All Blacks vs Pumas in Sucktown: poll included

[Lizard]

Apparently the best half back in the world and the best hooker in the world were holding us back. Now that the best lock and the best first 5/8 are also off, it will be murder

[zer0]

The Accountant doing the best impersonation of Cullen's trolling of Gregan that I've ever seen.

[Lizard]

Is this what they call a game of 2 halves?

[Lizard]

Coles? Fair play I was wrong about him. Along with Nonu that makes twice.

[Lizard]

Great volleyball skills.

[rowan]

Very disappointing. Argentina have been given every chance to progress in the game, with their involvement in this competition as well as Super Rugby now. Yes, they beat South Africa - again, yes they made the semis at the World Cup - again, but when it comes to the ultimate challenge, facing the All Blacks in New Zealand, they're still found sorely wanting.

[Len]

They'll whinge about that Moody high tackle after this, you watch. But Argentina should have had a couple of cards for nonsense penalties on their tryline too.

[Len]

They'll (the media) whinge about that Moody high tackle after this, you watch. But Argentina should have had a couple of cards for nonsense penalties on their tryline too.

[rowan]

" Traditionally you would expect the Argies to fade at the 60-65 mark, but times they are a-changin'"

Yep . . .

[zer0]

Unlike some others, I see no reason to feel sorry for Argentina. Regardless, I hope the final result doesn't dissuade them from endeavouring to play the kind of rugby they played in the first half. If they turn up and play like that in Australia, then they should secure the win.

[scuzzaman]

I think Marshy's nailed it. All Blacks score is a reflection of how clinical they are, but I'd also say the scoreline doesn't fairly reflect the Argentine effort tonight.

I can't agree with this. I understand it, kind of, but the score is the only thing that fairly reflects the team's effort on the night.

[scuzzaman]

Unlike some others, I see no reason to feel sorry for Argentina. Regardless, I hope the final result doesn't dissuade them from endeavouring to play the kind of rugby they played in the first half. If they turn up and play like that in Australia, then they should secure the win.

This.

This is what I want to see from them.

[Spy]

I reckon Argentina are playing as well as I've ever seen them play. They should have beaten South Africa in both Tests, and were the better side for half the match against NZ. Their issue still seems to be running out of steam in the final quarter, which is where SA caught (and nearly caught) them. It was the final half-hour in the AB's game, but same principle. I like the ball-handling skills they're displaying, their back row are tough and effective, and their backs can actually play now. I hope they put on a good effort against Australia - they could win.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I reckon Argentina are playing as well as I've ever seen them play. They should have beaten South Africa in both Tests, and were the better side for half the match against NZ. Their issue still seems to be running out of steam in the final quarter, which is where SA caught (and nearly caught) them. It was the final half-hour in the AB's game, but same principle. I like the ball-handling skills they're displaying, their back row are tough and effective, and their backs can actually play now. I hope they put on a good effort against Australia - they could win.

I don't think it's a fitness issue, more a concentration issue - speaking as a fan of a team that used to perennially have the same problem. I do agree that they are an excellent side. I'm slightly at a loss as to how one beats this NZ side. The Argentinians went for taking you on at the fast game but discovered they couldn't do it as well as you for as long as you. However you can't just grind the game out because you need the defensive speed to cope with the ball being kept alive or rucked in an instant. Any ideas chaps? I'm asking for a Gatfriend.

[rowan]

Yes, I agree with you, Spy, despite my previous comments directly after the match. Argentina have made great strides over the past decade in particular, with two World Cup semis appearances and now making a habit of beating the Boks. They were among the last of the 'top tier' nations to fully embrace professionalism, but since making that transition, in order to capacitate entry into SANZAR competitions, they have clearly joined the elite fold. Their Everest, like everyone else's, is obviously the All Blacks, and sadly they didn't get close in this encounter. Their best chances were obviously the draw in Buenos Aires in 1985 - when hulking number 8 Ernesto Ure drove to within centimetres of the All Blacks' line in the final seconds, and 2001 - when Felipe Contepomi failed to find touch with a clearing kick in injuy time, allowing the All Blacks to run it back and score the winner. The latter was soul-destroying, and might have seen Los Pumas added to SANZAR several years before they actually were. Still, now they're in the competition and will only get stronger. It may not be this year or next, but that elusive victory over the All Blacks is going to come . . .

[Spy]

I agree that it does seem to be concentration rather than fitness that is letting them down later in the game.

The All Blacks are playing well, and it's great to see. The usual way teams have got the upper hand on us is fast linespeed shutting down any attempt at backplay. Remove the space. It's hard to do that consistently for 80min though, and I also think we have a pack at the moment with no obvious weaknesses - good lineout, adequate-to-goodish scrum, physical in the tight - so I don't think grinding and bullying alone will work. It's probably still the basis for a NH win over a NZ side though - win the forward battle, play territory, kick penalties, aggressive defence, shut NZ down and feed off mistakes. It may not be enough, but I think it's probably the Lions best chance. Try and out-NZ NZ and the Lions will lose, IMO.

[Lizard]

How do you beat the All Blacks?

