RugbyRebels

Lizard wrote:I’m no expert, and I’m not even UKish, but all this canvassing of options for Brexit by Parliament, and a cross-party leadership summit, aimed at finding bipartisan support for a workable, broadly acceptable way to undergo this major, practically irreversible constitutional change, shouldn’t this have been done as soon as possible after the referendum, if not before?

Only getting on to it now seems a bit like an unseemly, last-minute Charlie Foxtrot.

You're not kidding. One might also surmise that it should've been done before even lighting the Article 50 fuse or having an election. But, then at that point, May and the Conservatives were still at "Crush the Saboteurs!" levels of confidence in their own rectitude, and so didn't need to talk to or compromise with anyone.

Which Tyler wrote:Just got in; surely I've got this wrong. Please tell me I've got this wrong.

So... She's asking the EU for an extension, but not giving them any reason to.
She's inviting Corbyn to talk about compromise, but A] not actually telling him this, and B] compromise JUST include her existing working agreement, and all of her red lines, and no new negotiating.

WTF?

The best kind of May compromise is where everyone just agrees that they were wrong to disagree with her. The second best is just agreeing that we'll discuss that part at some point later.

Puja

Lizard wrote:I’m no expert, and I’m not even UKish, but all this canvassing of options for Brexit by Parliament, and a cross-party leadership summit, aimed at finding bipartisan support for a workable, broadly acceptable way to undergo this major, practically irreversible constitutional change, shouldn’t this have been done as soon as possible after the referendum, if not before?

Only getting on to it now seems a bit like an unseemly, last-minute Charlie Foxtrot.

Easy with hindsight, but only the DUP, Tories and Labour are actually in favour of Brexit, and Labour only nominally (as in Corbyn and McDonnell) in terms of MP support. Given that Tory and Labour couldn't be much further apart politically, May and Corbyn obviously hate each other, and Labours policy is a- to force a GE, b- to force a referendum, and c- a Brexit policy rejected three times now and in that order, its quite difficult to see how that could have played out. Libdems want a 2nd referendum, though some cracks in their huge representation of 11, SNP implacably opposed, ditto PC and Greens; Independents (Change UK) somewhere between referendum and remain.

Plus May isn't built for compromise, and the right wing would have had her out sharpish for even talking to Labour- as you can see from today's reaction.

Looks like we are headed for WA w Customs Union in the Political Declaration; I think that's daft, but hey.

Lizard wrote:I’m no expert, and I’m not even UKish, but all this canvassing of options for Brexit by Parliament, and a cross-party leadership summit, aimed at finding bipartisan support for a workable, broadly acceptable way to undergo this major, practically irreversible constitutional change, shouldn’t this have been done as soon as possible after the referendum, if not before?

Only getting on to it now seems a bit like an unseemly, last-minute Charlie Foxtrot.

Of course, it is what should have happened. However, this is the UK, and politics is firmly rooted in the two-tribe, playground style. A Tory minister would rather be found in a compromising situation in a bush on Hampstead Heath than be found compromising with Labour.

If there's one positive to come out of this debacle, it is that people are starting to ask questions about our political system. I remain pessimistic that anything will ever change, though.

Stones of granite wrote:

Lizard wrote:I’m no expert, and I’m not even UKish, but all this canvassing of options for Brexit by Parliament, and a cross-party leadership summit, aimed at finding bipartisan support for a workable, broadly acceptable way to undergo this major, practically irreversible constitutional change, shouldn’t this have been done as soon as possible after the referendum, if not before?

Only getting on to it now seems a bit like an unseemly, last-minute Charlie Foxtrot.

Of course, it is what should have happened. However, this is the UK, and politics is firmly rooted in the two-tribe, playground style. A Tory minister would rather be found in a compromising situation in a bush on Hampstead Heath than be found compromising with Labour.

If there's one positive to come out of this debacle, it is that people are starting to ask questions about our political system. I remain pessimistic that anything will ever change, though.

Think it might have been possible pre-May and Corbyn tbh maybe back as far as John Major.

My big question about our political system is why are we paying parliament wages and expenses on such a useless shower of crap; very few seem to understand that their job is as part of the legislative system and they need to know and understand detail as well as policy and principle, and representing the best interests of their constituents.

