Anti-Zionism

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Stones of granite
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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rowan wrote:
Stones of granite wrote:
rowan wrote:
Usual fucking bollox
Stop deliberately misleading people then talking bollox when pulled up on it. Is that clear enough for you, tosspot?
You need to stop side-tracking the issue with personal attacks and being a condescending twat. Now, back to the topic...

The Turkish government is now calling for Israel to be hauled up before the International Criminal Court, but we all know the only ones who go there are Africans and Slavs, which is why the Africans have set up their own criminal court and are beginning to withdraw from the ICC.
I would, but it’s all part of your little game. You deliberately through some lies into the mix, then whine like a little bitch when you get called out on t claiming it is going off topic.

Here’s a top tip you supercilious cunt, if you you use your fabulous journalistic skills and superior English language knowledge to be accurate, whilst leaving out the little lies, nobody will drag it off topic.
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rowan
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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As I said earlier, Stones of Cowardice, it is you who came along out of the blue and sidetracked the discussion with personal attacks. Derailing the discussion is clearly your objective because you are a cowardly, arrogant racist. You're offended by all this criticism of Israel even as it carries out mass-murder of an unarmed civilian population once again, and that is the basis of your hostility. You have already demonstrated your ignorance of issues in this part of the world on another thread with your wayward comments about Turkey and Syria. So I'm calling you out as a coward and a racist.

Now back to the topic . . .

Good interview with Dr Finkelstein here:

If they're good enough to play at World Cups, why not in between?
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morepork
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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rowan wrote:As I said earlier, Stones of Cowardice, it is you who came along out of the blue and sidetracked the discussion with personal attacks. Derailing the discussion is clearly your objective because you are a cowardly, arrogant racist. You're offended by all this criticism of Israel even as it carries out mass-murder of an unarmed civilian population once again, and that is the basis of your hostility. You have already demonstrated your ignorance of issues in this part of the world on another thread with your wayward comments about Turkey and Syria. So I'm calling you out as a coward and a racist.

Now back to the topic . . .

Good interview with Dr Finkelstein here:


You're a dick mate.
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rowan
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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So the Israelis have been celebrating this and calling for a completion of the ethnic cleansing process, secure in the knowledge that the US will veto any resolution the UN attempts to bring against them. You will notice there are some criticisms of Russian indifference in this interview as well. That's what has really let the Palestinian cause down - not one major power is willing to support them. Indigenous minorities all around the world have suffered the same fate. Israel provided the weapons for the Mayan genocide in Guatemala in the 1980s, of course, and maintains a heavy presence in the US-backed dictatorship to this day (which is why Guatemala is following America's lead and moving its embassy to Jerusalem as well).

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rowan
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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Shocking!

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Re: Anti-Zionism

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This seems a pretty good piece to me, though it may for some be too much of a news article, i.e. it probably doesn't editorialise enough for those more on the margins

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/16/worl ... fence.html

A snaking metal fence that divides the Gaza Strip from Israel has become the latest focal point in a generations-long conflict between Arabs and Jews in the area.

It was along this fence that at least 60 Palestinians were killed and many hundreds wounded on Monday as thousands converged to protest what they call an arbitrarily enforced demarcation line by an occupier. As protesters rushed toward the fence, some throwing rocks or homemade fire bombs, Israeli soldiers fired live bullets, which the Israeli military said was done as a last resort.

What are the fence’s origins and purpose in separating Gaza, a 25-mile-long, five-mile-wide Mediterranean coastal enclave where nearly two million Palestinians live? Is the fence recognized as an international border? And how has Israel justified deadly force to stop mostly unarmed Palestinians from breaching it? Here are the basics:

What is the fence?
The fence is actually two parallel barriers built by the Israelis: a formidable one of barbed-wire within Gaza and a 10-foot-high metal “smart fence” packed with surveillance sensors along the Israel demarcation line. A restricted buffer zone as wide as 300 yards is between them. Israel has warned that people in the zone without authorization risk being subjected to deadly force.

What is the history?
Like other parts of the Holy Land, Gaza’s history stretches back to ancient times. It was originally a Canaanite settlement and was variously ruled later by the Israelites, Egyptians, Romans and Ottomans, among others. The British seized the territory during World War I.