TL;DR is that you need some fundamental structures beneath national team level to be consistent at the All Blacks level. A one-off win might be achievable if the stars align of course.

1. Ensure financial control of the game sits with the national Union (sorry, France).

2. Ensure that there is a broad consensus from the grassroots up, but particularly at senior domestic level, that the main point of the whole system is to product the best possible national team. (Sorry, England)

3. Indoctrinate the whole nation to believe that there is no higher purpose than playing rugby for your country (sorry, Australia)

4. Ensure all players, regardless of position, have superlative basic skills (catch, pass, dummy, step, kick, tackle) and can perform them under pressure. (Sorry, Scotland)

5. Develop players' mental skills to enable them to remain calm and make good decisions under pressure. (Sorry, Wales)

6. Have a variety of match strategies and tactics available, and be ready and able to switch, mid-match if necessary. (Sorry, South Africa)

7. Have sufficient player depth (and strength of domestic rugby) that several players are available in any position who could step up and fill a gap in the national squad. (Sorry, Ireland)

[rowan]

8. Have a healthy supply of explosive Polynesians in the backline. (Sorry, everybody except the Pacific Islands)

9. Have a decent forward pack. (Sorry, Pacific Islands)

[Lizard]

8. Have a healthy supply of explosive Polynesians in the backline. (Sorry, everybody except the Pacific Islands)

9. Have a decent forward pack. (Sorry, Pacific Islands)

Erm, what about Kerevi, Naiyatavoro, Speight, Feeuai-Sautia, Kuridrani, Toomua, Folau, Leali'ifano, Tomane etc?

Or are you classifying Australia as a Pacific Island?

England of course has had Manu Tuilagi, Rokoduguni, Hape, Vainikolo and Flutey.

Even France has Vakatawa and Nakaitaci. And I'm not even going to start on Maori Italians and Tongan Japanese.

Your point (which I know is at least partly tongue in cheek) is really that NZ does have access to a nearby/present population of physically adept men for whom (generalising grossly) a shot at a pro rugby career is one of the only realistic routes to financial security.

You could point to the ARU's utter neglect of Australia's own indigenous population (compared with AFL and NRL, even). Or South Africa's sloth like moves towards "transformation," or even England's failure to move their game much from a posh boys sport to one that chavs from the housing estates might be interested in.

The other point of course is how bereft the All Blacks backline would be if we had to rely solely on players like Beauden Barrett, Ben Smith, Conrad Smith, Ryan Crotty etc*. We might have some issues at half-back and left wing, I guess.

*Cue shitstorm of replies telling me that one or more of these pale faces is in fact proud tangata whenua.

[rowan]

Yes, the prominence of Pacific Islanders in the Australian team is testimony to their natural aptitude for the sport, as they represent only 1% of that nation's population, and the cream of the talent will invariably be sucked off by the higher profile league code. By Pacific Islanders I mean Polynesians and Melanesians of either Pacific Island ancestry or birth, just to be clear. In the European nations, as well as Japan's, it is clear that we are talking about poaching in the vast majority of cases. In New Zealand, however we are talking about 7.5% of the population, and almost twice as many as Australia with appox. 300 K compared to 170 K.

Yes, the comment was partly tongue in cheek, but two things coincidental to New Zealand's rise to the top (having played 2nd string to SA during much of the amateur era, and increasingly struggling to maintain its dominance of Australia toward the end of that period) were the transition to professionalism and the arrival of Pacific Islanders on the scene.

Australia has undoubtedly neglected its indigenous population, and continues to do so. It may be among the worst examples in this respect, but is hardly alone. So I won't go into that. But I don't think the rugby codes can really be faulted in that regard, as both union and league have appeared to embrace players of all ethnicities - although union was traditionally the domain of the upper class schools, like in Britain and South Africa, & thereby inaccessible to the native population. The other issue is that Aborigines and Pacific Islanders are very different both physically and temperamentally; the former having more in common with the people of the Indian sub-continent than they do with Samoans & Tongans, for example. They may produce some great individual players like the Ella brothers, but when a rugby official declared (many years ago) that they ought to show the 'same fighting spirit as the Maori' he was quickly dismissed as a racist and never heard from again.

The influx of Pacific Islanders into New Zealand began in earnest in the 1960s, so that in rugby terms it reached fruition in the 1980s. Initially they gravitated more toward league, primarily because it was professional, and also in reaction to union's ongoing contacts with Apartheid South Africa. But that began to change in the shamateur era as the Springboks were removed from the equation and the inaugural World Cup heralded the dawn of a more glamorous new age for the hitherto beleagured code. & among the stars of the inaugural tournament was a Samoan - Michael Jones.

Inevitably the Pacific Islanders have had their own influence on the game in New Zealand, and the likes of Barrett, Crotty & the Smiths, et al, can be thankful for this. During the amateur era it was in the backline that the All Blacks were most often found wanting against the Springboks - and even the Wallabies at times. Traditionally New Zealand played a forward-dominated game, honed to near perfection in the wet and slushy conditions of the nation's winters. But when matched in that department, as they invariably were in South Africa, they tended to come off 2nd best. Indeed, that was evident as recently as the Cavaliers tour of 1986, when Gerber and co ran riot. But with the arrival of Pacific Islanders on the scene, New Zealand has completely turned the tables in that department, and this has now become its main advantage.