(of course there is the quite decent argument that if we paid them more, we'd get a better quality of MP. Moot at present)

Slash EU regulations on wildlife protection and drug safety trials after Brexit, Michael Gove urges

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 49041.html

Am I reading that scrolling news right? Another conservative MP (Nigel Adams) has resigned (this time because May is TOO willing to compromise)?

Does that bring Conservatives down to 311? And therefore Con+DUP can't bring a majority in the house of commons, even without Sinn Fein taking their seats?

ETA: No sorry, I think it's now 312+10, with 8 empty seats (7 Sinn Fein + 1 vacant*), so they can combine for a majority of 1 - assuming the latest update I looked at included Nick Boles' switch

* Newport West, Labour since 1987, by-election tomorrow, voted Leave in 2016

Which Tyler wrote:Am I reading that scrolling news right? Another conservative MP (Nigel Adams) has resigned (this time because May is TOO willing to compromise)?

Does that bring Conservatives down to 311? And therefore Con+DUP can't bring a majority in the house of commons, even without Sinn Fein taking their seats?

ETA: No sorry, I think it's now 312+10, with 8 empty seats (7 Sinn Fein + 1 vacant), so they can combine for a majority of 1

Nigel Adams has resigned you are right

Think however, Govt will fall if she does a deal with Corbyn I reckon- DUP will pull support, and the ERG are so mad they wouldn't care about an election.

TIG/Change folks won't have long in Parliament imo

Banquo wrote: Nigel Evans probably?

Govt will fall if she does a deal with Corbyn I reckon- DUP will pull support, and the ERG are so mad they wouldn't care about an election.

TIG/Change folks won't have long in Parliament imo

Nope, Adams, complete with more divisive, arrogant comments about the enemy:

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote: Nigel Evans probably?

Govt will fall if she does a deal with Corbyn I reckon- DUP will pull support, and the ERG are so mad they wouldn't care about an election.

TIG/Change folks won't have long in Parliament imo

Nope, Adams, complete with more divisive, arrogant comments about the enemy:

correct, edited - though not sure he has resigned from tory party.

Both enemies in that view

Banquo wrote: Nigel Adams has resigned you are right

Think however, Govt will fall if she does a deal with Corbyn I reckon- DUP will pull support, and the ERG are so mad they wouldn't care about an election.

TIG/Change folks won't have long in Parliament imo

We're editting over each other.
He's resigning the government whip, which I think is the same as the Tory whip, but it might be technically different.

May's not interested in doing a deal with Corbyn, just trying to set him up as being responsible for her own failures. Corbyn will demand things she's unwilling to consider, and possibly even unwilling to hear. It's a ploy to kick the can down the road, and to damage the opposition, and give her supporters a scale goat they're desperate to blame for everything anyway.

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote: Nigel Adams has resigned you are right

Think however, Govt will fall if she does a deal with Corbyn I reckon- DUP will pull support, and the ERG are so mad they wouldn't care about an election.

TIG/Change folks won't have long in Parliament imo

We're editting over each other.
He's resigning the government whip, which I think is the same as the Tory whip, but it might be technically different.

May's not interested in doing a deal with Corbyn, just trying to set him up as being responsible for her own failures. Corbyn will demand things she's unwilling to consider, and possibly even unwilling to hear. It's a ploy to kick the can down the road, and to damage the opposition, and give her supporters a scale goat they're desperate to blame for everything anyway.

I love the idea of a scale goat

Its ambiguous on Adams, I think he is a government whip as well as a Minister, and that's what I think he has resigned from.

Yes- suspect May will saying, well he wouldn't tell his MPs to vote for WA + Something soft-brexit, so I have no choice but to bring my deal back, and if you don't vote for that, no deal it is...and that's his fault...

Banquo wrote: I love the idea of a scale goat

Goats get psoriasis too you know!

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote: I love the idea of a scale goat

Goats get psoriasis too you know!

I was thinking of a small one

Though we could have a series of indicative goats...

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote: I love the idea of a scale goat

Goats get psoriasis too you know!

I was thinking of a small one

Though we could have a series of indicative goats...

IDS on Corbyn "A harsh Marxist whose only goal in life is to do ireperable harm to this country" "The worst thing about this is that she has legitimised him as a politician"

Quotes may be slightly inaccurate, I was offline when that interview started broadcasting.


