England vs Fiji - Sat 3.15pm

[Mellsblue]

Fiji leapfrogged us in the rankings.

Wait till you see where we end up if Arg and Aus win…

[Banquo]

Where does SB go from here?

Smith must start at 10, IMO. Ford is neat and tidy but he has lost a yard of pace. He kicks too much and he is soft defensively.

I think the best SB can do is make changes in the 33.

He has to think beyond Argentina and dump everyone doubtful or unavailable for that game.

It doesn’t matter who starts at 10 whilst the players refuse to deviate from the plan, which is most likely for fear of being dropped / not getting paid!

Even accepting the TERRITORY PLAN @FKAS, the lack of competence from many previously competent players is a serious concern. But yes, changing Ford for Smith will make the square root of no difference.

[Mr Mwenda]

The Italy coach is leaving after the world cup, right? Might be worth a shout as he has a history of turning round squads that are at rock bottom.

[FKAS]

What are Sinfield's qualifications as a defensive coach.

Just discussing this with a mate…

It's League.

Didn't you know that league experience counts 10 fold? We need to learn from league. More from league. It's absolutely the same sport, we need to take as much from it as possible.

Even better if you're the son of a league legend. Then you're undroppable. Unless you're also behind another son of a league legend in the pecking order and actually know how to play rugby. Then you can suck it up.

He wasn't a defence coach in league. He wanted to be doing coaching but found himself more in a management position at Leeds and hence went to Tigers as a defence coach. Not much experience. A lot is riding on the post world cup appointment of former Boks attack coach and current Books defence coach Felix Jones.

[Oakboy]

Where does SB go from here?

Smith must start at 10, IMO. Ford is neat and tidy but he has lost a yard of pace. He kicks too much and he is soft defensively.

I think the best SB can do is make changes in the 33.

He has to think beyond Argentina and dump everyone doubtful or unavailable for that game.

It doesn’t matter who starts at 10 whilst the players refuse to deviate from the plan, which is most likely for fear of being dropped / not getting paid!

Even accepting the TERRITORY PLAN @FKAS, the lack of competence from many previously competent players is a serious concern. But yes, changing Ford for Smith will make the square root of no difference.

Agreed. I can't get over how far we have plummeted. Just getting rid of the plodders seems a way to go in desperation. If I was in charge I'd need a fantastic RWC performance from the team to even dream of retaining SB. At this stage, I almost hope we go out with a whimper so that a root and branch overhaul is not opposed - even by the faint-hearted who stiil think Farrell is an asset.

[Shiny]

Nothing will change until change is forced in the corridors upstairs in the RFU. On the plus side the wife is getting me a Fiji rugby shirt for Christmas as they are my new second favourite team (after the demise of London Irish).

[switchskier]

It doesn’t matter who starts at 10 whilst the players refuse to deviate from the plan, which is most likely for fear of being dropped / not getting paid!

Even accepting the TERRITORY PLAN @FKAS, the lack of competence from many previously competent players is a serious concern. But yes, changing Ford for Smith will make the square root of no difference.

Agreed. I can't get over how far we have plummeted. Just getting rid of the plodders seems a way to go in desperation. If I was in charge I'd need a fantastic RWC performance from the team to even dream of retaining SB. At this stage, I almost hope we go out with a whimper so that a root and branch overhaul is not opposed - even by the faint-hearted who stiil think Farrell is an asset.

Obviously few people saw this coming and changing a few personnel is unlikely to result in a massive uptick in form.

But snoozefest bordeom has always been a try hard, detail oriented lead by example type. Maybe he needs a motivator sidekick. Ironically someone like Eddie Jones who can give that short term boost (or maybe Jones was just a genius who had them playing above themselves)?

[16th man]

There's some footage of a tackle whichnnat suggest that Marlers world cup is going to be curtailed

[Puja]

Even accepting the TERRITORY PLAN @FKAS, the lack of competence from many previously competent players is a serious concern. But yes, changing Ford for Smith will make the square root of no difference.

