Transfer gossip - sometimes even accurate (accidentally) - Season 2022/23

[FKAS]

Decent news for WJoseph though, getting more game time in his favoured position.

I wonder if he's got a good contract available in SR and Irish are thinking they could bring in two ex-Worcester for the same cost? Hope it's a mutual arrangement rather than finance.

Puja

Not if Irish fold, as rumoured.

The rumour appears based on very little though. I want to be cautious about giving it too much weight.

Puja

Presumably on the back of this last month play the other financial struggles in the league.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -FREE.html

[Margin_Walker]

LI's an interesting one in that we are only in imminent danger of collapse if Mick Crossan is about to walk away without another investor lined up (a big ask tbf).

Compared to other clubs in the league, there's not a huge amount of external debt iirc. Most of the debt is owed to Powerday/Crossan. He's the sort of owner you want for a loss making business (a fan first and foremost), but he's clearly feeling the pain and doesn't want to service the losses indefinitely. So a lot depends on how close he is to breaking.

On Rona, it may be that we don't replace him. There's certainly a lot of cover there at 13 outside of the international windows and if you wanted to shave a few hundred grand off the payroll, that's where you would do it. I don't think him leaving was triggered necessarily by financial difficulty though. Looks pretty clear that he forced the move.

[Scrumhead]

Yeah, that’s how I saw it re. Rona. It was obviously bubbling for a while but a bit of a dick move to go AWOL and ghost your coach and teammates.

Re. finances, I’d have thought Irish have one of the better opportunities to grow their fan base in the league. They play an exciting brand of rugby, have access to a very nice, modern stadium and are in a heavily populated area. The potential is definitely there.

[FKAS]

Telegraph reporting Rona had previously gone AWOL for a week.

Rona was rumoured to be on quite a substantial contract, might be LI can sign more than just Wuss (or maybe Wasps) players to replace him. Francois Venter is a good experienced centre that hits hard. LI are a bit reliant on Jackson, if they can get Searle on a good deal that might be some handy insurance.

They have Will Joseph, Luca Morisi and Lucio Cinti who all play 13, so I think they’re OK without needing to bring in a replacement.

I was thinking Venter as he can play 12/13 and would be cheap given his circumstance. LI do have a reliance on van Rensburg at 12 just like they do Jackson at 10, both great players but should injury strike... Owen Williams could be good cover but not exactly the best fitness history.

It's good to hear LI fans talking with positivity, they are an interesting club that plays fun rugby. Wouldn't like to lose them from the league.

[Margin_Walker]

Yeah, don't really fancy Williams. I think we'll probably try to muddle through and if we spend the Rona cash, it will likely be up front. May be wrong though.

Definitely, reliant on van Rensburg at the moment and he may even end up at 13 (where he's played a lot of rugby in Japan/SA) with Hitchcock/Jennings/Matt Williams into 12

On the fun rugby point, that's the irony of the whole situation. The product is better than it's ever been across the league. The market just doesn't be there to sustain it at its current level though.

[Mellsblue]

Re. finances, I’d have thought Irish have one of the better opportunities to grow their fan base in the league. They play an exciting brand of rugby, have access to a very nice, modern stadium and are in a heavily populated area. The potential is definitely there.

Agreed. The current owners have done all the heavy lifting to set them up for the future.

[Scrumhead]

Yeah, don't really fancy Williams. I think we'll probably try to muddle through and if we spend the Rona cash, it will likely be up front. May be wrong though.

Definitely, reliant on van Rensburg at the moment and he may even end up at 13 (where he's played a lot of rugby in Japan/SA) with Hitchcock/Jennings/Matt Williams into 12

On the fun rugby point, that's the irony of the whole situation. The product is better than it's ever been across the league. The market just doesn't be there to sustain it at its current level though.

One of my frustrations is that very few if any players have acknowledged their role in creating this scenario. I absolutely don’t begrudge players trying to get the best possible income, but not when it creates an obviously unsustainable situation where salaries have grown to the point they’re threatening the existence of the professional game.

