EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Raggs]

Simmonds, Underhill, Vunipola?

[Mellsblue]

Another good performance from Collins. I only managed to watch bits and pieces but there was one searing break towards the end that was top class. I've had a quick look at the stats and he's top for clean breaks, second for defenders beaten and third for carries. Stats obviously aren't the be all and end all but it's an impressive start to the season.

[Mellsblue]

Simmonds, Underhill, Vunipola?

Can't see Robshaw being dropped. I'd also argue Wilson and Curry's performances in Arg, plus good starts to their respective seasons, will count for a lot. Having said that, I can see Underhill going straight in to the starting lineup with the Hask missing out. Jones as been very effusive about him since the moment in land at Heathrow. I doubt Simmonds will shift Hughes from the bench, unfortunately.

[Adam_P]

If Ribbans keeps his form from last season and last night up, there's another very good EQP lock in the mix. Seems to have a good mix of size, power and skill set and had a great engine on him.

[Stom]

Simmonds, Underhill, Vunipola?

Can't see Robshaw being dropped. I'd also argue Wilson and Curry's performances in Arg, plus good starts to their respective seasons, will count for a lot. Having said that, I can see Underhill going straight in to the starting lineup with the Hask missing out. Jones as been very effusive about him since the moment in land at Heathrow. I doubt Simmonds will shift Hughes from the bench, unfortunately.

Underhill was very good for Bath last night. I think short term is Robshaw, Underhill, BillyV. Simmonds is looking very good, but I'd need to pay a bit more attention to his ruck work to judge whether he'd be a good bet for England.

[Scrumhead]

Some of these guys looking good from my 'Ones to Watch XV' ...

http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/viewtop ... f=2&t=1976

Simmonds will have tough job dislodging Hughes but I wonder whether Eddie may like the look of him as a a bench option who can cover across the whole back row.

I've championed him for a long time now so personally, I'd love to see him in an England shirt. Perhaps the Samoa game might be an opportunity to try something different.

Ribbans looked good last season so I'm not hugely surprised to hear he shone last night. Also really pleasing to hear Underhill actually does look the part.

[Banquo]

Sam Simmonds scored another try tonight and apparently having an absolute stormer. Underhill is a beast on the defensive side of the ball.

Potentially 2 really exciting additions to Englands backrow stocks.

Simmonds is an interesting player. He seemed to come out of nowhere at the end of last season and has played a series of stormers for Exeter. He looks really powerful for a man who is relatively small by today's standards (6'0"; 16 st 2 lb if the stats are accurate) and is an explosive carrier who can play across the back row. If he holds current form Jones will be taking a serious look at him, at least as a dynamic bencher if not a starter.

Jack Clifford mk 2 . though Clifford claims to be bigger. What is key with these guys is that they work on the technical/skills side, and get the decisions right. NSS I suppose

[Scrumhead]

Clifford has actually been pretty decent this season. He's playing 7 tomorrow, but is a lot better at 8 IMO.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the trouble for Clifford and Simmonds is that their style of play doesn't really suit Eddie's game plan. Billy and Hughes take responsibility for most of the heavy carrying in our pack and Clifford and Simmonds aren't suited to that task. I would have liked to have seen us develop an alternative way of playing that would allow us to better utilise a looser, Read style of 8, either as a different tactical option or off the bench but without the personnel to support that elsewhere, I don't really think it has legs right now.

Our first choice back row for me includes Robshaw and Billy at 6 and 8, but if we fancy an experiment against Samoa in the AIs, we could go nuts and try Hughes at 6 with Simmonds at 8.

[Banquo]

Clifford has actually been pretty decent this season. He's playing 7 tomorrow, but is a lot better at 8 IMO.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the trouble for Clifford and Simmonds is that their style of play doesn't really suit Eddie's game plan. Billy and Hughes take responsibility for most of the heavy carrying in our pack and Clifford and Simmonds aren't suited to that task. I would have liked to have seen us develop an alternative way of playing that would allow us to better utilise a looser, Read style of 8, either as a different tactical option or off the bench but without the personnel to support that elsewhere, I don't really think it has legs right now.