Gaza’s boundaries were established in a 1949 armistice agreement between Egypt and Israel, halting the conflict after the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. During the Arab-Israeli war of that period, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were forced from their homes or fled, many to Gaza, and they and their descendants have been classified as refugees by the United Nations.

Egypt occupied Gaza until the Arab-Israeli War of 1967, when Israel seized the territory.

The first Gaza-Israel fence went up in 1994 as a way to control Palestinian movement after the Oslo Accords — the agreement aimed at ending the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians and establishing a Palestinian state.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, vacating all Israeli settlements and removing its soldiers. But Israel maintains control of the northern and eastern land boundaries — Egypt controls the southern crossing, known as Rafah — and Israel controls the air and sea approaches. Most Gaza-bound food, fuel and other aid flows through Israeli-controlled crossings.

Like the Israelis, the Egyptians have in recent years restricted the movement of people and goods in and out of Gaza. Both Israel and Egypt imposed a blockade on Gaza after Hamas, the Palestinian militant organization that denies Israel’s right to exist, took control there more than a decade ago.

The deprivations in Gaza have continually worsened. Most of its people rely on aid from the United Nations and other outside groups, and the inability of residents to freely leave has created what human rights advocates call an open-air prison.
Why is the conflict flaring up now?
The “March of Return,” as Palestinians are calling the protest campaign that began in March, was intended by its creators to publicize global awareness that about two-thirds of Gaza residents are considered Palestinian refugees.

The Israelis have accused Hamas, which Israel, the United States and several other countries consider a terrorist organization, of exploiting the “March of Return” to physically attack Israel.

“Hamas has used ‘nonviolent protests’ to attempt to overrun Israel’s border and kill its civilians, and it is Hamas that bears responsibility for the recent bloodshed,” the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, an influential lobby group in the United States, said Wednesday in countering critics of Israel’s behavior.
So is the fence a legal border?
It is not recognized as a border like that between two sovereign nations. While Israel has created what it regards as a defensive buffer zone inside Gaza for security, Israel has not altered the original 1949 armistice line that delineated the territory.

Supporters of a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict foresee Gaza as part of a future Palestinian state. But for now, Gaza’s status is complicated.

“Gaza is not a Palestinian state,” said David Makovsky, an expert at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. “Part of the problem is that nobody wants Gaza.”

While Egypt could theoretically do more to ease the travails of Gaza’s population, Mr. Makovsky said, “Egypt sees it as political quicksand.”

The Palestinians and United Nations human rights officials say Israel remains an occupying power in Gaza, making it subject to certain obligations to protect civilians under international law, because the Israelis exert effective control over most of Gaza’s land, air and sea borders.

Israel has rejected that argument, asserting that it voluntarily departed Gaza 13 years ago.

“The political point is that each side of this conflict has their own narrative about the status of the Gaza Strip and Israel’s role,” said Tamara Cofman Wittes, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution’s Center for Middle East Policy. “The argument is not whether this is a border. The argument is whether Israel is occupying Gaza.”

Do border protests violate Israel’s sovereignty?
Israel considers attempts by Palestinian protesters to approach the fence a threat to its sovereignty, and has framed its responses to these protests as a lawful defense of the Israeli border. The Israeli authorities have dropped leaflets over Gaza warning Palestinians to not approach the fence.

“The Israel Defense Forces is determined to defend Israel’s citizens and sovereignty against Hamas’s attempts at terrorism under cover of violent riots,” the leaflets read, a position reiterated by Ronen Manelis, a spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces. “A sovereign nation cannot allow this,” he said.

The question of whether the protesters threaten Israeli sovereignty is part of the broader dispute, Middle East scholars say.

Nadia Abu El-Haj, co-director of the Center for Palestine Studies at Columbia University and a professor of anthropology at Barnard College, argued that Israel’s own actions across the fence meant that it was not a border.
“A border implies a place where one state’s authority ends and another’s begins,” Dr. Abu El-Haj said. “Israel has never recognized the fence as a limit to its authority. Through closure and military incursions, Israel sustains its sovereign authority over the territory.”
Is deadly force at the fence defensible?
While Israeli authorities have justified the military’s use of deadly force, many international monitoring groups, including Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, have condemned it. A number of countries at the United Nations have asked for an independent inquiry into the deaths.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel said that defending the border fence with lethal force was necessary.