I don't remember this much (open) hostility and disrespect within the commons ever; and it's all one-sided. It's almost like they've seen the muder of Jo Cox, and a plausible plot to assassinate Rosie Cooper and decided to up the hate speech against Labour!

Still hard to call whether it's the Labour party or the Tories who're going to split over this, and whether one will trigger the other

Hard to see how they don't unless huge numbers put personal ambition above their actual beliefs. Corbyn deciding any agreement with May wouldn't need a second referendum is just more outstanding work on his part, but there's no way his view on European imperialism and the role of Nato is shared outside the clinically insane

Digby wrote:Still hard to call whether it's the Labour party or the Tories who're going to split over this, and whether one will trigger the other

Both, but ultimately, the left are always far more likely to self-destruct

Which Tyler wrote:

Digby wrote:Still hard to call whether it's the Labour party or the Tories who're going to split over this, and whether one will trigger the other

Both, but ultimately, the left are always far more likely to self-destruct

Meh, the right have already wiped more money of the national economy than we pay into the EU, frankly they've wiped off more than their bus falsely claimed we pay into the EU and they're only just getting started. And we must be up to circa £5 billion in government, civil service and consultancy spend on brexit so far (though if you want a laugh write your MP and see what answer they fabricate)

I just cannot see how the bigger part of the Tory party, certainly the parliamentary party if not the increasingly UKIP member base, sticks with the right claiming it's somehow for the greater good

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote: Goats get psoriasis too you know!

I was thinking of a small one

Though we could have a series of indicative goats...

IDS on Corbyn "A harsh Marxist whose only goal in life is to do ireperable harm to this country" "The worst thing about this is that she has legitimised him as a politician"

Quotes may be slightly inaccurate, I was offline when that interview started broadcasting.


I don't remember this much (open) hostility and disrespect within the commons ever; and it's all one-sided. It's almost like they've seen the muder of Jo Cox, and a plausible plot to assassinate Rosie Cooper and decided to up the hate speech against Labour!

One sided?!?!
Good job McDonnell has never said that McVey should be lynched whilst calling for ‘direct action’ or that, only this week, Beckett implies that May is mentally ill by saying that shewneeded a consultation with a doctor.
What IDS said is standard fare from all sides. You only have to watch a few PMQ’s, debates in the chamber or committee hearings to know that.
Not that I agree with it, but politics is a bruising business.
Away from the Commons, Corbyn’s accolites are pretty efficient at following McDonnell’s advice on direct action. Be it bricks through constituency office windows, intimidating letters under parliamentary office doors or at elections to Labour Party committees.

Written in anger, not allowed to delete. Not worth it.

We need to get the petition shared more. It can still have an effect. We just need 18 million signatures. 1/3rd of the way there.

How? Let's do it!

The Russians?

another minister has quit. No doubt protecting his seat as it were. Not sure how he reconciles the sentences in his statement.



Chris Heaton-Harris has been in charge of preparations for a no-deal exit.

In his resignation letter, he says these are "well-advanced". However, he says the PM's desire not to leave the UK without a deal has made "his job irrelevant".

He said the UK should have left the EU on 29 March and he cannot support any further delay to Brexit.

Banquo wrote:another minister has quit. No doubt protecting his seat as it were. Not sure how he reconciles the sentences in his statement.



Chris Heaton-Harris has been in charge of preparations for a no-deal exit.

In his resignation letter, he says these are "well-advanced". However, he says the PM's desire not to leave the UK without a deal has made "his job irrelevant".

He said the UK should have left the EU on 29 March and he cannot support any further delay to Brexit.

You are ready, then!

Just jump.

Banquo wrote:another minister has quit. No doubt protecting his seat as it were. Not sure how he reconciles the sentences in his statement.

So her majority is down to -1, -2 if a conservative doesn't win tomorrow's by-election

Mass debating ongoing over a bill (Cooper-Letwin-Benn, the back-bench-bunch) that would require the PM to seek an extension to Article 50, and rule out No Deal Brexit.
On both counts, this is a bit of goal-post relocation.
Will May ever hit the back of the net ?

Someone called Chris reported:
'The House of Commons printer has broken down so they can't print the Cooper Bill. So now MPs are not sure what they are now debating..'
Sure they can just make it up as they go along.