Anti-Zionism

[SerjeantWildgoose]

But some people do undermine their own arguments. In this particular context, blaming Israel for every event in the world they find bad in some way. Israelis pulling a the strings of western leaders. It's an evolution of the blood libel and pushes that anti Israeli message into something a bit more sinister. What about active online campaigners against Israel who refuse to accept any facts that's counter their argument, we condemn Trump for his fake news approach do we not?

I am sorry, but I don't want to have the context changed and become beguiled by the argument on immigration in the UK - that too is one of the tactics often used to divert from the debate on the issue at hand.

Having said that, I agree with you again. Some do extrapolate from a legitimate position of protest to one which stretches and then exceeds the bounds of acceptable argument or debate.

To suggest, as some may have done, that the financial crash of 2008 was the work of a global Jewish conspiracy is clearly falacious and anti-Semitic to boot. To suggest that there is a Jewish lobby in America, that it is extremely powerful and that it has an influence on American state policy is not falacious and not, I would argue, anti-Semitic when such a situation has a clear bearing on the freedom of Israel to act illegally.

I do not deny any American the right to lobby his own government or at least not until that lobbying impacts on another state's freedom to perpetrate or persist in activity that the International Community has determined to be illegal.

In this explicit context (Macron's conflation of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism) I would maintain that it is entirely reasonable to blame Zionism for the unsustainable demands placed on an Israeli state confined to its pre-1967 (And Internationally recognised) boundaries; It is not reasonable to blame Jews.

[SerjeantWildgoose]

What are their sanctions for ignoring the call up? And how do so many qualify for exemptions?

Conscientious objectors, religious exemptions for women and partial excemptions of the ultra-orthodox, medical, educational defferments all start to build up and account for about 2/3 of those who avoid military service.

I'm not sure what the penalties are for deliberately abvoiding conscription, but whereas 10 years ago an Israeli could be denied employment on the grounds of not having served in the IDF, prospective employers are no longer allowed under law to even ask.

[Sandydragon]

But some people do undermine their own arguments. In this particular context, blaming Israel for every event in the world they find bad in some way. Israelis pulling a the strings of western leaders. It's an evolution of the blood libel and pushes that anti Israeli message into something a bit more sinister. What about active online campaigners against Israel who refuse to accept any facts that's counter their argument, we condemn Trump for his fake news approach do we not?

I am sorry, but I don't want to have the context changed and become beguiled by the argument on immigration in the UK - that too is one of the tactics often used to divert from the debate on the issue at hand.

Having said that, I agree with you again. Some do extrapolate from a legitimate position of protest to one which stretches and then exceeds the bounds of acceptable argument or debate.

To suggest, as some may have done, that the financial crash of 2008 was the work of a global Jewish conspiracy is clearly falacious and anti-Semitic to boot. To suggest that there is a Jewish lobby in America, that it is extremely powerful and that it has an influence on American state policy is not falacious and not, I would argue, anti-Semitic when such a situation has a clear bearing on the freedom of Israel to act illegally.

I do not deny any American the right to lobby his own government or at least not until that lobbying impacts on another state's freedom to perpetrate or persist in activity that the International Community has determined to be illegal.

In this explicit context (Macron's conflation of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism) I would maintain that it is entirely reasonable to blame Zionism for the unsustainable demands placed on an Israeli state confined to its pre-1967 (And Internationally recognised) boundaries; It is not reasonable to blame Jews.

I'm not attempting to change the debate, just providing another example. I could have suggested that legitimate arguments again Israel have been used by people who are most definitely anti-Semitic - my point was that such things happen in most debates.

Agree on your final paragraph. In my opinion, there are too many influential people on both sides who don't want the 2 state solution where both Israel and Palestine are viable, independent countries based on the '67 borders. However, the building of settlements onto land that exceeds that original border is definitely counter productive for future peaceful coexistence.

Unfortunately, the opportunities for successful compromise feel like they have been missed.