Our first choice back row for me includes Robshaw and Billy at 6 and 8, but if we fancy an experiment against Samoa in the AIs, we could go nuts and try Hughes at 6 with Simmonds at 8.

Personally I think Clifford has been 'written off' too early. We need more carriers, and of the sort you mention, but it doesn't have to come from 8; look at the NZ 6's, for example. My point though, is that these aspirants need to make sure that their games are rounded, and they aren't "just" 'carriers'/'powerful hitters'.....they need all of that stuff.

Jones creates game plans to the players he has, and so if players emerge that he thinks cut the mustard, I have no doubt he'd adapt. Besides, the best game plans aren't one way of playing, if that makes sense.

[Mellsblue]

I said it when Billy was injured and Hughes was struggling. We need another option/style of carrier when Billy isn't available or has a loss of form. A pacier carrier further out would seem the obvious option, and we have the players to suit. Whether they can step it up to test level is another matter. I'd love to see Clifford and Simmons (I thought Beaumont would suit this too before he had a rubbish season and was then moved to lock) big seasons and get a run out over the summer.

It would also give Jones the size out wide that he wants without needing to pick a bigger back just for the sake of needing a big back.

Ideally we will find a 6 that will provide Robshaws skills and add in some pace.

[Banquo]

I said it when Billy was injured and Hughes was struggling. We need another option/style of carrier when Billy isn't available or has a loss of form. A pacier carrier further out would seem the obvious option, and we have the players to suit. Whether they can step it up to test level is another matter. I'd love to see Clifford and Simmons (I thought Beaumont would suit this too before he had a rubbish season and was then moved to lock) big seasons and get a run out over the summer.

It would also give Jones the size out wide that he wants without needing to pick a bigger back just for the sake of needing a big back.

Ideally we will find a 6 that will provide Robshaws skills and add in some pace.

The key point being that Eddie at that point didn't believe he had the options to do the above; one thing he doesn't do,generally, is ask players to do something they can't do (...could argue that there is a coaching 'opportunity' there...); even when playing Lawtoje at 6 he tried to use their strengths (and imo failed w Itoje). Pragmatism again; clearly he then tried options in Argentina.

[Mellsblue]

According to Mr Kay the role of a 6 has now changed and its bad news for Robshaw and those not enamoured with Lawtoje:


September 15 2017, 5:00pm, the times
Ben Kay: Chris Robshaw’s future at risk as importance of lineout increases


Chris Robshaw has been one of the first names on the England teamsheet under Eddie Jones but no longer can he be so sure of his place. The game is evolving rapidly away from Robshaw’s core attributes and the England head coach needs to revise the balance of his back row for the autumn series and beyond. The same applies to James Haskell because the era of playing with two six-and-a-halves is over. We are entering the age of the five-and-a-half.

I am not writing the England obituary for Robshaw because he could come into consideration on the open side, but he faces stiff competition there from Tom Curry and Sam Underhill, the coming men, plus Haskell, who has filled the role for most of Jones’s tenure.


The reasons why Robshaw finds his position on the blind side under threat are nothing to do with his performances for England and all to do with the way rugby is changing. The lineout is now one of the most important facets of the game, while changes to the ruck laws mean there is less emphasis on the back row competing at the breakdown and more on them being ball-carriers and link men.

The All Blacks have just unleashed Vaea Fifita, a barnstorming, ball-carrying blind-side flanker. The Lions this summer fielded Sean O’Brien together with Sam Warburton, both of whom are strong on the floor but also effective carriers and skilful handlers. In other words, the blind-side flanker needs to be more than just a hard worker who takes care of the ugly stuff; he needs outstanding points of difference.

Those changes to the game, combined with the rapid development of Courtney Lawes as an imposing ball-carrier, mean that England will have to look at fielding him in the same pack as Maro Itoje and George Kruis. When Robshaw and Kruis were injured for the Six Nations, England fielded three locks, with Itoje and Joe Launchbury in the second row and Lawes packing down at blind-side flanker. That model has to be the future for England because it is the way that rugby is going.