[Mr Mwenda]

I'm actually increasingly pleased by the ethnic diversity of the england team. Plenty of work to be done mind, but the public school roots of the game are deep. It's never been as simple as the stereotype makes out, mind.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I'm actually increasingly pleased by the ethnic diversity of the england team. Plenty of work to be done mind, but the public school roots of the game are deep. It's never been as simple as the stereotype makes out, mind.

Isn't Itoje an old Harrovian? I'm not sure the school mix is changing much, just the mix in the schools.

[Mr Mwenda]

I'm actually increasingly pleased by the ethnic diversity of the england team. Plenty of work to be done mind, but the public school roots of the game are deep. It's never been as simple as the stereotype makes out, mind.

Isn't Itoje an old Harrovian? I'm not sure the school mix is changing much, just the mix in the schools.

You're probably right there. I should've written my post differently to avoid conflating ethnic diversity with educational background.

I do get the feeling that the elite rugby schools are perhaps casting their nets a bit wider for talent to award scholarships to but that may be wrong.

[scuzzaman]

A one-off win might be achievable if the stars align of course.

Yep. There's beating the All Blacks (a one-off stars-aligned deal) and there's surviving the inevitable lashback to win a series against them (which requires something else).

One of which will inevitably one day be the complacency of a champion side who're favourites and have forgotten they can lose. The current coaching staff have done amazingly well in keeping that crap out of the players heads, imo.

As for Argentina, I don't think it is fair to hold them in contempt (even the mild contempt of thinking they don't deserve their position in the Rugby Champs) because of the weekend's result.

Nobody says that about France but look what the All Blacks did to them in the RWC ... 62 to 13, wasn't it? 57 to 22 doesn't look any worse to me.

[J Dory]

Yes, the prominence of Pacific Islanders in the Australian team is testimony to their natural aptitude for the sport, as they represent only 1% of that nation's population, and the cream of the talent will invariably be sucked off by the higher profile league code. By Pacific Islanders I mean Polynesians and Melanesians of either Pacific Island ancestry or birth, just to be clear. In the European nations, as well as Japan's, it is clear that we are talking about poaching in the vast majority of cases. In New Zealand, however we are talking about 7.5% of the population, and almost twice as many as Australia with appox. 300 K compared to 170 K.

Yes, the comment was partly tongue in cheek, but two things coincidental to New Zealand's rise to the top (having played 2nd string to SA during much of the amateur era, and increasingly struggling to maintain its dominance of Australia toward the end of that period) were the transition to professionalism and the arrival of Pacific Islanders on the scene.

Australia has undoubtedly neglected its indigenous population, and continues to do so. It may be among the worst examples in this respect, but is hardly alone. So I won't go into that. But I don't think the rugby codes can really be faulted in that regard, as both union and league have appeared to embrace players of all ethnicities - although union was traditionally the domain of the upper class schools, like in Britain and South Africa, & thereby inaccessible to the native population. The other issue is that Aborigines and Pacific Islanders are very different both physically and temperamentally; the former having more in common with the people of the Indian sub-continent than they do with Samoans & Tongans, for example. They may produce some great individual players like the Ella brothers, but when a rugby official declared (many years ago) that they ought to show the 'same fighting spirit as the Maori' he was quickly dismissed as a racist and never heard from again.

The influx of Pacific Islanders into New Zealand began in earnest in the 1960s, so that in rugby terms it reached fruition in the 1980s. Initially they gravitated more toward league, primarily because it was professional, and also in reaction to union's ongoing contacts with Apartheid South Africa. But that began to change in the shamateur era as the Springboks were removed from the equation and the inaugural World Cup heralded the dawn of a more glamorous new age for the hitherto beleagured code. & among the stars of the inaugural tournament was a Samoan - Michael Jones.

Inevitably the Pacific Islanders have had their own influence on the game in New Zealand, and the likes of Barrett, Crotty & the Smiths, et al, can be thankful for this. During the amateur era it was in the backline that the All Blacks were most often found wanting against the Springboks - and even the Wallabies at times. Traditionally New Zealand played a forward-dominated game, honed to near perfection in the wet and slushy conditions of the nation's winters. But when matched in that department, as they invariably were in South Africa, they tended to come off 2nd best. Indeed, that was evident as recently as the Cavaliers tour of 1986, when Gerber and co ran riot. But with the arrival of Pacific Islanders on the scene, New Zealand has completely turned the tables in that department, and this has now become its main advantage.

So not so tongue in cheek then, I'm basing that on the three paragraph justification and last sentence stating "has now become its main advantage".

I don't want to downplay the contribution that Maori and Pacific Island people have made to the success of the All Blacks, it's immense, but if you think that the reason the All Blacks are dominant is because we have more brown dudes, you're spectacularly missing the point. Go back to Lizards list of points. Add in that you'll find a game of touch in parks, on beaches, in the school playground at lunchtime. It's NZ's national game.