[Sandydragon]

What are their sanctions for ignoring the call up? And how do so many qualify for exemptions?

Conscientious objectors, religious exemptions for women and partial excemptions of the ultra-orthodox, medical, educational defferments all start to build up and account for about 2/3 of those who avoid military service.

I'm not sure what the penalties are for deliberately abvoiding conscription, but whereas 10 years ago an Israeli could be denied employment on the grounds of not having served in the IDF, prospective employers are no longer allowed under law to even ask.

That has always struck me as being ironic.

[kk67]

I'm happy for there to exist a State of Israel. They've earned it.

I'm not happy when it becomes fascism, colonialism or Holy war. The Jews and the Muslims shared Jerusalem in harmony for over 300 years. Israel, it seems, 'needs room to breathe'.

[SerjeantWildgoose]

OK, I'll bite.

What have 'they' done to earn it? And in the specifics of the current situation, what have the Palestinians that they have forced off the land done to 'deserve' the situation that they now find themselves in?

I would suggest that Israel's right to exist is somewhat unique in that no other religion has an internationally recognised right to establish itself as a state on land that has been occupied by others for well over a millennium, it was established by force and with the connivance of international ineptitude and is allowed to persist in criminal activity largely, if not only, because of the unwarranted sense of guilt felt by three of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council.

[Big D]

Semi relevant to discussions. It will only foster resentment.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 52101.html

Saw this, "The so-called “Israel Anti-Boycott Act” would impose fines of up to $250,000 (£192,000) on any US citizen “engaged in interstate or foreign commerce” who supports a boycott of Israeli goods and services." seems pretty harsh to me.

[Sandydragon]

Semi relevant to discussions. It will only foster resentment.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 52101.html

Saw this, "The so-called “Israel Anti-Boycott Act” would impose fines of up to $250,000 (£192,000) on any US citizen “engaged in interstate or foreign commerce” who supports a boycott of Israeli goods and services." seems pretty harsh to me.

Surely a matter of personal conscience?

[Digby]

Semi relevant to discussions. It will only foster resentment.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 52101.html

Saw this, "The so-called “Israel Anti-Boycott Act” would impose fines of up to $250,000 (£192,000) on any US citizen “engaged in interstate or foreign commerce” who supports a boycott of Israeli goods and services." seems pretty harsh to me.

Surely a matter of personal conscience?

The land where you're increasingly free to persecute those who don't confirm to a narrow view of the world.

[Sandydragon]

The problem is that its just a bigoted as the anti-semitic crowd and just as self defeating.

[kk67]

OK, I'll bite.

What have 'they' done to earn it? And in the specifics of the current situation, what have the Palestinians that they have forced off the land done to 'deserve' the situation that they now find themselves in?.

Like the Oirish, the Jews have had a pretty hard time of it and yet they still make a massive contribution to life on Earth. Back in the day, the 7 tribes had their wars and there were schisms in their faith,....but they were there. There's no doubt about that.
bbc 4 did a Viking night recently. It's interesting how the Vikings had no 'missionary zeal'. They just settled and mixed in with the locals.

[rowan]

Wow, I thought I'd heard it all on this topic, but just listen to this rabbi shred the entire notion of a Jewish capital

[rowan]

This gets interesting a few minutes in:

[kk67]

I watched a debate on Sky news last night, hosted by Nick Ferrari, the subject was male circumcision. Iceland are in the process of banning the practise. As you can imagine the quality of debate was woeful with the exception of Maajid Nawaz who is seriously considering the issue now he has an infant Son and despite having been circumcised himself. He feels we should raise the age to 16...and that's a sensible suggestion. Robbing children of the chance to explore their sexual development just because a spiritual leader (who's probably suffering from maladapted psycho-sexual development anyway) tells us we should, is idiocy. Without sounding pervy, who are these people telling us to mutilate our beautiful new-born's genitalia ?. It looks like Witch Doctor, people control to me.
Carole Malone (Daily Mail, Glenda Slagg) was leading the: 'It's a central tenant of the Jewish faith' crap and moaning it was an infringement of religious freedom.
Happily, June Sarpong reminded Carole that she was constantly writing articles in the Fail about the nefarious nature of Muslim women wearing the hijab or niqab. Carole's face fell to the floor. It was a wonderful moment even though Sarpong herself comes from an African nation that also practises male circumcision.

