RugbyRebels

Posted: **Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:10 pm**

Big D wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:55 pm
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:30 pm It's a shame for Healy, and I don't like the risk of having to play a non-specialist fly half, but yeah it feels like a waste of a spot.

Do we actually know how to effectively use a 6:2 though? It's always seemed bit strange the last few times we've done it. I would assume 6/20 Christie/Ritchie 8/21 Dempsey/Fagerson with Darge doing 80, as we don't really have 4 locks worthy/fit for a place in the 23.
Yeah we don't have the fit lock depth to go 6/2.

I also wouldn't be wanting Steyn covering 13 from the 23 shirt. I know he's a good defender at club level but in the last 6N* and this one he has missed a lot of tackles and was caught in two minds at times from Wales about when to crash in or hold width. 13 is a key defensive position and I'd have concerns if Jones went down early.

*made 26 and missed 16 in 6N over the last two editions. Only game he's not missed a few was a 7/0 game v Italy.

7/4 v England
3/3 v Wales
2/2 v France
2/2 v Ireland
7/0 v Italy
4/5 v Wales.
Total = 26/16 (62%)

Duhan and Jones were criticised and Duhan still does get criticism over their defence but Steyn seems to get a free pass and although I have no issues with him being selected on the wing, I wouldnt want him defending at 13 in this system.

Yeah, Steyn's defence is a funny one. He just doesn't seem like a guy who misses lots of tackles, he's our solid reliable winger. I suspect it's because there haven't been many (any) which have (a) been really bad/obvious and (b) have led to tries.

I agree with most on here about the 6-2. We don't have enough powerful forwards to make it massively worthwhile. There'll be some massively physical games where it pays off because of injuries, but there'll be others where it backfires (especially as none of our forwards are obvious contenders to move into the backs). I suppose I'm sceptical of 6-2 but okay if they have stats showing it is worth it for certain games.

It's quite nice having a coaching staff that I broadly believe in. I know there is a big divide (at least online) and, without wanting to sound patronising, I feel sorry for those who think Townsend is a clown. I had years of seeing team sheets and pulling my hair out. During Townsend's era (with the exception of the 2019 World Cup) I have generally seen them and thought 'might not be exactly what I would do but fair enough'.

Posted: **Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:42 am**

Hard to know how much this is a great achievement by our players or an indication that we’re having to make way too many tackles.

Still impressive percentages though.

Posted: **Wed Feb 14, 2024 9:53 am**

I am becoming less bothered about high tackle counts and more interested in the dominant tackle stats. Most forwards should be hitting 90% in tackles.

There is no doubt our forwards work hard in defence, but the tackles tend to be less than dominant.

Posted: **Wed Feb 14, 2024 10:23 am**

Yeah I wasn't posting it because I'm particularly excited about it just saw it pop up and it's odd we have 5/6 forwards in there. I don't think we play with a huge amount less possession than other teams necessarily, but you're right about dominant tackles in addition to the speed of the ruck the opposition are allowed that means we can end up on the back foot for significant periods of games.

I was initially very pleased with Tandy and his defensive system, but you wonder how much the willingness to sit back and absorb pressure detracts from what we can offer elsewhere on the pitch.

Posted: **Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:45 pm**

Dominant tackles are about the situation and the player. Tandy's defensive system sometimes has us very narrow and may explain somewhat Steyn's stats - left scrambling to make a tackle. It's a trade off for shutting down attacks earlier which has been tbf pretty successful comply to previously.
But some players tend to make dominant tackles more than others. Always depends on line speed and usually try t get man and ball. Both Fagersons are pretty good, while eg Jonny Gray once went about a year making it seemed hundreds of tackles never missing one, but not a dominant one among them.Always soak tackles.
We also go more these days to try and hold the player up, get a turnover scrum. Richie Gray and others good there. These won't count as dominant tackles but always slow the opposition ball even if maul not called.