There are always trends in sport, where certain things become more important, either through tactical innovation or because the laws change. The quarterback in the NFL has always been the highest earner in the team but, since 2004, teams have recognised that it is critical to have a left tackle who can protect his blind side and suddenly that unglamorous role became the second highest-paid position in the league.

It was the same in rugby. The scrum has been a dominant feature in the game for many years now and the tight-head prop became your most valuable asset. When I was playing, we would win matches from the penalties that Julian White won in the scrum. Newcastle Falcons made Carl Hayman the highest-paid player in the league for that reason.

The scrum is now being devalued as a match-winning tool by the laws. The lineout has become the biggest battleground in the game. Thirty-three of the 75 tries scored over the opening two rounds of the Aviva Premiership have started with a lineout and that is a common trend across all competitions.

That kind of detail will not have escaped the attention of Jones or Steve Borthwick, his bookish assistant who loves nothing more than to have his head buried in a laptop trying to spot trends and opportunities.

Worcester Warriors, Sale Sharks and Leicester Tigers began the third round of fixtures as the bottom three teams in the league and they also have the worst record at the lineout. Leicester have won 82 per cent of their lineout ball, which is low and does not take into account the quality of ball they are winning, which is so important.

Winning clean lineout ball off the top is critical to the midfield generating momentum; it allows the ball carrier to pick his line and launch the attack. Alternatively, keeping the ball tight and constructing a drive is an opportunity to tie in defenders and create more space out wide.

Defensively it has never been more important to compete for the ball in the lineout. If your team have kicked for field position, you want to compete and put the pressure on to prevent the team from escaping. The lineout is now a big weapon and in Lawes, Itoje, Kruis and Launchbury, England have four world-class options.

With the ruck laws now favouring the attacking team and making it harder to win a turnover or even slow the ball down, defending teams are preferring not to compete at all. Back rowers, therefore, need to be ball carriers and link-men rather than fetchers.

Lawes has always been known for his tackling and his improving lineout work but Jones told him that he had to improve his ball-carrying, and he has done so to the point where he is now one of the best in the Premiership. The Northampton lock was outstanding on the Lions tour, looking for the ball and prepared to shoulder the responsibility of driving the team forward. He was smashed a couple of times against Leicester last week but he kept going. He was relentless and that sort of confrontational physicality combined with his impact in defensive lineouts means England have to have him in the team.

Kruis is a very good caller while Itoje would bring athleticism, agility and a huge wing-span. Add Lawes into that mix and it is a frightening prospect. Behind those three, England also have Charlie Ewels and Nick Isiekwe, who both impressed Jones on the summer tour, and Launchbury who was outstanding for England last year and unlucky not to become a Lion.

It is exciting for England because they have a crop of magnificent players to help them move with the times. Robshaw and Haskell will have to do the same if they are to convince Jones that they still have an important role to play in the England back row.

[TheNomad]

Personally think the Itoje and Launch with Lawes at 6 is something we could persevere with.

Lawes has improved massively, no doubt

You could make similar argument re: point of difference with Hughes as well, who's good over the ball and in the line out - carrying goes without saying

[Banquo]

Personally think the Itoje and Launch with Lawes at 6 is something we could persevere with.

Lawes has improved massively, no doubt

You could make similar argument re: point of difference with Hughes as well, who's good over the ball and in the line out - carrying goes without saying

He's certainly improved as a lock, which is his best position.

[Puja]

Personally think the Itoje and Launch with Lawes at 6 is something we could persevere with.

Lawes has improved massively, no doubt

You could make similar argument re: point of difference with Hughes as well, who's good over the ball and in the line out - carrying goes without saying

He's certainly improved as a lock, which is his best position.

As above.

I don't get this insistence that the new law variations have ruined any chances of turnovers and tipped the balance toward the attack. The only two things that have changed with competing with your hands are that a) the tackler can't stand up and compete from the wrong side and b) that a ruck is formed when one person is there. The former was rare anyway and the latter seems irrelevant to jackalling as, if there was a member of the attacking team at the breakdown first, then any member of the defending team would make it a ruck anyway. So what exactly has changed to make poaching obsolete and make it worthwhile picking locks everywhere?

