RugbyRebels

The more scrutiny put on Scot govt’s handling of COVID the more you see they have been at least as bad as London. Sturgeon’s admission that she didn’t realise COVID could be transmitted during the early asymptotic stage is a particular lowlight.

The Scottish and Welsh Govts havent exactly covered themselves in glory. The scandalous way in which care homes have been hung out to dry shames all the UK's Govts. Mind you, i'd take Sturgeon and Drakeford in a heartbeat over Johnson.
Serious questions being raised about the quality of the advice from SAGE in the early stages.
This is a good read - https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2020/06/01/ ... -strategy/
Quite a few other voices have been raised, querying the make up of the SAGE committee, particularly the lack of public health experts.

fivepointer wrote:The scandalous way in which care homes have been hung out to dry shames all the UK's Govts.
Serious questions being raised about the quality of the advice from SAGE in the early stages.
This is a good read - https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2020/06/01/ ... -strategy/
Quite a few other voices have been raised, querying the make up of the SAGE committee, particularly the lack of public health experts.

Care homes feck ups seem to be the case across most with higher fatalities. The hardest hit countries seem to have managed to completely screw both the young and the old.
Issues with SAGE have been apparent from the start and only seem to multiply the more you read. Other than front line staff - NHS, supermarkets, community care etc - I don’t see anybody coming out of the enquiry even moderately well.

fivepointer wrote:The Scottish and Welsh Govts havent exactly covered themselves in glory. The scandalous way in which care homes have been hung out to dry shames all the UK's Govts. Mind you, i'd take Sturgeon and Drakeford in a heartbeat over Johnson.
Serious questions being raised about the quality of the advice from SAGE in the early stages.
This is a good read - https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2020/06/01/ ... -strategy/
Quite a few other voices have been raised, querying the make up of the SAGE committee, particularly the lack of public health experts.

I was wondering when the SAGE elephant in the room would arise. They are agents of and appointed by govt, so govt is accountable, but you have to wonder don’t you? Frankly all the actors in this very bad play should be looking at themselves.

Sandydragon wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Galfon wrote:Most odd - it's dangerous times, life and death - 'work from home if you can', 'use technology to do business'...
unless you're an MP willing to vote, in which case you now need to be physically present in Parliament.
....queues around the block, 3 hours per vote, distancing questionnable, those shielding or isolating don't count, long distance travelling now essential.
Almost Pythonesque, so there must be a reason above the petty or londoncentric that isn't obvious.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52895430

Sadly, the reason is completely obvious.

It's no surprise to see this government putting momentary political advantage ahead of 1) a coherent message which includes "work from home if you can" and 2) the lives of MPs, civil servants, Westminster staff and all their families.

This is fucking crazy. I suspect the main reason is that without the baying mob to back him up,Boris is looking a bit lightweight.

Absolutely. And I forgot to mention the unnecessary, repeated spreading of the virus between constituency and London.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: Sadly, the reason is completely obvious.

It's no surprise to see this government putting momentary political advantage ahead of 1) a coherent message which includes "work from home if you can" and 2) the lives of MPs, civil servants, Westminster staff and all their families.

This is fucking crazy. I suspect the main reason is that without the baying mob to back him up,Boris is looking a bit lightweight.

Absolutely. And I forgot to mention the unnecessary, repeated spreading of the virus between constituency and London.

I'm wondering how long it will be before one of our older MPs collapses from being made to stand for so long to do something which could take a split second with appropriate technology. JRM is a complete tool.

fivepointer wrote:The Scottish and Welsh Govts havent exactly covered themselves in glory. The scandalous way in which care homes have been hung out to dry shames all the UK's Govts. Mind you, i'd take Sturgeon and Drakeford in a heartbeat over Johnson.
Serious questions being raised about the quality of the advice from SAGE in the early stages.
This is a good read - https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2020/06/01/ ... -strategy/
Quite a few other voices have been raised, querying the make up of the SAGE committee, particularly the lack of public health experts.

Spoke to my parents on Sunday (still live in Newport) and they had nothing but scorn for Drakeford. The issue of England being perceived to enjoy greater freedom is grating a few people.

Banquo wrote:

fivepointer wrote:The Scottish and Welsh Govts havent exactly covered themselves in glory. The scandalous way in which care homes have been hung out to dry shames all the UK's Govts. Mind you, i'd take Sturgeon and Drakeford in a heartbeat over Johnson.
Serious questions being raised about the quality of the advice from SAGE in the early stages.
This is a good read - https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2020/06/01/ ... -strategy/
Quite a few other voices have been raised, querying the make up of the SAGE committee, particularly the lack of public health experts.