Agreed. I can't get over how far we have plummeted. Just getting rid of the plodders seems a way to go in desperation. If I was in charge I'd need a fantastic RWC performance from the team to even dream of retaining SB. At this stage, I almost hope we go out with a whimper so that a root and branch overhaul is not opposed - even by the faint-hearted who stiil think Farrell is an asset.

Obviously few people saw this coming and changing a few personnel is unlikely to result in a massive uptick in form.

But snoozefest bordeom has always been a try hard, detail oriented lead by example type. Maybe he needs a motivator sidekick. Ironically someone like Eddie Jones who can give that short term boost (or maybe Jones was just a genius who had them playing above themselves)?

I was under the impression that motivator was supposed to be Sinfield's schtick in the dynamic duo.

Puja

[jngf]

Great and historic victory for Fiji - It was men against boys out there and the split second Eddie Jones signed a new deal with the RFU under the cover of covid (where attention was elsewhere) we started on the descent to where we now are - a second rate side with no power,dynamism or brains outside of scrums

[fivepointer]

Something is obviously seriously amiss in the way this team are being prepared.

SB is a rookie international head coach and those around him arent exactly seasoned at this level. And boy does it show.

The team look rudderless, flat footed, uncertain and lacking in purpose and energy. There is too much wrong to pinpoint individuals; the rot very clearly is at the top and i'm afraid SB is showing that he is singularly ill equipped to handle a team at this level.

I thought he'd be better. I thought he would at least bring about some improvements in certain areas and produce a team that at least knew what it was about and what it was trying to do. He hasnt. We are an embarrassing disgraceful shambles.

[Mellsblue]

Nothing will change until change is forced in the corridors upstairs in the RFU. On the plus side the wife is getting me a Fiji rugby shirt for Christmas as they are my new second favourite team (after the demise of London Irish).

Where has she found it? I looked for it last weekend and couldn’t find it for sale anywhere.

[morepork]

Great and historic victory for Fiji - It was men against boys out there and the split second Eddie Jones signed a new deal with the RFU under the cover of covid (where attention was elsewhere) we started on the descent to where we now are - a second rate side with no power,dynamism or brains outside of scrums

Total fucking bullshit. What sort of a supporter are you?

[jngf]

Great and historic victory for Fiji - It was men against boys out there and the split second Eddie Jones signed a new deal with the RFU under the cover of covid (where attention was elsewhere) we started on the descent to where we now are - a second rate side with no power,dynamism or brains outside of scrums

Total fucking bullshit. What sort of a supporter are you?

No need for the bad language

[Oakboy]

Something is obviously seriously amiss in the way this team are being prepared.

SB is a rookie international head coach and those around him arent exactly seasoned at this level. And boy does it show.

The team look rudderless, flat footed, uncertain and lacking in purpose and energy. There is too much wrong to pinpoint individuals; the rot very clearly is at the top and i'm afraid SB is showing that he is singularly ill equipped to handle a team at this level.

I thought he'd be better. I thought he would at least bring about some improvements in certain areas and produce a team that at least knew what it was about and what it was trying to do. He hasnt. We are an embarrassing disgraceful shambles.

Agreed. I liked what SB said originally about clarity of purpose. It seemed correct intimation about what was wrong under Jones. Unfortunately, SB has proven incapable of putting his own words into action. It is not a question of whether he should go, just a question of when.

The biggest irony about yesterday's defeat is that Fiji's head coach was appointed after SB.

[p/d]

Oh dear. What a depressing state we have arrived at.
And that’s just on here

The only glimmer of hope for the future is that Wigglesworth is only temporary
Can we not get Evans on a zoom meeting at training sessions?

[Mellsblue]

Something is obviously seriously amiss in the way this team are being prepared.

SB is a rookie international head coach and those around him arent exactly seasoned at this level. And boy does it show.