Posted: **Wed Feb 14, 2024 6:21 pm**

septic 9 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:45 pm Dominant tackles are about the situation and the player. Tandy's defensive system sometimes has us very narrow and may explain somewhat Steyn's stats - left scrambling to make a tackle. It's a trade off for shutting down attacks earlier which has been tbf pretty successful comply to previously.
But some players tend to make dominant tackles more than others. Always depends on line speed and usually try t get man and ball. Both Fagersons are pretty good, while eg Jonny Gray once went about a year making it seemed hundreds of tackles never missing one, but not a dominant one among them.Always soak tackles.
We also go more these days to try and hold the player up, get a turnover scrum. Richie Gray and others good there. These won't count as dominant tackles but always slow the opposition ball even if maul not called.

Yes, I'm not reliant on it but it is a useful indicator . In the second half v Wales the defence went passive, stopped getting off the line and Wales made the most of it. Yes we had 14 men but that doesn't mean the defence had to stop being aggressive.

It's also one of the reasons Turner is pretty much undroppable at this point. He hits harder than most in the team.

Posted: **Wed Feb 14, 2024 7:31 pm**

Big D wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 6:21 pm
septic 9 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 3:45 pm Dominant tackles are about the situation and the player. Tandy's defensive system sometimes has us very narrow and may explain somewhat Steyn's stats - left scrambling to make a tackle. It's a trade off for shutting down attacks earlier which has been tbf pretty successful comply to previously.
But some players tend to make dominant tackles more than others. Always depends on line speed and usually try t get man and ball. Both Fagersons are pretty good, while eg Jonny Gray once went about a year making it seemed hundreds of tackles never missing one, but not a dominant one among them.Always soak tackles.
We also go more these days to try and hold the player up, get a turnover scrum. Richie Gray and others good there. These won't count as dominant tackles but always slow the opposition ball even if maul not called.
Yes, I'm not reliant on it but it is a useful indicator . In the second half v Wales the defence went passive, stopped getting off the line and Wales made the most of it. Yes we had 14 men but that doesn't mean the defence had to stop being aggressive.

It's also one of the reasons Turner is pretty much undroppable at this point. He hits harder than most in the team.

I felt that every time the defence was aggressive, it was an offside pen. And every tome we competed at the breakdown, again a pen. So mostly we did not compete at the breakdown, hence Wales got quick ball against man short sort of drifting defence, not what they had trained for. It was a perfect storm of man short, players stunned reaction to repeated shit reffing. we should have done better, much better but I can understand how the players must have felt.Ie confused as to what they could actually do

Posted: **Fri Feb 16, 2024 6:13 pm**

Kinghorn not playing for Toulouse this weekend. I’m not sure whether to be happy (no chance of aggravating his injury and he might be available for next weekend) or unhappy (maybe he’s not fit yet).

Posted: **Mon Feb 19, 2024 1:13 pm**

Kinghorn back in contention with Bradbury, Nel, Watson and Craig drafted in.

Posted: **Mon Feb 19, 2024 2:00 pm**

Keen to see if Bradbury can add a bit of go-forward.

Can see him on the bench with Christie/ Dempsey/ Darge starting. If Kinghorn starts, Healey may get left out, freeing up place for an extra forward in a game which is traditionally a bit of an arm-wrestle. Although we’ve won a few recently, it’s usually only been within a score. Come on, boys…

Posted: **Mon Feb 19, 2024 2:03 pm**

I guess if we're considering a 6:2 then Bradbury or Watson might have a shot, but it's hard to see him displacing Fagerson.

Posted: **Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:55 pm**

Scotland team to face England at Scottish Gas Murrayfield in the Guinness Men’s Six Nations on Saturday 24 February, kick-off 4.45pm – live on BBC One (caps in brackets):

15. Blair Kinghorn – Toulouse (50)
14. Kyle Steyn – Glasgow Warriors (16)
13. Huw Jones – Glasgow Warriors (45)
12. Sione Tuipulotu – Vice-Captain – Glasgow Warriors (24)
11. Duhan van der Merwe – Edinburgh Rugby (36)

