RugbyRebels

fivepointer wrote:

Banquo wrote:we've got a lot of learnings...lot of young lads.....new combos.....full 80. I dont envy Tom Curry having to do the interview....but...

Its a thankless task after a performance like that but this was an experienced England side. It wasnt a bunch of young lads. There was caps aplenty throughout the side and even on the bench.
I thought Freeman and Chick (who was subbed early, natch) were among our better players and they arent exactly 50 cap veterans.
we were so poor in so many areas that you have to look at how this team have been prepared over the last few weeks.

yep.

Was it actually England? Looks like Welsh colours in the photos I've seen. Just hoping....

Mellsblue wrote:Eddie ‘Manchurian Candidate’ Jones.

I got pilloried on here three years ago for opining that Jones was floundering. After the last two 6Ns can anybody argue that he knows what he is doing? Now, we've conceded 52 points to a scratch team handicapped by a red card. The RFU should break the bank and get Edwards in.

Which Tyler wrote:

francoisfou wrote:Did Skelton really deserve red there?

Yes.
100% Yes.

I seem to be outnumbered by about 50:1 here, so backing down may be the appropriate thing to do!
However .........

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Eddie ‘Manchurian Candidate’ Jones.

I got pilloried on here three years ago for opining that Jones was floundering. After the last two 6Ns can anybody argue that he knows what he is doing? Now, we've conceded 52 points to a scratch team handicapped by a red card. The RFU should break the bank and get Edwards in.

By some. Others asked who you’d replace him with and didn’t really get an answer. Edwards won’t leave France, IMO, and hasn’t ever been the top man*. If they were to move now then Borthwick or McFarland seem to be sensible answers… but I doubt they will.
There’s always the chance he may turn it round - there were, to a lesser, extent bad patches prior to the World Cup in Japan - and that’s all that really matters in the modern World Cup or bust world. Well, that and making sure HQ is sweated to within an inch of its life.

*fairly certain Gatland was DoR when Edwards was HC at Wasps.

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Eddie ‘Manchurian Candidate’ Jones.

I got pilloried on here three years ago for opining that Jones was floundering. After the last two 6Ns can anybody argue that he knows what he is doing? Now, we've conceded 52 points to a scratch team handicapped by a red card. The RFU should break the bank and get Edwards in.

By some. Others asked who you’d replace him with and didn’t really get an answer. Edwards won’t leave France, IMO, and hasn’t ever been the top man*. If they were to move now then Borthwick or McFarland seem to be sensible answers… but I doubt they will.
There’s always the chance he may turn it round - there were, to a lesser, extent bad patches prior to the World Cup in Japan - and that’s all that really matters in the modern World Cup or bust world. Well, that and making sure HQ is sweated to within an inch of its life.

*fairly certain Gatland was DoR when Edwards was HC at Wasps.

Can anyone that watched yesterday's final honestly, hand on heart, tell me that's how they'd want to watch England play?

switchskier wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
I got pilloried on here three years ago for opining that Jones was floundering. After the last two 6Ns can anybody argue that he knows what he is doing? Now, we've conceded 52 points to a scratch team handicapped by a red card. The RFU should break the bank and get Edwards in.

By some. Others asked who you’d replace him with and didn’t really get an answer. Edwards won’t leave France, IMO, and hasn’t ever been the top man*. If they were to move now then Borthwick or McFarland seem to be sensible answers… but I doubt they will.
There’s always the chance he may turn it round - there were, to a lesser, extent bad patches prior to the World Cup in Japan - and that’s all that really matters in the modern World Cup or bust world. Well, that and making sure HQ is sweated to within an inch of its life.

*fairly certain Gatland was DoR when Edwards was HC at Wasps.

Can anyone that watched yesterday's final honestly, hand on heart, tell me that's how they'd want to watch England play?

Nope, but it’s better than what we’ve seen from England this year and not much different to the 18 months prior to that. Borthwick may also coach to a different game plan with his pick of England’s best players.
I’m also not necessarily advocating that we change HC.

As I type, the thought has also occurred to me that Jones’s recent best periods have been with Borthwick as his side kick and it’s really fallen to pieces since he left for Leicester…

switchskier wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
I got pilloried on here three years ago for opining that Jones was floundering. After the last two 6Ns can anybody argue that he knows what he is doing? Now, we've conceded 52 points to a scratch team handicapped by a red card. The RFU should break the bank and get Edwards in.