“I don’t know of any army that would do anything differently if you had to protect your border against people who say, ‘We’re going to destroy you, and we’re going to flood into your country,’” Mr. Netanyahu told CBS News.

Other Israelis have said that if thousands of angry Palestinians breached the Gaza fence, the outcome would be far bloodier.

The Israeli military maintains it is only targeting those instigating violence, and has sought to use nonlethal deterrents — including drones that drop tear gas — to counter the protests.
American officials have backed Israel’s actions. Heather Nauert, the State Department spokeswoman, said “Israel has a right to defend itself,” while Nikki R. Haley, the United States ambassador to the United Nations, said Israel had responded with “restraint.”

United Nations human rights officials have disputed that view. Michael Lynk, the special rapporteur on human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory, said the killings on Monday reflected a “blatant excessive use of force by Israel” and likened them to “an eye for an eyelash.”

Mr. Lynk said that protesters appeared to pose no credible threat to Israeli military forces on the Israeli side. Under humanitarian law, he said, the killing of unarmed demonstrators could amount to a war crime, and he added that “impunity for these actions is not an option.”
fivepointer
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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some more very good insight here too - http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-an ... -explainer
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rowan
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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US mainstream media has taken the victim-blaming approach as usual, describing the fatal shooting of unarmed protesters in their scores as violent clashes, as if kites and stones from a few angry youths were a genuine threat to heavily armed soldiers in goggles and helmets, hidden behind a massive barbed wire fence. They're all Hamas agents, of course, including the women, including the children, and even including the four month old baby who was gassed to death in a tent some distance from the actual demonstrations.

America and a few other countries consider Hamas a terrorist group? - let me guess: Guam, Kiribati and the Marshall Islands? A couple of Central American dictatorships? The same countries who regarded Nelson Mandela's ANC is a terrorist group during the Apartheid era, perhaps (the US only removed the ANC in 2008, including Mandela, who was then 90).

Here's what I wrote about Hamas in 2014:

- they were founded in response to decades of Israeli state terrorism
- they have responded to the language of violence with violence
- violent methods against an illegal occupation are forms of resistance
- they were also founded due to the impotence of Fatah
- their foundation was encouraged by Israel to counter the PLO
- Israel refused to negotiate peace with the PLO even when Arafat offered them such generous terms his own people were furious
- Israel state terrorism equates to ethnic cleansing
- Hamas is a political organization
- Hamas is the elected choice of its people
- Hamas' terms for a long-standing ceasefire are more than reasonable
- Hamas controls the Gazan tunnels and pays the wages of thousands of Palestinians
- they have killed more soldiers in this conflict than civilians (3) and no children
- Israel has killed mostly civilians (approx. 2000), including several hundred children
- Claims Hamas uses human shields have been dismissed by international journalists and aid workers in Gaza
- International journalists and aid workers claim it is Israel which uses human shields
- Claims Hamas stores weapons in hospitals, schools, etc, have been dismissed by international journalists and aid workers
- Israel's military HQ is in the middle of Tel Aviv. Does that make the people of Tel Aviv 'human shields?'
- Hamas has become the convenient excuse for Israel to justify its illegal occupation, ethnic cleansing, colonization & Apartheid programmes, just as the Apartheid regime of SA pointed the finger at the ANC
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rowan
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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More insight from veteran British journalist and award-winning author Robert Fisk:

The victims are themselves the culprits. This is exactly what the Palestinians have had to endure for 70 years. Remember how they were to blame for their own exodus seven decades ago, because they followed the instructions of radio stations to leave their homes until the Jews of Israel were “driven into the sea”. Only of course, the radio broadcasts never existed. We still must thank Israel’s “new historians” for proving this. The broadcasts were a myth, part of Israel’s foundational national history invented to ensure that the new state – far from being founded on the ruins of others’ homes – was a land without people.

And it was a marvel to behold the way in which the same old reporting cowardice began to infect the media’s account of what happened in Gaza. CNN called the Israeli killings a “crackdown”.