10. Finn Russell – Co-Captain – Bath Rugby (77)
9. Ben White – Toulon (20)

1. Pierre Schoeman – Edinburgh Rugby (28)
2. George Turner – Glasgow Warriors (42)
3. Zander Fagerson – Glasgow Warriors (64)
4. Grant Gilchrist – Edinburgh Rugby (69)
5. Scott Cummings – Glasgow Warriors (35)
6. Jamie Ritchie – Edinburgh Rugby (47)
7. Rory Darge – Co-Captain – Glasgow Warriors (16)
8. Jack Dempsey – Glasgow Warriors (17)

Replacements

16. Ewan Ashman – Edinburgh Rugby (14)
17. Alec Hepburn – Exeter Chiefs (2)
18. Elliot Millar-Mills – Northampton Saints (1)
19. Sam Skinner – Edinburgh Rugby (32)
20. Andy Christie – Saracens (5)
21. George Horne – Glasgow Warriors (27)
22. Ben Healy – Edinburgh Rugby (4)
23. Cameron Redpath – Bath Rugby (11)

Posted: **Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:07 pm**

I think Healy is a waste of space on the bench. He’d only play in an emergency (injury to Russell), in which you might as well move Kinghorn to 10 (and pray). Either go 6:2 or put Rowe on the bench, covering wing and full back.

Posted: **Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:57 pm**

sharvey44 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 1:55 pm Scotland team to face England at Scottish Gas Murrayfield in the Guinness Men’s Six Nations on Saturday 24 February, kick-off 4.45pm – live on BBC One (caps in brackets):

15. Blair Kinghorn – Toulouse (50)
14. Kyle Steyn – Glasgow Warriors (16)
13. Huw Jones – Glasgow Warriors (45)
12. Sione Tuipulotu – Vice-Captain – Glasgow Warriors (24)
11. Duhan van der Merwe – Edinburgh Rugby (36)

10. Finn Russell – Co-Captain – Bath Rugby (77)
9. Ben White – Toulon (20)

1. Pierre Schoeman – Edinburgh Rugby (28)
2. George Turner – Glasgow Warriors (42)
3. Zander Fagerson – Glasgow Warriors (64)
4. Grant Gilchrist – Edinburgh Rugby (69)
5. Scott Cummings – Glasgow Warriors (35)
6. Jamie Ritchie – Edinburgh Rugby (47)
7. Rory Darge – Co-Captain – Glasgow Warriors (16)
8. Jack Dempsey – Glasgow Warriors (17)

Replacements

16. Ewan Ashman – Edinburgh Rugby (14)
17. Alec Hepburn – Exeter Chiefs (2)
18. Elliot Millar-Mills – Northampton Saints (1)
19. Sam Skinner – Edinburgh Rugby (32)
20. Andy Christie – Saracens (5)
21. George Horne – Glasgow Warriors (27)
22. Ben Healy – Edinburgh Rugby (4)
23. Cameron Redpath – Bath Rugby (11)

Rowe very unlucky to lose the starting wing slot IMO.

We don't have the bodies for 6/2 so don't mind the bench split.

Posted: **Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:13 pm**

Big D wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:57 pm
Rowe very unlucky to lose the starting wing slot IMO.

We don't have the bodies for 6/2 so don't mind the bench split.

I think Steyn is the right call but agree Rowe incredibly unfortunate to miss out altogether. Should be benching in preference to Healey IMHO
Not that I'm advocating it (I'm not) but while we maybe don't have the bodies for a 6/2 with 2 locks a la Glasgow, unless we pick Young which I would not exactly be keen on. We could however select 2 back rows, one of who could be Bradbury since he has filled in at lock for Edinburgh a good few times and I doubt he has shed Kgs in the EP. The trouble with both is concern over focus and work rate

Posted: **Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:13 pm**

England have gone for Furbank instead of Steward. Lawrence for Dingwall.

Posted: **Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:03 pm**

septic 9 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:13 pm
Big D wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:57 pm
Rowe very unlucky to lose the starting wing slot IMO.

We don't have the bodies for 6/2 so don't mind the bench split.

