want it? NOW!" and "Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon" is a standard catch-cry at Black Lives Matter rallies?

Just looked it up and only about 1.3% of ranchers are African-American, btw.

Re Frank Giustra, there were some favors exchanged for donations to the Clinton 'foundation' in regards to uranium mining in Kazakhstan as well, I believe. Very dodgy connection, and basically working with a dictator in Nazarbayev.

No, i am sure there are more, but was using that as examples of some of the crazy things being echoed at these peaceful protests.

You know Rowan, there are a lot more colors in the crayon box than just black and white. Believe it or not, Hispanics have ranches and farms.... As do Asians, Pacific Islanders, etc. and so forth. We are very diverse. Not all Americans classify themselves by the color of their skin... Shocking eh? Some of us are tired of being classified this way and just refuse to check that box because we are just "American", and have moved past the labels.

My great grandparents had a dairy farm when I was little.. I know about grazing and good stewardship on public land. I also know many of the ranchers and farmers were not what would be classified as white and around here still aren't.

Pardon my spelling.. I am typing on my crappy android and in the sun... Not well.

You're living in a police state now honey.

And whats your point darling?

rowan wrote:Oh, very good, you made a clearly denigrating generalization about the Black Lives Matter movement, and when I questioned it suddenly I am the one who's obsessed with race.

& since the comparison was being made between the ranchers and the aforementioned movement, I just figured I'd look up the stats and let you know what percentage of ranchers are African-Americans. Not sure why that seems to have upset you.

The fuck she did.

@ Coco:

I don't think ethnicity, or colour matters. It appears to me that you're all under the thumb of unfettered statism. Sure, they keep you docile with goodies like TV, shiny consumerist trinkets, d'internet (21st century prozac) etc. which makes you feel "free". However, ultimately the average American is, in the eyes of the plutocrats that own you, an economic unit. Conservative middle class Americans like yourself are no longer viable. You cost too much. Hence the labour outsourcing by seppo MNCs to places like India and China. What can you do about it? Nothing. The state pwns you. Your oligarchic masters want to replace burnt out consumers like yourself with new model consumers, and it is they that influence federal legislators. Not you! When you get angry about it, your masters blame the blacks, the hispanics, the 'cans,.....at least they no longer blame us paddies! If that doesn't work, then they blame some tin pot dictator (who they probably financed!). How much did halliburton make from Iraq '03? How many Iraqis died? Halliburton made billions. The conflict has resulted in nearly a million casualties ("but, but, but....most of them were killed by terrorists!" says you).

Neither Hillary or Donald are going to make one iota of a difference to the system. You're far too intelligent to really believe that either of these cretins has your best interests at heart, right?

FWIW, I agree with American gun laws. I believe the citizens should be in a strong position to fight back if the iron fist of tyranny* ever slams hard on the door of a democratic institution. It appears to me that statism is insidiously festering in Uncle Sam's house (Matthew 10:36). Jury nullification for example. There have been repeated attempts to outlaw it. The Patriot Act, CALEA and various other powers that the state have conferred upon themselves (all under the slogan of protecting "our" freedoms), and federal agencies. The DHS are looking for 40.6 billion to subvent their operations in 2017. 40.6 Billion for one department?

*In the 20th century, tyrannical governments began their wicked conspiracy against their citizens by disarming the population: once they seized power, the Bolsheviks decreed that all firearms were to be registered. They followed this with laws that permitted the state to confiscate arms. Same thing happened in Germany, China, Cambodia and Afghanistan.

A lot of the history of police brutality in America has been buried and largely forgotten, from the Ludlow Massacre of 1914, for instance, when state troopers under Rockefeller's orders slaughtered striking miners and their families in Colorado, to the Attica Prison Uprising of 1971, when desperate prisoners rioted against slavery-like conditions and were fired upon by an assault force comprised of hundreds of state troopers, sheriffs and guards using high-powered weapons.

Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States covers the former atrocity, available online here: http://www.historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/socchal13.html

Chris Hedges describes the latter in all its gory details in this article: http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/how ... s_20161023

Forgotten by whom?

Don't forget the bombing of MOVE members in Philly in 1981>

morepork wrote:Forgotten by whom?

Don't forget the bombing of MOVE members in Philly in 1981>

1985, I believe. You might be getting confused with the Springboks tour of NZ

I was a teen and sentient at the time, but have no recollection of the event. I learnt about it through reading in later years - much later:

It's pretty well known here Ro-wan.

So far as I know, though not universally embraced, Howard Zinn's People's History of the US has been made assigned reading in schools throughout America. If that remains the case then it is highly commendable. A similar critical account of British history was written by John Newsinger but received comparatively little attention. I've read the book and would fault it only on the count that it doesn't cover some of the earlier crimes, in particular the colonization of Australia and New Zealand. The British would seem to prefer apologists like Niall Fergusson. As for Australians, I don't think anbody's got around to doing a critical 'History of . . .' but the brilliant John Pilger's pretty much covered it all in his numerous books, articles and documentaries. As for New Zealand, ahem! ahem!

There is a relatively obscure book written by an Italian Catholic Priest in New Zealand in 1896, "History of New Zealand and its Inhabitants", that is a first hand account of colonialism in action is less than charitable to the British. They in fact pushed the Italians to squash it.

morepork wrote:There is a relatively obscure book written by an Italian Catholic Priest in New Zealand in 1896, "History of New Zealand and its Inhabitants", that is a first hand account of colonialism in action is less than charitable to the British. They in fact pushed the Italians to squash it.

Interesting. Never heard about this.There have certainly been many recent books which have covered the atrocities of the colonial era, and I happen to have a copy of Tangata Whenua at home, which certainly gives the issue some attention, and follows the plight of the Maori people right into the modern era - all from the perspective of the Maori. But I'm not sure if anything more general has been published. Certainly not that I'm aware of.

Sadly, the land of the free has yet to discover freedom