EPS Watch / Player Form Thread

[Mellsblue]

Not sure what Hughes has done to usurp Robshaw. I haven't seen Lawes play this season but dropping Kruis would be very harsh.

[Puja]

Yup - he's playing 6 for Wasps

Agree that Thompson could be the right injury replacement. Shame for the kid, thought he had a good chance of playing.

I was speaking to an ex-rugby player last night, who felt that England's loose 5 should be:

Launch - Kruis/Lawes

Hughes - BV - Itoje

My response was to question whether there would be enough dirty work being done, but he felt that enough of those players had a sufficiently high work rate and skills over the ball to negate that as an issue.

Interested in your thoughts. It'd certainly give us a pretty solid set piece!

Anyone who would seriously consider dropping Robshaw at this point needs their head examining. He's the closest thing we have to a top-level international openside and pretty much essential if we plan to play a lock at flanker. That's not to mention the fact that he's probably the hardest-working member of the pack. Opting to replace him with the lowest-working member of a pack in Hughes, who is all about the big flashy interventions but not as good at graft... well, I can't see it ending well, that's all I can say.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

Which - just to be difficult - could you add Freddie Burns in next time you update this? No rush.

Sorry, just seen this - yep, I've added him in Excel, so next time I bother making and posting the images, I'll include him.

I also haven't put my thoughts out for the Bath players against Glaws - probably because the match as a whole was so dire

Bath:
Charlie Ewels - Brick wall in defence, only ran into brick walls with the ball - didn't really notice him beyond that.

George Ford - Made sure Bath played in the right places, whether by boot or by hand; 1 moment of magic when defenders sat off him; didn't really have much of a platform, and no-one offering options outside him. Kicking 1/3 + 1DG but bear in mind the standing water - that pitch must have been utterly hazardous for kicking.
Jonathan Joseph - DNP - leg injury.
Semesa Rokoduguni - Looked dangerous when he had the ball, but never really had any space to work with. Maybe could have gone looking for work a bit more, but I don't think there was much point given what else was going on.
Anthony Watson - Got on the score board, looked dangerous when he had the ball, but never really had any space to work with.



Whilst I'm playing with the spreadsheet - are there any other players people want to have a look at?

[Mikey Brown]

Aye. Our lack of effectiveness at 9 and 12 is really magnified by our lack of a decent 7 as it is, I don't see having a pack rammed with lock/flanker hybrids hugely helping that.

I think Itoje could do very well in the backrow, and we've got athletic locks to help even things up, but I'm not banking on it.

[jngf]

England packs seem to have adopted the (comparively) lightweight second row, heavyweight back row structure.
Would prefer to see a heavyweight second row, lighter backrow balance (No.8 excepted). Our second rows: Kruis, Itoje, Launch and Lawes all have strengths but none of them is a true leviathan - and one gaint lock would be a welcome addition

[Peat]

There are no giant locks of a suitable standard available.

Just as there's not really any opensides of a suitable standard available.

I think Nomad's rugby player might be right. Certainly Launch and Itoje are better over the ball than most of the back rows we could select. And, much as I like Robshaw, I don't think he alleviates the concerns you might have about asking three locks to do the work i.e. pace, incredible breakdown work, agility etc.etc.

Maybe sticking Hughes in there rather than Robshaw reduces the work rate a little too much, but given all those years in which Launchbury looked more like England's openside than Robshaw, lets not pretend we need Robshaw to give us a veneer of opensideness.

edit: p.s. Wasn't that long ago that Hughes won about as many turnovers as any man in England.

[Stom]

I don't think giant locks have much place in the modern game fortunately/unfortunately (delete as per personal preference).

It's just too difficult to get enough mobility out of such a powerful frame and still be top quality.

I mean, the really big beasts nowadays are players like Vaahamina or Skelton...who aren't exactly top quality...

[Digby]

How much bigger would someone need to be than Eben Etzebeth to be considered big? And is he not good enough? And would we not have Simon Shaw contesting selection were he aged 24 again?

Also how big were these giants of the past? It might be the case that locks now aren't comparatively as big to other players as were the likes of Merle, but I doubt the modern lock is small Vs the history of the game.

[Mikey Brown]

Etzebeth/Botha are the obvious, recent real 'enforcers' at 4, no one else seems to produce players like that. You're probably right, in the days where you can have a whole 3/4 line that are 6'5", a Martin Johnson doesn't stand out so much. Jngf seems as wedded to the idea of unearthing our Botha as of unearthing our new Back.

For me Launchbury is a very good modern 4, not a monster but he does the grunt stuff. I'm curious what balance Itoje/Kruis will develop together, currently Kruis seems to be both the grunt and the lineout man. Kind of like the Grays for Scotland where Jonny does all the important stuff and Richie just runs around a lot.

Lees/Attwood/Barrow seem like the only real heavyweights but I don't know if any of them are good enough.

[bitts]

See Sam Jones is out.

Real shame for him. But on the other hand we get closer to the answer to the question: just how many back rowers need to be injured before Kvesic gets a go?

Apparently it's quite a lot.

[Mellsblue]

See Sam Jones is out.

Real shame for him. But on the other hand we get closer to the answer to the question: just how many back rowers need to be injured before Kvesic gets a go?

Apparently it's quite a lot.

Sounds like he'd also need a second row to be injured as well.