I think Steyn is the right call but agree Rowe incredibly unfortunate to miss out altogether. Should be benching in preference to Healey IMHO
Not that I'm advocating it (I'm not) but while we maybe don't have the bodies for a 6/2 with 2 locks a la Glasgow, unless we pick Young which I would not exactly be keen on. We could however select 2 back rows, one of who could be Bradbury since he has filled in at lock for Edinburgh a good few times and I doubt he has shed Kgs in the EP. The trouble with both is concern over focus and work rate

Workrate less of an issue if you're asking them to do an intense 20 minutes and if you have another lock on the bench already then you need to worry less about injury cover.

Also agree however that Healy is the pick that doesn't make sense and should have been Rowe or Patterson. Wonder if it will change when Graham is fit and Steyn needs a bench slot.

Posted: **Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:53 pm**

Jocky wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:13 pm England have gone for Furbank instead of Steward. Lawrence for Dingwall.

Furbank and Lawrence scare me more than Steward and Dingwall, though the floor may also be a bit lower. Will be interesting to see if they're willing to utilize the second playmaker and involve their wings a bit more (which could hurt with Steyn s turnstile defence on the wing

).

England have a big bench advantage. If we get on top early we have to capitalise and not let it be close at the end where a big scrum might affect the outcome.

Posted: **Thu Feb 22, 2024 5:07 pm**

I was expecting a bit of chat about Ritchie's selection? From what I've seen he's not at his best, is Fagerson injured? Christie must be wondering what has to happen for him to get a start?

Posted: **Thu Feb 22, 2024 5:09 pm**

I’m guessing Atonio really did a number on Fagerson. I’m not sure if anything has been said about him being injured or not.

Christie starting with Ritchie on the bench does seem like it would have been the form call.

Posted: **Thu Feb 22, 2024 7:22 pm**

I had assumed that Fagerson was fit but okay eith Rtichie (would have been okay with Christie too).

Personally would have preferred Rowe on the wing ahead of Steyn but okay with that too.

Only thing I have a clear view ok is that Healy's a bit of a waste on the bench. Rowe or Bradbury (or even Watson) should be there for me too.

Posted: **Thu Feb 22, 2024 7:37 pm**

switchskier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:53 pm
Jocky wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:13 pm England have gone for Furbank instead of Steward. Lawrence for Dingwall.
Furbank and Lawrence scare me more than Steward and Dingwall, though the floor may also be a bit lower. Will be interesting to see if they're willing to utilize the second playmaker and involve their wings a bit more (which could hurt with Steyn s turnstile defence on the wing ).

England have a big bench advantage. If we get on top early we have to capitalise and not let it be close at the end where a big scrum might affect the outcome.

Was thinking the very same. Would have preferred them to start Steward and try not put in high kicks too near him. Can't really argue with our selection apart from Rowe missing out. I'm not too worried about the Ritchie selection. Agree with others on the Healy selection and maybe an extra forward on the bench should have been the way to go.

Posted: **Thu Feb 22, 2024 10:29 pm**

Have calmed down a wee bit.

I think Ritchie’s in there for the line-out amongst other things, (particularly if Itoje plays well), although like the horses, I think there is always an argument for form - Christie. Mind, I am shite at the horses.

For all the chat that we should win, England’s bench is pretty good and in our last 2 matches we have finished like an old boy in Amsterdam. Not saying we have to be ahead after 60, but I’ll be more comfortable if we were. Obvs ‘nawrat.

Anyway, for various reasons I am looking forward to going to this. Looking forward to seeing friends. Enjoy. ‘Mon ra Scots!

Posted: **Fri Feb 23, 2024 11:52 am**

switchskier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:03 pm Workrate less of an issue if you're asking them to do an intense 20 minutes and if you have another lock on the bench already then you need to worry less about injury cover.

clearly a lower workrate is more likely to be damaging the longer on the park, but lack of it, or lack of focus, only takes a second to lose a score and kill you. Hence Toonie rightly likes players, especially back rows, with a consistently huge work rate. Players who are not given to losing focus

Posted: **Sat Feb 24, 2024 5:04 pm**

15 minutes of utter shite.

No composure; White all over the place, Kinghorn with butter fingers,defence shit, standing watching rucks father than hitting them.

RugbyRebels

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