I was wondering when the SAGE elephant in the room would arise. They are agents of and appointed by govt, so govt is accountable, but you have to wonder don’t you? Frankly all the actors in this very bad play should be looking at themselves.

There is definitely a need for a lessons learned process at the end of this one. Sadly, it will be seen as an opportunity to blame someone else so instead of honest appraisal and change, it will be an opportunity to pick another scapegoat and watching them suffer whilst keeping the shit off oneself. And of course the media will whip up everything into a sacking offence so that will only add to the potential politicking.

Sandydragon wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: This is fucking crazy. I suspect the main reason is that without the baying mob to back him up,Boris is looking a bit lightweight.

Absolutely. And I forgot to mention the unnecessary, repeated spreading of the virus between constituency and London.

I'm wondering how long it will be before one of our older MPs collapses from being made to stand for so long to do something which could take a split second with appropriate technology. JRM is a complete tool.

That said, I think Labour should force divisions for every vote, to push this ridiculous system to breaking point.

Sandydragon wrote:

Banquo wrote:

fivepointer wrote:The Scottish and Welsh Govts havent exactly covered themselves in glory. The scandalous way in which care homes have been hung out to dry shames all the UK's Govts. Mind you, i'd take Sturgeon and Drakeford in a heartbeat over Johnson.
Serious questions being raised about the quality of the advice from SAGE in the early stages.
This is a good read - https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2020/06/01/ ... -strategy/
Quite a few other voices have been raised, querying the make up of the SAGE committee, particularly the lack of public health experts.

I was wondering when the SAGE elephant in the room would arise. They are agents of and appointed by govt, so govt is accountable, but you have to wonder don’t you? Frankly all the actors in this very bad play should be looking at themselves.

There is definitely a need for a lessons learned process at the end of this one. Sadly, it will be seen as an opportunity to blame someone else so instead of honest appraisal and change, it will be an opportunity to pick another scapegoat and watching them suffer whilst keeping the shit off oneself. And of course the media will whip up everything into a sacking offence so that will only add to the potential politicking.

absolutely. But clearly a number of bits of the jigsaw have not been fit for purpose, and my point is that one of them is almost certainly the current SAGE composition and even the experts themselves. None of that exculpates the govt.

Banquo wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Banquo wrote: I was wondering when the SAGE elephant in the room would arise. They are agents of and appointed by govt, so govt is accountable, but you have to wonder don’t you? Frankly all the actors in this very bad play should be looking at themselves.

There is definitely a need for a lessons learned process at the end of this one. Sadly, it will be seen as an opportunity to blame someone else so instead of honest appraisal and change, it will be an opportunity to pick another scapegoat and watching them suffer whilst keeping the shit off oneself. And of course the media will whip up everything into a sacking offence so that will only add to the potential politicking.

absolutely. But clearly a number of bits of the jigsaw have not been fit for purpose, and my point is that one of them is almost certainly the current SAGE composition and even the experts themselves. None of that exculpates the govt.

Sage has rather wilted in all this

Digby wrote: Sage has rather wilted in all this

..could be on borrowed Thyme.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Sandydragon wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: Absolutely. And I forgot to mention the unnecessary, repeated spreading of the virus between constituency and London.

I'm wondering how long it will be before one of our older MPs collapses from being made to stand for so long to do something which could take a split second with appropriate technology. JRM is a complete tool.

That said, I think Labour should force divisions for every vote, to push this ridiculous system to breaking point.

Even The Times editorial is critical of this system, which speaks volumes.

Luckily track and trace might be running soon, though Rome wasn't built in a day, so you can't just rush these things. Some of the ideas they have in their contact model I wouldn't expect from students at GCSE level, certainly not from anyone familiar with the concept of fraud which the government should be.

Listening to Dr Jenny Harries make the comment that when contacted by track and trace despite there being no security measures, and despite there being no number you can call back on, people contacted would know they'd been contacted by official persons because the number they'd be dialling out on was a published number (all the better too clone you with my dear) and you'd also know from talking to them. Which reminded by of the Book or Mormon which at the end concludes by saying if you know in your heart what you've just read is true then that's proof god exists. Now it's not altogether Jenny Harries' fault she got stuck with a security question, but feck me a bad fraudster should be able to make money out of this system, and that's pretty much the only accomplishment I can see so far for track and trace.