[Lizard]

Etzebeth/Botha are the obvious, recent real 'enforcers' at 4, no one else seems to produce players like that. You're probably right, in the days where you can have a whole 3/4 line that are 6'5", a Martin Johnson doesn't stand out so much. Jngf seems as wedded to the idea of unearthing our Botha as of unearthing our new Back.
.

Really?

6'8", 19 stone, with handling skills the envy of many professional backs:

[Mikey Brown]

Etzebeth/Botha are the obvious, recent real 'enforcers' at 4, no one else seems to produce players like that. You're probably right, in the days where you can have a whole 3/4 line that are 6'5", a Martin Johnson doesn't stand out so much. Jngf seems as wedded to the idea of unearthing our Botha as of unearthing our new Back.
.

Really?

6'8", 19 stone, with handling skills the envy of many professional backs:

Unless by that you mean charges around beating his chest, head-butting/shoulder-charging anyone in sight (legal or otherwise) because he's an utter, genuine nut-case then I think you made my point for me. The game, with guys like him leading the way, has moved on.

The size of him is nothing outstanding on its own.

I'd have given you Thorn though. He was a real 4, as well as annoyingly pleasant off the pitch for what a psycho he was on it.

[Lizard]

Ah. I thought you were more on about size than "enforcer" mentality. Obviously there is less room in the game for that sort of thing these days, but did you see Patrick Tuipulotu against the Pumas? He's not all that big for a modern prop (6'6", 18st 12lb) but he makes a big, solid impact. He's only a baby though and is our 4th choice lock at the moment.

Most players of truly terrifying size (Will Skelton et al) have generally had such an armchair ride through the lower grades, thanks purely to their bulk, have not developed the skills, fitness or work ethic to be properly effective at test level. For instance, Will's "little" brother Cameron Skelton (6'10", 24st 1lb) was handy for Samoa U20 but has sunk pretty much without trace despite getting a Super Rugby contract with the Chiefs in 2014. He's eligible for NZ, Aust and Samoa so he might still get a shot at test footy.

[twitchy]

Yeah as much as I enjoy the idea of the enforcer it does seem pretty outdated now. England should focus on trying to develop more players like itoje.

[Timbo]

I was going to mention Tuipulotu, he put on some massive shots last weekend.

[Digby]

See Sam Jones is out.

Seems Maro broke him in the new judo coaching put forward by Gustard. Bad news for both players as Maro can't be feeling good about it.

Tbf there are reasons to bring in some of the judo holds and throws, and they did have people down there who really know what they're talking about. And I've not heard if this was as a consequence of a specific drill, as a consequence of a drill done badly, or simply just flat out unlucky.

[Stom]

I feel like, with the standard of conditioning where it is now, the weight to power ratio has changed. So players can get as much power without adding bulk. And added bulk sacrifices other attributes...

Like with the 7 debate. Pocock is incredibly powerful over the ball. But he is like a twig compared to many flankers out there, nevermind 8s. Sure, a lot of that comes from his quite incredible body position, but he has an incredibly powerful core.

[Which Tyler]

Apparently Ali Eykyn has just tweeted that Watson may have a broken jaw from England training this week.

So Watson and May out, Nowell only just back from injury - Bet we still get Roko back for the LowValue Cup

[Stom]

Apparently Ali Eykyn has just tweeted that Watson may have a broken jaw from England training this week.

So Watson and May out, Nowell only just back from injury - Bet we still get Roko back for the LowValue Cup

Training a bit tough, I think...

[fivepointer]

Tough sport that judo, particularly if you get confused with your uchi mata's and o soto gari's.

[Puja]

Apparently Ali Eykyn has just tweeted that Watson may have a broken jaw from England training this week.

So Watson and May out, Nowell only just back from injury - Bet we still get Roko back for the LowValue Cup

Training a bit tough, I think...

Or maybe we just shouldn't let Itoje play with the regular kids. They appear to be a bit fragile comparatively. Eddie was due a run of bad luck with injuries - he's been relatively blessed so far in his England career.

I was just thinking this morning of what the most disappointing plausible side that could turn out would be. It disturbs me that I can quite easily imagine Eddie naming a backline of Youngs, Farrell, Yarde, Te'o, Joseph, Nowell, Brown.

Puja

[Lizard]

Why are these Englishmen so fragile? To many weights, not enough stretching and contact work, I expect.


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[Which Tyler]

1. MVunipola
2. Hartley (c)
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Kruis
6. Itoje
7. Robshaw
8. BVunipola

9. Robson
10. Ford
11. Nowell
12. Slade
13. Joseph
14. Rokoduguni
15. Daly

16. George; 17. Genge; 18. Sinckler; 19. Beamont; 20. Harrison
21. Youngs (Simpson not in squad); 22. Te'o; 23. Brown

[Mikey Brown]

I'd be very pleased, but rather amazed, if we see a backline that devoid of the usual stodge. I don't mean not to wish Farrell well but I do hope this is a chance for Slade to get his foot in the door. I think Farrell as a 10 would also benefit from a 12 like him if he can regularly show half of what he's got on paper.

What is the wing pecking order currently?

Watson - injured
May - unknown but injured anyway
Nowell - back from injury now?
Rokoduguni - great form
Yarde - I'm repeatedly told is in awful form (just because Quins are?) but appears to be the only player regularly busting tackles and running good lines
Wade - I just assume he's not trusted at this level for whatever reason
Ashton - is he simply out of the picture now?

Who have I forgotten? I have this weird feeling that Banahan could actually be quite useful but it's very unlikely. Thompstone I also think is underrated but similarly unlikely.