By some. Others asked who you’d replace him with and didn’t really get an answer. Edwards won’t leave France, IMO, and hasn’t ever been the top man*. If they were to move now then Borthwick or McFarland seem to be sensible answers… but I doubt they will.
There’s always the chance he may turn it round - there were, to a lesser, extent bad patches prior to the World Cup in Japan - and that’s all that really matters in the modern World Cup or bust world. Well, that and making sure HQ is sweated to within an inch of its life.

*fairly certain Gatland was DoR when Edwards was HC at Wasps.

Can anyone that watched yesterday's final honestly, hand on heart, tell me that's how they'd want to watch England play?

Hand on heart I don’t care, as long as there’s a discernible philosophy and we’re maximising our potential. Right now we’re a rabble and there’s a whole bunch of stuff I don’t understand, both in selection and tactics.

Main things for me from that were the front 5 (outside of Ewels all players I was quite looking forward to seeing) were all absolutely awful and I think they'll all be lucky to get back in an England shirt. I'll give Rodd the benefit of the doubt as he's been brilliant every other time I've seen him, but everyone else...
Other main thing was defensive organisation. Hate to say it but maybe we need Farrell just to shout at people to get into position? They don't seem able to do it on their own.
Smith had some moments of magic, but he probably could also do with a sensible head next to him. Good to see both wingers back, although May seemed to revert to his old headless chicken ways a few times, and Cokanisiga looked a bit wary of trucking the ball up full pelt. Still ridiculously big and fast though.

Mellsblue wrote:“Five on the bounce” oh to be a Baabaa.

I think I'd end up underground after 5 sessions of it these days.

Danno wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:“Five on the bounce” oh to be a Baabaa.

I think I'd end up underground after 5 sessions of it these days.

Ha, yep. I say ‘oh to be a Baabaa’ but I went on a two day stag do last weekend and I wasn’t myself until the evening three days layers.

Mellsblue wrote:

switchskier wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: By some. Others asked who you’d replace him with and didn’t really get an answer. Edwards won’t leave France, IMO, and hasn’t ever been the top man*. If they were to move now then Borthwick or McFarland seem to be sensible answers… but I doubt they will.
There’s always the chance he may turn it round - there were, to a lesser, extent bad patches prior to the World Cup in Japan - and that’s all that really matters in the modern World Cup or bust world. Well, that and making sure HQ is sweated to within an inch of its life.

*fairly certain Gatland was DoR when Edwards was HC at Wasps.

Can anyone that watched yesterday's final honestly, hand on heart, tell me that's how they'd want to watch England play?

Nope, but it’s better than what we’ve seen from England this year and not much different to the 18 months prior to that. Borthwick may also coach to a different game plan with his pick of England’s best players.
I’m also not necessarily advocating that we change HC.

As I type, the thought has also occurred to me that Jones’s recent best periods have been with Borthwick as his side kick and it’s really fallen to pieces since he left for Leicester…

I wouldn't hold your breath for Borthwick finding an attacking streak. He likes his set piece, his territory domination and his work rate. If those things mean his team can attack and score tries then great but any team he coaches is unlikely to be playing phases in their own half.

I'm not sure Tigers would be very happy if the RFU came calling this summer, Pinchen in interviews seems resigned to the possibility next summer but this summer would require a hefty wedge from the RFU.

I'm not sure how much of today's absolute shit show was Eddie's fault. Neither scrum half showed a modicum of control with Care comprehensively outplayed by somebody around half his age. Atkinson didn't help the struggling Smith by giving him a platform either, Botia smashed him all over the place. Smith himself showed flashes of brilliance but he doesn't control proceedings and those around him were ineffective. Outside of Curry the starting forwards should be concerned over their future international prospects. Lawes looked good off the bench but to lose up front against 7, you've got to look at the players and question whether the right ones are there. I can see significant changes on Monday.

Jones picked the team, the strategy and the tactics. He supervised all preparation. How can it NOT be his fault?

Oakboy wrote:Jones picked the team, the strategy and the tactics. He supervised all preparation. How can it NOT be his fault?

It cant. Coaches have to accept the blame when it goes wrong.