References to the tragedy of the Palestinians in many news media referred to their “displacement” 70 years ago – as if they happened to be on holiday at the time of the “Nakba” – the catastrophe, as it’s known – and just couldn’t make it home again. The word to use should have been perfectly clear: dispossession. Because that is what happened to the Palestinians all those years ago and what is still happening in the West Bank – today, as you read this – courtesy of men like Jared Kushner, Donald Trump’s son-in-law, a supporter of these wretched and illegal colonies built on Arab lands and appropriated from Arabs who have owned and lived on the land for generations.

And so we come to the most ghastly of all fateful events last week: the simultaneous bloodbath in Gaza and the glorious opening of the new US embassy in Jerusalem.

“It’s a great day for peace,” Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, announced. When I heard that, I wondered if my hearing was defective. Did he actually say those words? Alas, he did. At times like this, it is an immense relief to find that journals like the Israeli daily Haaretz maintain their sense of honour. And the most remarkable piece of reportage came in The New York Times where Michelle Goldberg caught perfectly the horror of both Gaza and the embassy opening in Jerusalem.

The latter, she wrote, was “grotesque… a consummation of the cynical alliance between hawkish Jews and Zionist evangelicals who believe that the return of Jews to Israel will usher in the apocalypse and the return of Christ, after which Jews who don’t convert will burn forever.” Goldberg pointed out that Robert Jeffress, a Dallas pastor, gave the opening prayer at the embassy ceremony.

And Jeffress it was who once claimed that religions like “Mormonism, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism” lead people “to an eternity of separation from God in hell”. The closing benediction came from John Hagee, an end-times preacher who, Goldberg recalled, once said that Hitler was sent by God to drive the Jews to their ancestral homeland.

Of Gaza, she added: “even if you completely dismiss the Palestinian right of return – which I find harder to do now that Israel has all but abandoned the possibility of a Palestinian state – it hardly excuses the Israeli military’s disproportionate violence.” I’m not so sure, though, that Democrats have become more emboldened to discuss Israeli occupation, as she thinks. But I think she’s right when she says that as long as Trump is president, “it may be that Israel can kill Palestinians, demolish their homes and appropriate their land with impunity”.

Rarely in modern times have we come across an entire people – the Palestinians – treated as a non-people. Amid the trash and rats of the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in Lebanon – oh fateful names they remain – there is a hut-museum of items brought into Lebanon from Galilee by those first refugees of the late 1940s: coffee pots and front door keys to houses long destroyed. They locked up their houses, many of them, planning to return in a few days.

But they are dying fast, that generation, like the dead of the Second World War. Even in the oral archives of the Palestinian expulsion (at least 800 survivors are recorded) organised in the American University of Beirut, they are finding that many whose voices were recorded in the late 1990s have since died.

So will they go home? Will they “return”? That, I suspect, is Israel’s greatest fear, not because there are homes to “return” to, but because there are millions of Palestinians who claim their right – under UN resolutions – and who might turn up in their tens of thousands at the border fence in Gaza next time.

How many snipers will Israel need then? And of course, there are the pitiful ironies. For there are families in Gaza whose grandfathers and grandmothers were driven from their homes less than a mile from Gaza itself, from two villages which existed precisely where stands today the Israeli town of Sderot, so often rocketed by Hamas. They can still see their lands. And when you can see your land, you want to go home.



https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/05/18 ... nt-people/
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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Fucking hell, this tit-for tat cut and paste of carefully selected op-ed pieces to lecture an online audience, non of whom who have disagreed with the essence of any points you keep raising over and over again, is just childishly redundant. What do you want? A gold fucking star on your chart for this week?
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rowan
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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Protest against the US embassy's Jerusalem move in Istanbul today:

Image
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Re: Anti-Zionism

Post by Digby »

morepork wrote:Fucking hell, this tit-for tat cut and paste of carefully selected op-ed pieces to lecture an online audience, non of whom who have disagreed with the essence of any points you keep raising over and over again, is just childishly redundant. What do you want? A gold fucking star on your chart for this week?
On balance I'd have less issue with that and more issue with the following claims

- Hamas is a political organization
- Hamas' terms for a long-standing ceasefire are more than reasonable
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rowan
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Re: Anti-Zionism

Post by rowan »

