Cipriani returns to Wasps

[WiganShark]

Yes of course you are right the about the lets ignore Sale conspiracy. Thing is Sale and Newcastle rarely get much press or TV coverage. This season Sale get two prem matches covered by BT. Second tier challenge cup not much coverage. Press reports tend to be second hand Aviva, Sky, BBC all seem to have the same few words. Broadsheets other than Guardian occasionally hardly a mention, I have in the past read the same report 4 or 5 times in the on line media.
So you can see where the idea probably emanates.

[Puja]

In the squad but not the match day squad. Cipriani lost out to another guy who's not exactly been tearing up the AP this year. Tommy Taylor can feel a bit hard done by as well.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, but it's obviously easier to get into the England squad from a club in the right European competition.

It is obviously easier to get in when you're in the right competition and get the stage to show what you can do against the best, but the answer to that is to get into the right competition and to actually put out your A side when you're there.

I can't pick Beaumont above Vunipola, nor Taylor above any of the three hookers in the squad (maybe LCD, but 3rd hooker is clearly a development project and LCD's carrying takes him above Taylor as one for the future). Cipriani is maybe a tad unlucky in that he has been playing better than Ford, but Ford's a young project as well and he's hardly been doing anything to demand attention.

I'd say Sale's Englishmen are getting just about the level of England recognition that they deserve at present and I doubt either Taylor or Cipriani's move will magically get them more without accompanying improved performances.

Puja

[Digby]

I'd say Sale's Englishmen are getting just about the level of England recognition that they deserve at present and I doubt either Taylor or Cipriani's move will magically get them more without accompanying improved performances.

Possibly true, but there are a number who've played for England (and indeed some who still are) as little or less deserving

[Peat]

In the squad but not the match day squad. Cipriani lost out to another guy who's not exactly been tearing up the AP this year. Tommy Taylor can feel a bit hard done by as well.

I don't think it's a conspiracy, but it's obviously easier to get into the England squad from a club in the right European competition.

It is obviously easier to get in when you're in the right competition and get the stage to show what you can do against the best, but the answer to that is to get into the right competition and to actually put out your A side when you're there.

I can't pick Beaumont above Vunipola, nor Taylor above any of the three hookers in the squad (maybe LCD, but 3rd hooker is clearly a development project and LCD's carrying takes him above Taylor as one for the future). Cipriani is maybe a tad unlucky in that he has been playing better than Ford, but Ford's a young project as well and he's hardly been doing anything to demand attention.

I'd say Sale's Englishmen are getting just about the level of England recognition that they deserve at present and I doubt either Taylor or Cipriani's move will magically get them more without accompanying improved performances.

Puja

Cipriani is playing better than the incumbent England fly-half but is getting the level of England recognition he deserves? Riiiiiight.

I'm out

[Puja]

Cipriani is playing better than the incumbent England fly-half but is getting the level of England recognition he deserves? Riiiiiight.

I'm out

You think it's utterly unreasonable to pick Ford over Cipriani? Yes, he's in a form slump, but he's 22 and has shown it for England recently and the chances are he'll come good again in the future. I don't think it's outrageous to pick him over a 28 year old who is clearly a long way from top form as well.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Cipriani is playing better than the incumbent England fly-half but is getting the level of England recognition he deserves? Riiiiiight.

I'm out

You think it's utterly unreasonable to pick Ford over Cipriani? Yes, he's in a form slump, but he's 22 and has shown it for England recently and the chances are he'll come good again in the future. I don't think it's outrageous to pick him over a 28 year old who is clearly a long way from top form as well.

Puja

Puja, why do you say that Cips is clearly a long way from top form? I'd say he was playing at around 90% of his best possible and that he can only improve that in a better team.

[Banquo]

Cipriani is playing better than the incumbent England fly-half but is getting the level of England recognition he deserves? Riiiiiight.

I'm out

You think it's utterly unreasonable to pick Ford over Cipriani? Yes, he's in a form slump, but he's 22 and has shown it for England recently and the chances are he'll come good again in the future. I don't think it's outrageous to pick him over a 28 year old who is clearly a long way from top form as well.

Puja

Puja, why do you say that Cips is clearly a long way from top form? I'd say he was playing at around 90% of his best possible and that he can only improve that in a better team.

when did you see him play Dors, I've not seen him for ages.

[Peej]

Hanley?

Steve 'top try scorer in the Prem for years but only one England cap' Hanley? Don't think he came from League tbh.

Massive irony fail on my part. Apologies.

[Banquo]

Hanley?

Steve 'top try scorer in the Prem for years but only one England cap' Hanley? Don't think he came from League tbh.

Massive irony fail on my part. Apologies.

me too then!

[Oakboy]

when did you see him play Dors, I've not seen him for ages.

Ah, that's a point. Whenever he was last on BT. I try never to miss his games but I can't remember the last one. Reports suggest he is improving if anything, though, and he certainly looked sharp when I did see him. I've seen him in several highlight shots fairly recently which indicated the same.

[Which Tyler]

I've seen him in several highlight shots fairly recently which indicated the same.

I wouldn't put too much on that though - Cips has always had a good highlights reel

[Puja]

Puja, why do you say that Cips is clearly a long way from top form? I'd say he was playing at around 90% of his best possible and that he can only improve that in a better team.

See, I'd've said he was operating far below his top level. He's not running the backs the way I've seen in previous years, nor is he showing any maverick brilliance. Plus his kicking percentage is down on his usual.