Jared Kushner and his army of millennial MBA grads would be so proud of the bumbling efforts across the pond. I had no idea it was also so fucked up on the public health front over there.

morepork wrote:Jared Kushner and his army of millennial MBA grads would be so proud of the bumbling efforts across the pond. I had no idea it was also so fucked up on the public health front over there.

You were previously under the impression that our response to this crisis wasn't a colossal turd fire?

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.
.

...why?!

Puja

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:Jared Kushner and his army of millennial MBA grads would be so proud of the bumbling efforts across the pond. I had no idea it was also so fucked up on the public health front over there.

You were previously under the impression that our response to this crisis wasn't a colossal turd fire?

.
.
.

...why?!

Puja

You know where I live......logistical Turd Fire Central...

morepork wrote:

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:Jared Kushner and his army of millennial MBA grads would be so proud of the bumbling efforts across the pond. I had no idea it was also so fucked up on the public health front over there.

You were previously under the impression that our response to this crisis wasn't a colossal turd fire?

.
.
.

...why?!

Puja

You know where I live......logistical Turd Fire Central...

I mean, we're nowhere near as bad as America, but we've still got massive problems.

Deja vu; I feel like I've said that recently on a different topic...

Puja

morepork wrote:

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:Jared Kushner and his army of millennial MBA grads would be so proud of the bumbling efforts across the pond. I had no idea it was also so fucked up on the public health front over there.

You were previously under the impression that our response to this crisis wasn't a colossal turd fire?

.
.
.

...why?!

Puja

You know where I live......logistical Turd Fire Central...

Yeah, well over here contact tracing was just something that foreigners do till a week ago, and we're still waiting for border checks (of any sort).

morepork wrote:Jared Kushner and his army of millennial MBA grads would be so proud of the bumbling efforts across the pond. I had no idea it was also so fucked up on the public health front over there.

Gubment here has presided over the creation and sustainment of (at least) two centralised monoliths whose desire to micromanage stems from ar5e covering on serial incompetence over decades- the frontline in the NHS is generally great in spite of the organisation that employs them, and generally the public has historically received decent treatment free of charge (well apart from tax). PHE are pretty comedic tbh. Fundamental reform alongside sustained and sustainable funding is needed, and whilst it seems almost impossible, the future structures and funding needs taking our of political cycles, if not out of politicians hands completely. You wouldn't start from here, both in timing and in what already exists (eg PFI's, GP contracts, huge numbers of middle management (and the army of MBA's though a lot are internally qualified ones), broken supply chain, a ridiculous property portfolio, ageing infrastructure where not replaced by madly expensive PFI funded resources/white elephants etc) . The current Gubment failed to realise that it presided over something unfit for purpose, certainly for what's happened since Feb. To be clear, this is not excusing the current govt at all- they've compounded everything, pretty much. The only reasonable claim is that the NHS hasn't been swamped- but still with tens of thousands of lives directly lost and multi-thousands more indirectly. Along with the populace, this crisis has brought out the best, and highlighted the worst.

Banquo wrote:

morepork wrote:Jared Kushner and his army of millennial MBA grads would be so proud of the bumbling efforts across the pond. I had no idea it was also so fucked up on the public health front over there.

Gubment here has presided over the creation and sustainment of (at least) two centralised monoliths whose desire to micromanage stems from ar5e covering on serial incompetence over decades- the frontline in the NHS is generally great in spite of the organisation that employs them, and generally the public has historically received decent treatment free of charge (well apart from tax). PHE are pretty comedic tbh. Fundamental reform alongside sustained and sustainable funding is needed, and whilst it seems almost impossible, the future structures and funding needs taking our of political cycles, if not out of politicians hands completely. You wouldn't start from here, both in timing and in what already exists (eg PFI's, GP contracts, huge numbers of middle management (and the army of MBA's though a lot are internally qualified ones), broken supply chain, a ridiculous property portfolio, ageing infrastructure where not replaced by madly expensive PFI funded resources/white elephants etc) . The current Gubment failed to realise that it presided over something unfit for purpose, certainly for what's happened since Feb. To be clear, this is not excusing the current govt at all- they've compounded everything, pretty much. The only reasonable claim is that the NHS hasn't been swamped- but still with tens of thousands of lives directly lost and multi-thousands more indirectly. Along with the populace, this crisis has brought out the best, and highlighted the worst.