As the saying goes ‘make hay while the sun shines’, but that comes with the understanding that the sun won’t always be shining.

[Banquo]

Yeah, don't really fancy Williams. I think we'll probably try to muddle through and if we spend the Rona cash, it will likely be up front. May be wrong though.

Definitely, reliant on van Rensburg at the moment and he may even end up at 13 (where he's played a lot of rugby in Japan/SA) with Hitchcock/Jennings/Matt Williams into 12

On the fun rugby point, that's the irony of the whole situation. The product is better than it's ever been across the league. The market just doesn't be there to sustain it at its current level though.

One of my frustrations is that very few if any players have acknowledged their role in creating this scenario. I absolutely don’t begrudge players trying to get the best possible income, but not when it creates an obviously unsustainable situation where salaries have grown to the point they’re threatening the existence of the professional game.

As the saying goes ‘make hay while the sun shines’, but that comes with the understanding that the sun won’t always be shining.

I don't think its the employees role to make sure their employers can afford to pay them. And its not as if they get paid very much, even at top whack compared to top pros in other sports- its a lot of money to most of us, but not in pro sport with between 2 and 15 (absolute tops) years income if you are lucky.

Very tricky- with hindsight you'd say the bar was set too high in 96 by the likes of Newcastle and Richmond.....but would the sport attract the best athletes if it paid even less. The problem is that the pro game in England probably isn't really ever going to wipe its face and produce top quality rugby. Whether the growth of the women's game can help in this is probably doubtful unless they can harness bigger numbers coming through the gates.

[Margin_Walker]

The problem you'll always have on wages, is that you've got a handful of clubs with almost limitless money to pay whatever they want (but for the salary cap). I don't blame players too much for taking what's on offer.

The revenue to salary costs ratio though is clearly bonkers and something needs to change on an organisational level if you want a healthy and competitive league.

[Banquo]

The problem you'll always have on wages, is that you've got a handful of clubs with almost limitless money to pay whatever they want (but for the salary cap). I don't blame players too much for taking what's on offer.

The revenue to salary costs ratio though is clearly bonkers and something needs to change on an organisational level.

You just can't see how to square this circle tbh- if anything, clubs need bigger squads, given the correct attention on head knocks and the obvious need to rotate and rest. Of course less teams mean less prem games, so perhaps ameliorates this, but also less revenue so a vicious circle (to square ).

[Margin_Walker]

The problem you'll always have on wages, is that you've got a handful of clubs with almost limitless money to pay whatever they want (but for the salary cap). I don't blame players too much for taking what's on offer.

The revenue to salary costs ratio though is clearly bonkers and something needs to change on an organisational level.

You just can't see how to square this circle tbh- if anything, clubs need bigger squads, given the correct attention on head knocks and the obvious need to rotate and rest. Of course less teams mean less prem games, so perhaps ameliorates this, but also less revenue so a vicious circle (to square ).

Yeah, it's a real issue. The biggest problem is the relative lack of interest in the club game, compared to the England team. The product is actually fantastic, but there just aren't enough people watching.

A minor frustration is the relationship between the RFU and PRL, who tend to act like rivals rather than two entities that have a mutual interest in the health of the game. If you followed England Rugby on social media (as 1m+ do on Twitter), you'd barely be aware that the club game exists. They never mention it. Even to highlight positive club performances by England players.

[Banquo]

The problem you'll always have on wages, is that you've got a handful of clubs with almost limitless money to pay whatever they want (but for the salary cap). I don't blame players too much for taking what's on offer.

The revenue to salary costs ratio though is clearly bonkers and something needs to change on an organisational level.

You just can't see how to square this circle tbh- if anything, clubs need bigger squads, given the correct attention on head knocks and the obvious need to rotate and rest. Of course less teams mean less prem games, so perhaps ameliorates this, but also less revenue so a vicious circle (to square ).