Digby wrote:
On balance I'd have less issue with that and more issue with the following claims

- Hamas is a political organization
- Hamas' terms for a long-standing ceasefire are more than reasonable
So tell us what the terms are, Digby. Do you even know? There were plenty of people had issues with the ANC during the Apartheid years as well. Resistance to violent oppression has never been entirely peaceful, not even in India.
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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I think that covers all bases adequately
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Re: Anti-Zionism

Post by Digby »

I remain of the view that establishing a Jewish state, indeed any religious state, is a daft idea, and to use the location of Israel no matter the historical claims dafter still. But what's done is for now done, or at least I have no idea how you'd start to reasonably undo it. And thus there will be problems with any failure to recognise the state of Israel, and problems in seeking control of Jerusalem.
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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The world is too complex to embrace absolute moralism in foreign policy.
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Mellsblue
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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canta_brian wrote:The world is too complex to embrace absolute moralism in foreign policy.
This.
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rowan
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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Mellsblue wrote:
canta_brian wrote:The world is too complex to embrace absolute moralism in foreign policy.
This.
Silly comment, and basically a cop-out. You either have a spine or you don't.
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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Mellsblue wrote:
canta_brian wrote:The world is too complex to embrace absolute moralism in foreign policy.
This.
It will not take long for someone to observe that their view of the world is the one true vision and you simply lack the nerve to see the vision brought true. Sadly for most of us these visionaries aren't dissuaded from the purity of their aims by destruction of property, democracy and lives.
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rowan
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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Digby wrote:
Mellsblue wrote:
canta_brian wrote:The world is too complex to embrace absolute moralism in foreign policy.
This.
It will not take long for someone to observe that their view of the world is the one true vision and you simply lack the nerve to see the vision brought true. Sadly for most of us these visionaries aren't dissuaded from the purity of their aims by destruction of property, democracy and lives.
Silly comment, and basically a cop-out. You either have a spine or you don't.
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Re: Anti-Zionism

Post by Digby »

rowan wrote:
Digby wrote:
Mellsblue wrote: This.
It will not take long for someone to observe that their view of the world is the one true vision and you simply lack the nerve to see the vision brought true. Sadly for most of us these visionaries aren't dissuaded from the purity of their aims by destruction of property, democracy and lives.
Silly comment, and basically a cop-out. You either have a spine or you don't.
And taken as a for instance the Israeli settlers will take a view they have a spine, that they may accordingly act as they see fit with the rest of us just having to accept that. Which is the problem with the stance you're taking as it entitles those on both sides to act they will and not merely those groups you support
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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Israeli settlers will take a view they have a spine

You mean those colonizing Palestinian territory by way of massacres, terrorism and general ethnic cleansing. Oooooooookay... :roll:
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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rowan wrote: Israeli settlers will take a view they have a spine

You mean those colonizing Palestinian territory by way of massacres, terrorism and general ethnic cleansing. Oooooooookay... :roll:
Secure as they are in their morale absolutism they have no issue with their actions, which is why to me it's odd you'd defend them.
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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Digby wrote:
rowan wrote: Israeli settlers will take a view they have a spine

You mean those colonizing Palestinian territory by way of massacres, terrorism and general ethnic cleansing. Oooooooookay... :roll:
Secure as they are in their morale absolutism they have no issue with their actions, which is why to me it's odd you'd defend them.
I see, you're using the impersonal you, I take it. Since I'm clearly condemning them personally, as anyone with a spine should.
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Re: Anti-Zionism

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rowan wrote:
Digby wrote:
rowan wrote: Israeli settlers will take a view they have a spine

You mean those colonizing Palestinian territory by way of massacres, terrorism and general ethnic cleansing. Oooooooookay... :roll:
Secure as they are in their morale absolutism they have no issue with their actions, which is why to me it's odd you'd defend them.
I see, you're using the impersonal you, I take it. Since I'm clearly condemning them personally, as anyone with a spine should.
People who have a spine don't only exist on one side of a dispute, so for as long as there are enough people willing to act on the basis of a spine and some certainty of their actions then large areas of the world will remain a shithouse. So you may dislike the settlers, but you're in support of their model of deciding on actions.

Or we could accept on the stage of global relations the situations faced are too complex for absolute moralism.
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