IMHO, if he was at 90% of his best, he'd be demanding his selection.

Puja

[Pie Man]

Bit gutted about this seeing as Nick Evans has a suspected broken leg and could accelerate the need for a top, full-time replacement next year.

[Oakboy]

IMHO, if he was at 90% of his best, he'd be demanding his selection.

Puja

It will be interesting to see what happens next season, then. He'll get more exposure in a better team with no excuses on either side. For what it's worth, I think the only reason he is not in England's 10 shirt is his reputation. Assuming that there are no legitimate doubts about that once he's settled at Wasps, we'll see!!!!

[APR]

Sale - small club, limited resources, mediocre players by Premiership standards.

Wasps - big history, and amazing change from penniless waifs of the Prem constantly looking for pocket-money in the sofa to big-stadium, well-funded operation with huge promise amongst the current playing staff.

Even without his previous Wasps history, the move is a no-brainer.

[I R Geech]

Dimes spitting his dummy a bit today. Having spent last week moaning that England selectors are ignoring Northern clubs, he's now calling Cips misguided for thinking that moving to Wasps will help his selection chances. Brilliant.

[Banquo]

Dimes spitting his dummy a bit today. Having spent last week moaning that England selectors are ignoring Northern clubs, he's now calling Cips misguided for thinking that moving to Wasps will help his selection chances. Brilliant.

hardly surprising though

[firstphase]

Dimes spitting his dummy a bit today. Having spent last week moaning that England selectors are ignoring Northern clubs, he's now calling Cips misguided for thinking that moving to Wasps will help his selection chances. Brilliant.

hardly surprising though

Exactly. All that "once a Wasp, always a Wasp" guff from Cipriani was pretty insensitive. And no "thanks Sale" in his statement either.


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[Banquo]

Dimes spitting his dummy a bit today. Having spent last week moaning that England selectors are ignoring Northern clubs, he's now calling Cips misguided for thinking that moving to Wasps will help his selection chances. Brilliant.

hardly surprising though

Exactly. All that "once a Wasp, always a Wasp" guff from Cipriani was pretty insensitive. And no "thanks Sale" in his statement either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

quite, especially as you could argue that Sale 're-habbed' him to English rugby.

[Peat]

Cipriani is playing better than the incumbent England fly-half but is getting the level of England recognition he deserves? Riiiiiight.

I'm out

You think it's utterly unreasonable to pick Ford over Cipriani? Yes, he's in a form slump, but he's 22 and has shown it for England recently and the chances are he'll come good again in the future. I don't think it's outrageous to pick him over a 28 year old who is clearly a long way from top form as well.

Puja

Give me the 28 year old. Give me the man who's made his mistakes and learned from them rather than having a healthy amount of them left to make. Give me the guy entering his peak years who'll still still be there come the next World Cup over the guy who's a long way from his peak and will still be a little short of it come the World Cup.

That's a general statement, not a Cips and Ford statement, but if the argument for Ford is age based, then that should count against him. In an ideal world, inconsistent 22 year olds would be injury cover, bench game-changers, and rotation for playing the minnows, while players in their peak years would be entrusted with starting.

[twitchy]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/f ... y-cipriani

I appreciate the sentiment from EJ (he said he snuck into the saracens game after the initial squad was announced with out itjoe and he put in a motm performance which got him called up).

At the same time I think it's harsh criticising players for "talking in the press" when they are specifically asked questions by journos.

[Puja]

Give me the 28 year old. Give me the man who's made his mistakes and learned from them rather than having a healthy amount of them left to make. Give me the guy entering his peak years who'll still still be there come the next World Cup over the guy who's a long way from his peak and will still be a little short of it come the World Cup.

That's a general statement, not a Cips and Ford statement, but if the argument for Ford is age based, then that should count against him. In an ideal world, inconsistent 22 year olds would be injury cover, bench game-changers, and rotation for playing the minnows, while players in their peak years would be entrusted with starting.

See, I'd go with that if we were talking about a 28 year old with 40 caps and who was a significant presence in the international game. As it is, we're comparing someone who's had 3 caps over the last 2 years and someone who's had 19.

I would rather play the 22 year old, give him the experience to get his mistakes out of the way and have him be a 26 year old with 50 caps by the next RWC. I also appreciate Eddie's point of view raised today, which is that if Cipriani wants in, he can raise his game. He's capable of a lot more than he's showing and, like you said, he's been around, made his mistakes and should be in his prime. There no excuse of callow youth for him not showing his best and he can't be considered a development project.

But then, your mileage may vary.

Puja

[Puja]

At the same time I think it's harsh criticising players for "talking in the press" when they are specifically asked questions by journos.

If he said no comment a bit more, then they'd stop asking. It's a bit unfair to pick on him for being a media darling, but he does know how to make the attention stop if he wanted to.

Puja

[Banquo]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/f ... y-cipriani

I appreciate the sentiment from EJ (he said he snuck into the saracens game after the initial squad was announced with out itjoe and he put in a motm performance which got him called up).

At the same time I think it's harsh criticising players for "talking in the press" when they are specifically asked questions by journos.

not sure he is criticising them talking to the press, more saying its actions not words that will make an impact.

Cips would do well though to keep some of his thoughts to himself.

[Digby]

Cips would do well though to keep some of his thoughts to himself.

That or people should listen to him if they want him in the team, at least in part. He wasn't wrong when he told Wells his attack plan was rubbish and wouldn't work.