The team look rudderless, flat footed, uncertain and lacking in purpose and energy. There is too much wrong to pinpoint individuals; the rot very clearly is at the top and i'm afraid SB is showing that he is singularly ill equipped to handle a team at this level.

I thought he'd be better. I thought he would at least bring about some improvements in certain areas and produce a team that at least knew what it was about and what it was trying to do. He hasnt. We are an embarrassing disgraceful shambles.

Agreed. I liked what SB said originally about clarity of purpose. It seemed correct intimation about what was wrong under Jones. Unfortunately, SB has proven incapable of putting his own words into action. It is not a question of whether he should go, just a question of when.

The biggest irony about yesterday's defeat is that Fiji's head coach was appointed after SB.

Sack the head coach again! I think he needs time to get his coaching team together - Wigglesworth is approx third choice, the scrum coach is at least second choice and the legend that is Aled Walters will only just be finding his feet. All his coaches are very inexperienced.
If we do sack him we go back to the question posed when you wanted Jones gone: who do you appoint in his place?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Well yes. Sacking then gets us back to the start. But doesn’t address the issues at the RFU nor undo where the team are. Post RWC there is a chance to rebuild and freshen the squad more with players who haven’t been automated to the game plan. But it is a very inexperienced coaching setup. We’ll find out I guess if they’ve got it in them.

In terms of the RWC it’s on the players to do something. To lead the revolution. But I’m not seeing an big leaders who have it in them to actually lead that revolution. There’s no Dallaglio, Dawson, Johnson etc.

[Shiny]

Nothing will change until change is forced in the corridors upstairs in the RFU. On the plus side the wife is getting me a Fiji rugby shirt for Christmas as they are my new second favourite team (after the demise of London Irish).

Where has she found it? I looked for it last weekend and couldn’t find it for sale anywhere.

Luckily I’m a gentleman of a more portly persuasion so they had my size. Think 1980’s prop rather than 2023 winger.

https://www.rugbystuff.com/collections/ ... 4659737840

[p/d]

I get misty eyed now looking back to when lack of discipline was our principal concern.

[Oakboy]

Something is obviously seriously amiss in the way this team are being prepared.

SB is a rookie international head coach and those around him arent exactly seasoned at this level. And boy does it show.

The team look rudderless, flat footed, uncertain and lacking in purpose and energy. There is too much wrong to pinpoint individuals; the rot very clearly is at the top and i'm afraid SB is showing that he is singularly ill equipped to handle a team at this level.

I thought he'd be better. I thought he would at least bring about some improvements in certain areas and produce a team that at least knew what it was about and what it was trying to do. He hasnt. We are an embarrassing disgraceful shambles.

Agreed. I liked what SB said originally about clarity of purpose. It seemed correct intimation about what was wrong under Jones. Unfortunately, SB has proven incapable of putting his own words into action. It is not a question of whether he should go, just a question of when.

The biggest irony about yesterday's defeat is that Fiji's head coach was appointed after SB.

Sack the head coach again! I think he needs time to get his coaching team together - Wigglesworth is approx third choice, the scrum coach is at least second choice and the legend that is Aled Walters will only just be finding his feet. All his coaches are very inexperienced.
If we do sack him we go back to the question posed when you wanted Jones gone: who do you appoint in his place?

You may be right.

Unfortunately, I think SB has indicated lack of judgement and an inability to inspire the group (coaches plus players). The former failing I base on selection to an extent, especially with getting it wrong over Dombrandt/Billy V. We can have our pet theories on player A v player B but a head coach has all the information, advice and personal contact such that judgment calls should be right more often than not.

As for inspiring the group, he has failed in so fundamental an issue as following his own message on clarity. Falling back on the familiar i.e. coaching assistance from Leicester etc. maybe a sign of weakness. Either way, it has failed.

Yes, we would again be asking who? But, I think it is time for the main board of the RFU to do a root and branch overhaul with, say, a 6 month review of everything involved. A decision immediately after the RWC to give SB that temporary reprieve or to appoint another temporary guy needs more in-depth knowledge than can possibly be available to us.

