RugbyRebels

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:What makes it odder is that Robshaw does have a point of differentiation - his work rate and stamina. It's not as glamorous as silky lineout skills, but it's behind a reasonable chunk of our success so far.

Puja

..whilst that is true, should be a given. The fact that it differentiates him, says something

I think you're being a little dismissive - there's working hard and then there's continually being top tackler and top volume carrier for your team, while also making a respectable amount of turnovers. I'd put his workrate up as one of the best in the world, not just in England.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:What makes it odder is that Robshaw does have a point of differentiation - his work rate and stamina. It's not as glamorous as silky lineout skills, but it's behind a reasonable chunk of our success so far.

Puja

..whilst that is true, should be a given. The fact that it differentiates him, says something

I think you're being a little dismissive - there's working hard and then there's continually being top tackler and top volume carrier for your team, while also making a respectable amount of turnovers. I'd put his workrate up as one of the best in the world, not just in England.

Puja

I'm not being dismissive- well maybe a little, but I rate Robshaw anyway, I'm just saying hard working should be a given for any international player- its the decision making that goes with that, that would seem to be more important. I dont have the comparator stats you have access to though.

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote: ..whilst that is true, should be a given. The fact that it differentiates him, says something

I think you're being a little dismissive - there's working hard and then there's continually being top tackler and top volume carrier for your team, while also making a respectable amount of turnovers. I'd put his workrate up as one of the best in the world, not just in England.

Puja

I'm not being dismissive- well maybe a little, but I rate Robshaw anyway, I'm just saying hard working should be a given for any international player- its the decision making that goes with that, that would seem to be more important. I dont have the comparator stats you have access to though.

HAH! Stats, he says! Classic.

This is the internet, we don' need no steeking facts. All we gots is opinions.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:What makes it odder is that Robshaw does have a point of differentiation - his work rate and stamina. It's not as glamorous as silky lineout skills, but it's behind a reasonable chunk of our success so far.

Puja

..whilst that is true, should be a given. The fact that it differentiates him, says something

I think you're being a little dismissive - there's working hard and then there's continually being top tackler and top volume carrier for your team, while also making a respectable amount of turnovers. I'd put his workrate up as one of the best in the world, not just in England.

Puja

It's not just workrate, though, it's anticipation. He just knows where play is going to be. Partly instinct, but partly because he's worked so hard on overcoming his physical problems.

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
I think you're being a little dismissive - there's working hard and then there's continually being top tackler and top volume carrier for your team, while also making a respectable amount of turnovers. I'd put his workrate up as one of the best in the world, not just in England.

Puja

I'm not being dismissive- well maybe a little, but I rate Robshaw anyway, I'm just saying hard working should be a given for any international player- its the decision making that goes with that, that would seem to be more important. I dont have the comparator stats you have access to though.

HAH! Stats, he says! Classic.

This is the internet, we don' need no steeking facts. All we gots is opinions.

Puja

I know....why do you think I said it....

Stom wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote: ..whilst that is true, should be a given. The fact that it differentiates him, says something

I think you're being a little dismissive - there's working hard and then there's continually being top tackler and top volume carrier for your team, while also making a respectable amount of turnovers. I'd put his workrate up as one of the best in the world, not just in England.

Puja

It's not just workrate, though, it's anticipation. He just knows where play is going to be. Partly instinct, but partly because he's worked so hard on overcoming his physical problems.

that was kind of my point, workrate/stamina are pointless if not used effectively.

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote: Lineout has alway been important. No reason that you can't use smaller back rows effectively there though; Robshaw himself is used that way.

If you are going down the blitz route, or authentic rucking as it used to be known (where bound forwards drove over the ball), you could argue for shorter, more powerful locks, who can also lift agile back rows (French have done it for years).....more than one way to skin a cat. Kay's argument and solution smacks of confirmation bias, built to suit accomodating three/four of our strongest assets (currently). MInd, I wouldn't say no to Fifita!

His point of differentiation is interesting- see Tom Croft- but great basic skills and an x-factor is what makes world class, so it's hardly an insightful commentary.

What makes it odder is that Robshaw does have a point of differentiation - his work rate and stamina. It's not as glamorous as silky lineout skills, but it's behind a reasonable chunk of our success so far.

Puja

..whilst that is true, should be a given. The fact that it differentiates him, says something

I'm not convinced it's a point of difference to the Kiwi flankers

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
What makes it odder is that Robshaw does have a point of differentiation - his work rate and stamina. It's not as glamorous as silky lineout skills, but it's behind a reasonable chunk of our success so far.

Puja

..whilst that is true, should be a given. The fact that it differentiates him, says something

I'm not convinced it's a point of difference to the Kiwi flankers

well exactly, he does work hard, as hard as anyone, but calling it a differentiator says much.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: ..whilst that is true, should be a given. The fact that it differentiates him, says something

I'm not convinced it's a point of difference to the Kiwi flankers

well exactly, he does work hard, as hard as anyone, but calling it a differentiator says much.

Gatland and the Lions coaches clearly didn't think it a point of difference to the Welsh and Irish flankers

Stom wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote: ..whilst that is true, should be a given. The fact that it differentiates him, says something

I think you're being a little dismissive - there's working hard and then there's continually being top tackler and top volume carrier for your team, while also making a respectable amount of turnovers. I'd put his workrate up as one of the best in the world, not just in England.