Most of us thought he had picked a strong team. He had to make do a bit in the front row but most of the selections he made were players he's capped or had in the squad at times over the last few years.

Oakboy wrote:Jones picked the team, the strategy and the tactics. He supervised all preparation. How can it NOT be his fault?

He's certainly got to accept a proportion of the blame but the players need to shoulder a fair bit themselves because their efforts were frankly pathetic.

Some good, some bad, but just didn’t look like a team in the slightest, and there’s only so much room I’m willing to give Curry’s excuses of young lads and inexperience.

Awful stuff from a team that looked nicely balanced on paper. No cohesion. No heart.

What the hell was going on with Collier?

Mikey Brown wrote: What the hell was going on with Collier?

The bizarre substitution? Mystic Eddie foresaw Schickerling bumping into Skelton's motionless shoulder by accident.

Englands best player today was Kruis, sums it all up really.

Timbo wrote:

switchskier wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: By some. Others asked who you’d replace him with and didn’t really get an answer. Edwards won’t leave France, IMO, and hasn’t ever been the top man*. If they were to move now then Borthwick or McFarland seem to be sensible answers… but I doubt they will.
There’s always the chance he may turn it round - there were, to a lesser, extent bad patches prior to the World Cup in Japan - and that’s all that really matters in the modern World Cup or bust world. Well, that and making sure HQ is sweated to within an inch of its life.

*fairly certain Gatland was DoR when Edwards was HC at Wasps.

Can anyone that watched yesterday's final honestly, hand on heart, tell me that's how they'd want to watch England play?

Hand on heart I don’t care, as long as there’s a discernible philosophy and we’re maximising our potential. Right now we’re a rabble and there’s a whole bunch of stuff I don’t understand, both in selection and tactics.

this- any form of substance would do, style is secondary

Wow … not even really sure what to say about that. I’ve seen some poor England sides over years, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a performance as woefully, inexcusably terrible as what I witnessed today.

Whoa. Just watched the highlights but that was bad. Not sure the word highlight applies. Smith seemed to have his moments. Nice to see Cokanasiga running around.

FKAS wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

switchskier wrote:
Can anyone that watched yesterday's final honestly, hand on heart, tell me that's how they'd want to watch England play?

Nope, but it’s better than what we’ve seen from England this year and not much different to the 18 months prior to that. Borthwick may also coach to a different game plan with his pick of England’s best players.
I’m also not necessarily advocating that we change HC.

As I type, the thought has also occurred to me that Jones’s recent best periods have been with Borthwick as his side kick and it’s really fallen to pieces since he left for Leicester…

He likes his set piece, his territory domination and his work rate. If those things mean his team can attack and score tries then great but any team he coaches is unlikely to be playing phases in their own half.

You could be describing any of 90% of the professional coaches in the world.

badback wrote:Whoa. Just watched the highlights but that was bad. Not sure the word highlight applies. Smith seemed to have his moments. Nice to see Cokanasiga running around.

Don't put yourself through the whole thing from an Eng pov. Worth watching for the BaaBaas performance though, they played some vintage stuff.

Banquo wrote:

Timbo wrote:

switchskier wrote:
Can anyone that watched yesterday's final honestly, hand on heart, tell me that's how they'd want to watch England play?

Hand on heart I don’t care, as long as there’s a discernible philosophy and we’re maximising our potential. Right now we’re a rabble and there’s a whole bunch of stuff I don’t understand, both in selection and tactics.

this- any form of substance would do, style is secondary

Let's face it, when Jones was winning matches anything else was secondary. If he does not though, all aspects of criticism become fair game. Losing AND being boring crap tend to concentrate the mind somewhat. In terms of simple effectiveness when was the last 'best possible' performance, win or lose? Our players may not be world-beaters but the team performances (after six years of preparation) ought to be greater than the sum of the individual parts whereas, game after game, they are less. I can't understand any defence of that state of affairs.

badback wrote:Whoa. Just watched the highlights but that was bad. Not sure the word highlight applies. Smith seemed to have his moments. Nice to see Cokanasiga running around.

Still not convinced by Cokanasiga. He may be big and quite fast but parts of his game need work. At one point he was easily eluded by his opposite number, the lightweight teenager, Yashvili, and looked clumsy. At the moment there are probably several better English wings.