Yeah, it's a real issue. The biggest problem is the relative lack of interest in the club game, compared to the England team. The product is actually fantastic, but there just aren't enough people watching.

A minor frustration is the relationship between the RFU and PRL, who tend to act like rivals rather than two entities that have a mutual interest in the health of the game. If you followed England Rugby on social media (as 1m+ do on Twitter), you'd barely be aware that the club game exists. They never mention it. Even to highlight positive club performances by England players.

Rugby is a hard sell tbh, no matter what tweaks you make to make it quicker more open etc- you kind of have to be reared on it, as its a complex game ....which is what makes die hard fans love it tbh. Unless its embedded in your culture like NZ, SA and Wales, you will struggle to get affinity--- and even there, not sure how many go to watch non international games.

PRL and RFU, well yes, it would be better if they were as one- though not convinced that would solve the sustainability problem.

Worrying, but not hugely surprising times, sadly.

[Scrumhead]

Yeah, don't really fancy Williams. I think we'll probably try to muddle through and if we spend the Rona cash, it will likely be up front. May be wrong though.

Definitely, reliant on van Rensburg at the moment and he may even end up at 13 (where he's played a lot of rugby in Japan/SA) with Hitchcock/Jennings/Matt Williams into 12

On the fun rugby point, that's the irony of the whole situation. The product is better than it's ever been across the league. The market just doesn't be there to sustain it at its current level though.

One of my frustrations is that very few if any players have acknowledged their role in creating this scenario. I absolutely don’t begrudge players trying to get the best possible income, but not when it creates an obviously unsustainable situation where salaries have grown to the point they’re threatening the existence of the professional game.

As the saying goes ‘make hay while the sun shines’, but that comes with the understanding that the sun won’t always be shining.

I don't think its the employees role to make sure their employers can afford to pay them. And its not as if they get paid very much, even at top whack compared to top pros in other sports- its a lot of money to most of us, but not in pro sport with between 2 and 15 (absolute tops) years income if you are lucky.

Very tricky- with hindsight you'd say the bar was set too high in 96 by the likes of Newcastle and Richmond.....but would the sport attract the best athletes if it paid even less. The problem is that the pro game in England probably isn't really ever going to wipe its face and produce top quality rugby. Whether the growth of the women's game can help in this is probably doubtful unless they can harness bigger numbers coming through the gates.

I agree. I’m just saying that it doesn’t take a genius to realise that there was only one outcome with salaries rising when the income in the game isn’t. By continuing to push on this, the top players have probably curtailed the careers of the average pro.

[Which Tyler]

Very tricky- with hindsight you'd say the bar was set too high in 96 by the likes of Newcastle and Richmond.....but would the sport attract the best athletes if it paid even less. The problem is that the pro game in England probably isn't really ever going to wipe its face and produce top quality rugby. Whether the growth of the women's game can help in this is probably doubtful unless they can harness bigger numbers coming through the gates.

It was, but it was made 10x worse in... erm... 2014-2016 ish when the salary cap essentially doubled in a short space of time.
Before that, the vast majority of clubs were more-or-less breaking even, and there were several Championship clubs with genuine and reasonable ambitions to reach the Prem (MSCs allowing). Since then, virtually no clubs break even, and essentially no Championship clubs can hold on to the dream of Premiership rugby.

ETA: 2013-14 the cap was £4.26M
2014-15 was £4.76M
2015-16 was £5.5M
2016-17 was £6.5M
2017-18 was £7.0M
So more like 1.5 times, rather than doubled

NB: I have not independently fact-check the quoted sources

[Puja]

Very tricky- with hindsight you'd say the bar was set too high in 96 by the likes of Newcastle and Richmond.....but would the sport attract the best athletes if it paid even less. The problem is that the pro game in England probably isn't really ever going to wipe its face and produce top quality rugby. Whether the growth of the women's game can help in this is probably doubtful unless they can harness bigger numbers coming through the gates.