When it comes to the hard-right Jewish faith then I'm sorry but I am an anti-Semite. Their business practises are despicable and lead to war and worse...... but then I also went to school with a lot of liberal Jewish guys, many of whose names some of you would probably recognize as they are serious writers. I doubt any of them give Carole the time of day. Even when they're 'jolly mate journo's' at award ceremonies I'd imagine once she leaves the room they roll their eyes and say 'she's just getting worse'.

If I'd been there I'd have asked Carole if she used an anti-wrinkle cream to hold back the years......and then asked her if she knew the cream was made from the infant foreskins she's so happily advocating cutting after 8 days.
The sad thing is.......she probably does.

[kk67]

Has Sarpong been at Sky for a long time..? That was the first time I've seen her on telly in 10 years.
She's quality. She's Launchbury quality.
Sarpong/Launchbury offspring. How cool would that be p/d..?

[SerjeantWildgoose]

I can't see Sam Sarpong (Snr) standing idly by while that ugly fecker Launchbury attempts to inseminate his daughter. The circumcision knives would likely be deployed to more justifiable purpose.

... even though Sarpong herself comes from an African nation that also practises male circumcision.

They're fecking savages in East London, I tell ye! Her dad is from Ghana, but June is born and bred in Lahndan init.

And some Ghanaians, like many sub-saharan west-Africans, continue to practice the barbarity of circumcision on their male and female children.

[Stones of granite]

I was circumcised as a 10 year old for medical reasons, and now I’m a bit alarmed to discover that I was robbed of the chance as a child to explore my sexual development.

[SerjeantWildgoose]

I too was circumcised for medical reasons as a youngster.

If only I’d known that Nanette Newman might have been rubbing a bit of my dick on her face every night, I could have thrashed myself into virtual blindness over the thought!

[kk67]

You both have my sympathy.
The anecdotal testimony of those men that had to be circumcised in later life suggests it's a bad practise.

Apropos of zilch,.....If you've ever wondered why USA porn is crap, it's precisely because of the prevalence of East and West coast male circumcision.
They have to engage in abusive swearing at each other in the height of passion.....it's because the circumcised actor needs extra encouragement as a result of having the most sensitive part of his penis chopped off.
Fact.

[kk67]

I think there is now a plastic surgery op' that can adapt or augment the foreskin for those that have a too tight pullover.

[kk67]

Confess, I'm not sure what the Jewish right-wing are attempting to achieve today. I get the feeling they're just pissed because a lot of their right-wing think tanks, NGO's and accountancy firms are getting caught bang to rights.
Of course, the Tories don't mind a bit of support ATM.

Noted the Jewish Chronicle wasn't advertising/showing their support on the 'radical placards'.

[rowan]

Israel is very reminiscent of Apartheid South Africa when I was a kid.

[kk67]

I got pissed about Katie.

[Sandydragon]

British Jews concerned by a labour leader who seems far too close to those who push anti Semitic rubbish. If a right wing leader were to be so associated the cries of ‘Nazi’ would be loud and wide, yet St Corbyn would never associate with such people, even when he does and fails to apologise.

[Zhivago]

British Jews concerned by a labour leader who seems far too close to those who push anti Semitic rubbish. If a right wing leader were to be so associated the cries of ‘Nazi’ would be loud and wide, yet St Corbyn would never associate with such people, even when he does and fails to apologise.

There is an anti semitism issue in Labour, but it is no greater than in the country as a whole, and also not larger than in other parties. It is being reported and discussed more in Labour though, that's for sure.