Puja

[Raggs]

The former wasn't that rare for ruck specialist 7s, it was very common, and a lot of other backrow would give it a go too. Though actual turnovers may have been a bit rarer, it had a serious slowing effect on the ball. Now blitz turnovers (such as Leicester have been gaining) are probably a more solid option in terms of semi-reliable turnover/slowing. Refs also used to frequently allow the first defender to go for the ball, even if an attackers was already there, not every ref, but a good number didn't mind a lot.

I think it will change, but I don't think Robshaw was every a serious turnover machine anyway, and he wasn't in the 6 shirt for those reasons. I do agree that the lineout is becoming more important though, so that may mean we look elsewhere.

[Stom]

Personally think the Itoje and Launch with Lawes at 6 is something we could persevere with.

Lawes has improved massively, no doubt

You could make similar argument re: point of difference with Hughes as well, who's good over the ball and in the line out - carrying goes without saying

He's certainly improved as a lock, which is his best position.

As above.

I don't get this insistence that the new law variations have ruined any chances of turnovers and tipped the balance toward the attack. The only two things that have changed with competing with your hands are that a) the tackler can't stand up and compete from the wrong side and b) that a ruck is formed when one person is there. The former was rare anyway and the latter seems irrelevant to jackalling as, if there was a member of the attacking team at the breakdown first, then any member of the defending team would make it a ruck anyway. So what exactly has changed to make poaching obsolete and make it worthwhile picking locks everywhere?

Puja

Former lock in talking up the effectiveness of locks shocker.

It's harder. I think there will be fewer of those easy turnovers we saw for a bit. But good technique and speed of thought and foot will still give you a good opportunity to turn the ball over.

[Banquo]

The former wasn't that rare for ruck specialist 7s, it was very common, and a lot of other backrow would give it a go too. Though actual turnovers may have been a bit rarer, it had a serious slowing effect on the ball. Now blitz turnovers (such as Leicester have been gaining) are probably a more solid option in terms of semi-reliable turnover/slowing. Refs also used to frequently allow the first defender to go for the ball, even if an attackers was already there, not every ref, but a good number didn't mind a lot.

I think it will change, but I don't think Robshaw was every a serious turnover machine anyway, and he wasn't in the 6 shirt for those reasons. I do agree that the lineout is becoming more important though, so that may mean we look elsewhere.

Lineout has alway been important. No reason that you can't use smaller back rows effectively there though; Robshaw himself is used that way.

If you are going down the blitz route, or authentic rucking as it used to be known (where bound forwards drove over the ball), you could argue for shorter, more powerful locks, who can also lift agile back rows (French have done it for years).....more than one way to skin a cat. Kay's argument and solution smacks of confirmation bias, built to suit accomodating three/four of our strongest assets (currently). MInd, I wouldn't say no to Fifita!

His point of differentiation is interesting- see Tom Croft- but great basic skills and an x-factor is what makes world class, so it's hardly an insightful commentary.

[Digby]

The quarterback in the NFL has always been the highest earner in the team but, since 2004, teams have recognised that it is critical to have a left tackle who can protect his blind side and suddenly that unglamorous role became the second highest-paid position in the league.

In essence it seems Ben is turning to Sandra Bullock for his punditry. One thing he seems to have skirted around, and it's especially odd for someone who loves a good latch, is it's not just players who can win the lineout but also set and drive a good maul.

[bitts]

The quarterback in the NFL has always been the highest earner in the team but, since 2004, teams have recognised that it is critical to have a left tackle who can protect his blind side and suddenly that unglamorous role became the second highest-paid position in the league.

In essence it seems Ben is turning to Sandra Bullock for his punditry. One thing he seems to have skirted around, and it's especially odd for someone who loves a good latch, is it's not just players who can win the lineout but also set and drive a good maul.

Going to go out on a limb and suggest he's actually read the book that film is based on, by Michael Lewis. The economics aspect of it is quite interesting.

[Digby]

The quarterback in the NFL has always been the highest earner in the team but, since 2004, teams have recognised that it is critical to have a left tackle who can protect his blind side and suddenly that unglamorous role became the second highest-paid position in the league.

In essence it seems Ben is turning to Sandra Bullock for his punditry. One thing he seems to have skirted around, and it's especially odd for someone who loves a good latch, is it's not just players who can win the lineout but also set and drive a good maul.