What is essential, though, IMO, is to have a new system in place three and a half years ahead of the next RWC. The very worst scenario is letting SB blunder on, get nowhere for a couple of 6Ns and then replace him. A 6 month temporary stint while a review takes place, gives him a chance but signs of fundamental improvement would be essential to even leave his name on the table. I've said before over several eras that if I was carrying out appointment interviews, I'd require full long-term plans as detailed submissions from candidates. I'd be happy for SB to be part of that process if he had achieved improvement in the meantime.

I know we are not blessed with stacks of gifted players but I think if Sean Edwards was appointed tomorrow, we'd be a damned sight harder to beat within a couple of training sessions. Pie in the sky, of course, but it highlights how bad preparation/togetherness seems to be at present.

[Stom]

I get misty eyed now looking back to when lack of discipline was our principal concern.

Indeed, it seems like we have a curious mix of too much discipline (to the gameplan) and too little discipline (to the ref's interpretations of the laws). Which both suggest a singular inability to think for themselves.

[Mellsblue]

Agreed. I liked what SB said originally about clarity of purpose. It seemed correct intimation about what was wrong under Jones. Unfortunately, SB has proven incapable of putting his own words into action. It is not a question of whether he should go, just a question of when.

The biggest irony about yesterday's defeat is that Fiji's head coach was appointed after SB.

Sack the head coach again! I think he needs time to get his coaching team together - Wigglesworth is approx third choice, the scrum coach is at least second choice and the legend that is Aled Walters will only just be finding his feet. All his coaches are very inexperienced.
If we do sack him we go back to the question posed when you wanted Jones gone: who do you appoint in his place?

You may be right.

Unfortunately, I think SB has indicated lack of judgement and an inability to inspire the group (coaches plus players). The former failing I base on selection to an extent, especially with getting it wrong over Dombrandt/Billy V. We can have our pet theories on player A v player B but a head coach has all the information, advice and personal contact such that judgment calls should be right more often than not.

As for inspiring the group, he has failed in so fundamental an issue as following his own message on clarity. Falling back on the familiar i.e. coaching assistance from Leicester etc. maybe a sign of weakness. Either way, it has failed.

Yes, we would again be asking who? But, I think it is time for the main board of the RFU to do a root and branch overhaul with, say, a 6 month review of everything involved. A decision immediately after the RWC to give SB that temporary reprieve or to appoint another temporary guy needs more in-depth knowledge than can possibly be available to us.

What is essential, though, IMO, is to have a new system in place three and a half years ahead of the next RWC. The very worst scenario is letting SB blunder on, get nowhere for a couple of 6Ns and then replace him. A 6 month temporary stint while a review takes place, gives him a chance but signs of fundamental improvement would be essential to even leave his name on the table. I've said before over several eras that if I was carrying out appointment interviews, I'd require full long-term plans as detailed submissions from candidates. I'd be happy for SB to be part of that process if he had achieved improvement in the meantime.

I know we are not blessed with stacks of gifted players but I think if Sean Edwards was appointed tomorrow, we'd be a damned sight harder to beat within a couple of training sessions. Pie in the sky, of course, but it highlights how bad preparation/togetherness seems to be at present.

So, you’re qualified enough to definitively state the Sliding Backwards needs to go but not qualified enough to state what the replacement looks like…

[Oakboy]

So, you’re qualified enough to definitively state the Sliding Backwards needs to go but not qualified enough to state what the replacement looks like…

Results don't lie. Neither does a half-empty Twickenham.

[Oakboy]

Per Dawson on BBC website:

"This is the most prepared underperforming England side there has ever been going into a World Cup.

We can't neglect the fact there are plenty of resources, lots of coaches and loads of training time. I don't believe there can be an excuse.

It does not take eight months to coach a side to deliver that kind of performance against Fiji. It was like it was Steve Borthwick's first game in charge and the players weren't sure how to play together.

They are significantly underperforming for how long they have been together."