Puja

It's not just workrate, though, it's anticipation. He just knows where play is going to be. Partly instinct, but partly because he's worked so hard on overcoming his physical problems.

100% this. Although I wouldn't say he's got 'physical problems' . Perhaps limitations might have been a better word, but even then, I think it's a touch harsh. No player is perfect and while there are some players with more natural gifts, a lot of what makes Robshaw good has been earned through his willingness to work on his game.

Scrumhead wrote:

Stom wrote:

Puja wrote:
I think you're being a little dismissive - there's working hard and then there's continually being top tackler and top volume carrier for your team, while also making a respectable amount of turnovers. I'd put his workrate up as one of the best in the world, not just in England.

Puja

It's not just workrate, though, it's anticipation. He just knows where play is going to be. Partly instinct, but partly because he's worked so hard on overcoming his physical problems.

100% this. Although I wouldn't say he's got 'physical problems' . Perhaps limitations might have been a better word, but even then, I think it's a touch harsh. No player is perfect and while there are some players with more natural gifts, a lot of what makes Robshaw good has been earned through his willingness to work on his game.

I was talking about when he missed 2 years of rugby with a succession of injury issues - broken leg, knee, ankle, and something else I think That was when he turned from a decent to a good player.

As with Back time out of the game might have proved crucial.

Scrumhead wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Squad announcement tomorrow for get together next week. Going to be interesting. Lions, yes or no? Argentinian tourists retained? Bolters?

Yep. Lots of possible talking points.

I assume we're sticking with a 45-man extended EPS and I guess Eddie needs to think about who he wants in it across the season rather than just early-season form. I'd expect him to pick a pretty familiar squad for the actual EPS but make it a touch more experimental for the AIs.

The best contenders for bolters IMO would be:

Simmonds
Collins
Smith
Dunn (particularly with LCD & Taylor injured)

Beyond that, I'm not sure there's any other uncapped players who have massively put their hand up since the Argentina tour. I haven't included Ben Curry in my bolters as he was already in that squad.

My take on the players in danger of losing out is:

Wood
Harrison
Clifford
Francis (hard luck with injury)
Mullan

Probably a few more I can't think of right this second!

Solomona vs. Yarde is an interesting call ... they're probably competing for one shirt and both have started the season well. I know Yarde has his detractors but he's been very good this season and didn't pi$$ Eddie off at the last training camp.

I'd have Yarde as he has looked very dangerous at the start of this season. I am worried that he'll be another Ashton though - capable of looking brilliant at times, but not able to convert it into international form often enough.

I don't think Dunn will make it myself; I think Singleton will keep his place from the summer. He has improved out of sight after getting involved with England and his basics for Worcester have been probably the best in the Premiership so far. Very pleasing progression from a youngster.

Puja

Training squad announced:

Eddie Jones said: “This camp in Oxford is a really positive opportunity for the group to come back together and sharpen our focus and preparation ahead of our first match against Argentina. This is our most important game this year and we want the players to come away from camp having trained well with a clear plan of how we want to play and win against the Pumas."

England training squad for Oxford camp:

Forwards
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Jonathan Joseph and George Kruis both left out!

Kyle Sinckler, James Haskell too...

Cole, Williams
MVunipola, Marler, Genge
Hartley, George, Dunn
Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, Isiekwe, Ewels
Underhill, Robshaw, TCurry, Hughes, BVunipola

Youngs, Care
Ford, Farrell, Lozowski, Smith
Te'o, Daly, Francis, Slade
Watson, Brown, Yarde, May, Nowell

Is Joseph injured? Easily the biggest surprise for me in terms of absentees with no reason to be absent.

So he isn't resting the Lions except Joseph and Haskelll?! Appears they have simply been dropped? No Joseph is insane if he is fit. Or maybe Eddie just thinks he's made his case and deserves a rest?

No Clifford is a shame as he started the season really well, but great to see Underhill and Curry as the openaide options.

No young, promising scrum-half, yet a whole hoard of 10/12s is a bit annoying.

And no Kruis. Anyone else missing?

No JJ but also no Sinckler, Haskell, Roko, Solomona, no 3rd choice SH (again!) or Wilson. No bolters apart from Smith.

Dunn is a good call and i'm pleased Isiekwe has been retained.

Kruis broken I believe.

Sink is a young prop, a rest won't hurt. Hask had surgery after the tour, so Eddie may want him to prove himself in the AP first.

Joseph didn't play that much in the Lions, and Daly did. I wonder if Eddie fancies trying Daly at 13?

A few surprise omissions and a few surprise inclusions ... it's only a training squad, so I'm not really too bothered by either.

Until the EPS proper is announced, I don't think we can make any real judgement.

It all seems a little muddled at centre. At 10-13, we could select any of the following:

Ford
Farrell
Lozowski
Slade
Smith
Te'o
Francis

And no Joseph or Marchant (who continues to be ace).

Have i got hold of the wrong end of the stick? is this squad the one for the AI's or will different one be announced for that?

fivepointer wrote:Have i got hold of the wrong end of the stick? is this squad the one for the AI's or will different one be announced for that?

This seems to be a training squad...