Going to go out on a limb and suggest he's actually read the book that film is based on, by Michael Lewis. The economics aspect of it is quite interesting.

As was Moneyball. What both should advise more perhaps is just how much things change, and so what's 'right' now mayn't hold true by the time of the WC

[Mellsblue]

The quarterback in the NFL has always been the highest earner in the team but, since 2004, teams have recognised that it is critical to have a left tackle who can protect his blind side and suddenly that unglamorous role became the second highest-paid position in the league.

In essence it seems Ben is turning to Sandra Bullock for his punditry.

Im struggling to think of a situation where turning to Miss Bullock isn't a good idea.

[Puja]

The former wasn't that rare for ruck specialist 7s, it was very common, and a lot of other backrow would give it a go too. Though actual turnovers may have been a bit rarer, it had a serious slowing effect on the ball. Now blitz turnovers (such as Leicester have been gaining) are probably a more solid option in terms of semi-reliable turnover/slowing. Refs also used to frequently allow the first defender to go for the ball, even if an attackers was already there, not every ref, but a good number didn't mind a lot.

I think it will change, but I don't think Robshaw was every a serious turnover machine anyway, and he wasn't in the 6 shirt for those reasons. I do agree that the lineout is becoming more important though, so that may mean we look elsewhere.

Lineout has alway been important. No reason that you can't use smaller back rows effectively there though; Robshaw himself is used that way.

If you are going down the blitz route, or authentic rucking as it used to be known (where bound forwards drove over the ball), you could argue for shorter, more powerful locks, who can also lift agile back rows (French have done it for years).....more than one way to skin a cat. Kay's argument and solution smacks of confirmation bias, built to suit accomodating three/four of our strongest assets (currently). MInd, I wouldn't say no to Fifita!

His point of differentiation is interesting- see Tom Croft- but great basic skills and an x-factor is what makes world class, so it's hardly an insightful commentary.

What makes it odder is that Robshaw does have a point of differentiation - his work rate and stamina. It's not as glamorous as silky lineout skills, but it's behind a reasonable chunk of our success so far.

Puja

[Banquo]

The former wasn't that rare for ruck specialist 7s, it was very common, and a lot of other backrow would give it a go too. Though actual turnovers may have been a bit rarer, it had a serious slowing effect on the ball. Now blitz turnovers (such as Leicester have been gaining) are probably a more solid option in terms of semi-reliable turnover/slowing. Refs also used to frequently allow the first defender to go for the ball, even if an attackers was already there, not every ref, but a good number didn't mind a lot.

I think it will change, but I don't think Robshaw was every a serious turnover machine anyway, and he wasn't in the 6 shirt for those reasons. I do agree that the lineout is becoming more important though, so that may mean we look elsewhere.

Lineout has alway been important. No reason that you can't use smaller back rows effectively there though; Robshaw himself is used that way.

If you are going down the blitz route, or authentic rucking as it used to be known (where bound forwards drove over the ball), you could argue for shorter, more powerful locks, who can also lift agile back rows (French have done it for years).....more than one way to skin a cat. Kay's argument and solution smacks of confirmation bias, built to suit accomodating three/four of our strongest assets (currently). MInd, I wouldn't say no to Fifita!

His point of differentiation is interesting- see Tom Croft- but great basic skills and an x-factor is what makes world class, so it's hardly an insightful commentary.

What makes it odder is that Robshaw does have a point of differentiation - his work rate and stamina. It's not as glamorous as silky lineout skills, but it's behind a reasonable chunk of our success so far.

Puja

..whilst that is true, should be a given. The fact that it differentiates him, says something

[Banquo]

The quarterback in the NFL has always been the highest earner in the team but, since 2004, teams have recognised that it is critical to have a left tackle who can protect his blind side and suddenly that unglamorous role became the second highest-paid position in the league.

In essence it seems Ben is turning to Sandra Bullock for his punditry.

Im struggling to think of a situation where turning to Miss Bullock isn't a good idea.

? she looks like Michael Jackson in his alabaster period these days....15 years ago, of course its a good idea