The Conservatives have been in charge for the last decade. They are responsible for the state the NHS, even more so for PHE, which thay created in 2013.

The current government didn't fail "to realise that it presided over something not fit for purpose", it eroded and cut and sold off the health system until it was in that state (whether by intent or by design). There's no one else to blame.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

morepork wrote:Jared Kushner and his army of millennial MBA grads would be so proud of the bumbling efforts across the pond. I had no idea it was also so fucked up on the public health front over there.

Gubment here has presided over the creation and sustainment of (at least) two centralised monoliths whose desire to micromanage stems from ar5e covering on serial incompetence over decades- the frontline in the NHS is generally great in spite of the organisation that employs them, and generally the public has historically received decent treatment free of charge (well apart from tax). PHE are pretty comedic tbh. Fundamental reform alongside sustained and sustainable funding is needed, and whilst it seems almost impossible, the future structures and funding needs taking our of political cycles, if not out of politicians hands completely. You wouldn't start from here, both in timing and in what already exists (eg PFI's, GP contracts, huge numbers of middle management (and the army of MBA's though a lot are internally qualified ones), broken supply chain, a ridiculous property portfolio, ageing infrastructure where not replaced by madly expensive PFI funded resources/white elephants etc) . The current Gubment failed to realise that it presided over something unfit for purpose, certainly for what's happened since Feb. To be clear, this is not excusing the current govt at all- they've compounded everything, pretty much. The only reasonable claim is that the NHS hasn't been swamped- but still with tens of thousands of lives directly lost and multi-thousands more indirectly. Along with the populace, this crisis has brought out the best, and highlighted the worst.

The Conservatives have been in charge for the last decade. They are responsible for the state the NHS, even more so for PHE, which thay created in 2013.

The current government didn't fail "to realise that it presided over something not fit for purpose", it eroded and cut and sold off the health system until it was in that state (whether by intent or by design). There's no one else to blame.

Not sure where you read I was blaming anyone else. You are a tad trigger happy.

Banquo wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Banquo wrote: Gubment here has presided over the creation and sustainment of (at least) two centralised monoliths whose desire to micromanage stems from ar5e covering on serial incompetence over decades- the frontline in the NHS is generally great in spite of the organisation that employs them, and generally the public has historically received decent treatment free of charge (well apart from tax). PHE are pretty comedic tbh. Fundamental reform alongside sustained and sustainable funding is needed, and whilst it seems almost impossible, the future structures and funding needs taking our of political cycles, if not out of politicians hands completely. You wouldn't start from here, both in timing and in what already exists (eg PFI's, GP contracts, huge numbers of middle management (and the army of MBA's though a lot are internally qualified ones), broken supply chain, a ridiculous property portfolio, ageing infrastructure where not replaced by madly expensive PFI funded resources/white elephants etc) . The current Gubment failed to realise that it presided over something unfit for purpose, certainly for what's happened since Feb. To be clear, this is not excusing the current govt at all- they've compounded everything, pretty much. The only reasonable claim is that the NHS hasn't been swamped- but still with tens of thousands of lives directly lost and multi-thousands more indirectly. Along with the populace, this crisis has brought out the best, and highlighted the worst.

The Conservatives have been in charge for the last decade. They are responsible for the state the NHS, even more so for PHE, which thay created in 2013.

The current government didn't fail "to realise that it presided over something not fit for purpose", it eroded and cut and sold off the health system until it was in that state (whether by intent or by design). There's no one else to blame.

Not sure where you read I was blaming anyone else. You are a tad trigger happy.

Good to see such agreement on this issue

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: The Conservatives have been in charge for the last decade. They are responsible for the state the NHS, even more so for PHE, which thay created in 2013.

The current government didn't fail "to realise that it presided over something not fit for purpose", it eroded and cut and sold off the health system until it was in that state (whether by intent or by design). There's no one else to blame.

Not sure where you read I was blaming anyone else. You are a tad trigger happy.

Good to see such agreement on this issue

I don't necessarily agree with your diagnosis, but I certainly agree on accountability; all of SAGE, NHSE and PHE are agents of government, and as such their 'creations'.

Banquo wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Banquo wrote: Not sure where you read I was blaming anyone else. You are a tad trigger happy.

Good to see such agreement on this issue

I don't necessarily agree with your diagnosis, but I certainly agree on accountability; all of SAGE, NHSE and PHE are agents of government, and as such their 'creations'.

The government is fully responsible. I agree.