It was, but it was made 10x worse in... erm... 2014-2016 ish when the salary cap essentially doubled in a short space of time.
Before that, the vast majority of clubs were more-or-less breaking even, and there were several Championship clubs with genuine and reasonable ambitions to reach the Prem (MSCs allowing). Since then, virtually no clubs break even, and essentially no Championship clubs can hold on to the dream of Premiership rugby.

ETA: 2013-14 the cap was £4.26M
2014-15 was £4.76M
2015-16 was £5.5M
2016-17 was £6.5M
2017-18 was £7.0M
So more like 1.5 times, rather than doubled

NB: I have not independently fact-check the quoted sources

I believe the marquee player allowances and academy credits were introduced in that period, so it's very likely that it was literally doubled for some clubs when those were taken into account.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

I believe the marquee player allowances and academy credits were introduced in that period, so it's very likely that it was literally doubled for some clubs when those were taken into account.

Source Wiki (amounts assuming full academy credits used):
2008-09 £4.0M
2009-10 £4.0M
2010-11 £4.0M
2011-12 £4.24M
2012-13 £4.5M + 1 Marquee
2013-14 £4.5M
2014-15 £5M
2015-16 £5.5M + 2 Marquees
2016-17 £7.1M
2017-18 £7.6M
2018-19 £7.6M
2019-20 £7.6M


I remember complaining about the rise at the time - which was decided well in advance of the 2016-17 increase.
It's almost like they were banking on a great England performance at the 2015 RWC increasing interest in the game, that they could capitalise on.

[Gloskarlos]

Mark Atkinson out for the rest of the season following injury sustained against Bath. Will be interesting to see if Skivs promotes from within or uses some injury cap to get in some help.

[Timbo]

]

I believe the marquee player allowances and academy credits were introduced in that period, so it's very likely that it was literally doubled for some clubs when those were taken into account.

Source Wiki (amounts assuming full academy credits used):
2008-09 £4.0M
2009-10 £4.0M
2010-11 £4.0M
2011-12 £4.24M
2012-13 £4.5M + 1 Marquee
2013-14 £4.5M
2014-15 £5M
2015-16 £5.5M + 2 Marquees
2016-17 £7.1M
2017-18 £7.6M
2018-19 £7.6M
2019-20 £7.6M


I remember complaining about the rise at the time - which was decided well in advance of the 2016-17 increase.
It's almost like they were banking on a great England performance at the 2015 RWC increasing interest in the game, that they could capitalise on.

The thing is, there was room for an uptick in the salary cap post 2015 as PRL got a significantly upgraded tv deal from BT & a lucrative deal with the RFU. Each club was making £2-3m more a year from central revenues than they were previously. The problem is that it all went on player wages and associated other costs (agents and staff etc). The cap rose too much too soon.

Prior to 2015-ish there were a number of clubs that ran a tight ship in terms of p&l. I’m pretty sure Saints, for example, had never made a material loss in the pro era prior to about 2018.

[Mellsblue]

[FKAS]

Great result for Coventry, a guy that was a regular in the Prem for the first three games of the season and who's still only 24.

[Mikey Brown]

Seibold off to some US team.

The England coach turnover is ridiculous. What’s the chance of getting a decent defence coach in and settled for the RWC? Still feel like a lineout specialist has been missing since Borthwick too.

[Mellsblue]

Just seen the #ourcity…

[Banquo]

Seibold off to some US team.

The England coach turnover is ridiculous. What’s the chance of getting a decent defence coach in and settled for the RWC? Still feel like a lineout specialist has been missing since Borthwick too.

He hadn’t done a good job tho

[Mikey Brown]

Would you have been giving him the boot at this point anyway? Is there an obvious successor? I'm not really sure what you were getting at. Just that the bar is set pretty low?

[Banquo]

Would you have been giving him the boot at this point anyway? Is there an obvious successor? I'm not really sure what you were getting at. Just that the bar is set pretty low?

yes, probably, and I was getting at that our defensive system has looked poor recently, esp in the backs in Oz.