Whos going down?

[Raggs]

Brian Moore, in today's DT, criticises Youngs and Ford for a failure to control the game. England's finest?

Unless they plan on staging a 2007-style coup, I don't see how they can. None of the forwards are taking the ball at pace, no-one is offering options, and everything appears to be working on a plan of, "Wait stationary for the ball and then hope some individual brilliance or opposition mistake gets us past the first line of defence."

Note that I wouldn't be averse to a 2007 style coup (for Leicester, not necessarily for England), but it's not their job to coach and tactician the rest of the team.

Puja

Ah, the Wasps attacking philosophy this season.

Honestly, I don't think Wasps are immune from being sucked downwards. Things were better on Saturday, but something still isn't right.

If Bristol lose Afoa and Luatua for a long period then they could be in trouble.

See that's where i think wasps will be ok.

With sale we're saying if they lose Faf and Harrison. Bristol it's afoa and luatua etc.

Wasps have already lost almost a full first choice 23 and still beat Bristol. When we get a few more back and a bit more consistency, i think we'll be certainly safe from relegating.

[Scrumhead]

Agreed. The Sale Issue is that their second choice players in most positions are either kids (the likes of Luke James and Gus Warr) or journeymen like Bristow or Joe Jones.

As Raggs said, Wasps are down to third string in a few positions but still probably better resourced than Sale’s second string.

Across a long, attritional season that counts. Losing someone like Faf de Klerk would be bad news, but arguably even worse if it’s someone like Ross Harrison.

[fivepointer]

And right on cue The Times reports -
"The Premiership clubs have recommenced negotiations to bring an end to promotion and relegation, with a new possibility of expanding the Gallagher Premiership to a 13-club league.
The Times has learnt that some clubs would be keen to pull up the trap door immediately and therefore ensure that no one would be relegated at the end of this season.
The first nine rounds of this season’s Premiership competition have established a situation where seven clubs are at risk of relegation, arguably nine. It is this fear that has focussed mind".

[Renniks]

Hah fascinating

I imagine they wouldn't have been concerned if it was a fight out between Wuss and Bris already!

[Tigersman]

True.

Wonder how Tigers getting relegated would affect other clubs?
(I still don't think it will happen, UNLESS it's part of this new deal)

[Puja]

A 13 team league? What a load of toss. Just ignoring that we need to be reducing the number of top teams, not increasing them, you can't have a league with an odd number of teams.

Puja

[Raggs]

Why not? By-weeks aren't uncommon in sports.

24 weeks of games, 26 including playoffs, drop the premiership cup nonsense, and you've probably got yourself a season without having to change much.

[Tigersman]

Guess the question should be how fair are bye weeks?
Feel for the team that has one first game of the season, what about getting one during internationals?

[Puja]

As Tigersman said, with the added question of the last game of the season - how fair is it for one side to have finished a week earlier and have every other side knowing what they need to score to beat them? that's hte point of all the fixtures on the last day starting at the same time.

Plus you've got a constantly unrealistic league table, as some sides will have played more than others and you'd only be able to get the true picture of the rankings twice in a season.

Puja

[Raggs]

There's normally 12 weekends when English internationals aren't available i believe so most sides will be just fine, one will be unlucky. Maybe the side with the fewest internationals in the previous season?

If one game difference for a few sides really makes that much of a difference to the table being decipherable, then I'd be quite surprised. It's only really important at the end anyway.

[Mellsblue]

Other than the fact I don’t like the idea of ring fencing I’m not really sure there is much of a problem with a 13 team league.
On the plus side, it will enforce a couple of rest weekends. With the new structure the overlap between domestic and international weekends has been removed or greatly reduced (can’t remember exact details) and if the biggest problem is that teams will be sat on one less/more game than the others for most of the season then it’s no great worry.
The argument that it’s just not fair doesn’t really stack up as we’re aleady there - the team that finishes top has to win two more games to lift the trophy and playing during the international weekends already favours some over others dependent on how many players you and your opponents have lost.

[Oakboy]

I still think that a truly professional sporting union should not accept its top national league having fixtures that clash with internationals. Any restructuring should have doing away with that anomaly top of its agenda. IMO, it is more important than juggling with numbers or relegation/promotion. If necessary, I'd scrap the play-offs and even consider not playing in European competitions. Any fan, sponsor or investor should be able to watch their 1st XV (allowing for fitness etc.) in every fixture.

[Tigersman]

I do sort of like the idea of no relegation though.
None of the clubs will become a Dragons, because their is no union to supply the better coaches and players elsewhere.

Whilst the competition at the bottom makes things very tense, if it wasn't a relegation threat it would still be 7 clubs 4 points from the top 6 and champions cup spot and that would be good experience for younger players to play in.

Guess the issue would be championship, but really how many clubs are ready to go up anyway?
Shame RFU is broke becuase it might have been a good time for them to buy into that, with CVC buying into the prem. Help the championship clubs develop their academies. (The likes of Nottingham, Doncaster, Ealing, Bedford etc do well already picking up quite a few prem academy players who fall off the system).

I would like to see a NFL gamepass come in a subscription service which could provide a full A league streams and might even be good to try and get Championship games in it, most clubs already record their games and it's pretty easy to live stream it what with good Wifi coverage and good satellite service around most of the country.

I don't know the systems just feel so outdated, look at the prem website it's 10 years behind what a top league website should be.

Rugby in England does need a shake up.

[Peej]

Unless they plan on staging a 2007-style coup, I don't see how they can. None of the forwards are taking the ball at pace, no-one is offering options, and everything appears to be working on a plan of, "Wait stationary for the ball and then hope some individual brilliance or opposition mistake gets us past the first line of defence."

Note that I wouldn't be averse to a 2007 style coup (for Leicester, not necessarily for England), but it's not their job to coach and tactician the rest of the team.

Puja

Ah, the Wasps attacking philosophy this season.

Honestly, I don't think Wasps are immune from being sucked downwards. Things were better on Saturday, but something still isn't right.

If Bristol lose Afoa and Luatua for a long period then they could be in trouble.

See that's where i think wasps will be ok.

With sale we're saying if they lose Faf and Harrison. Bristol it's afoa and luatua etc.

Wasps have already lost almost a full first choice 23 and still beat Bristol. When we get a few more back and a bit more consistency, i think we'll be certainly safe from relegating.

Yet Bristol picked up more match points in the past three weeks than Wasps.

[Stom]

I still do think the most sensible thing is 2 divisions of 10 each, fully pro and ringfenced. There could be 5 yearly demotion and promotion based on merit and ability to go pro and clubs could sign up to a waiting list incase a team were unable to continue.

But it would mean fewer games for the money men and they'll never buy into that, especially if CVC are on board. Just look at how many GPs there are in F1 nowadays. I imagine CVC would want to go to 14 clubs if at all possible and then ringfence.

[Tigersman]

I still do think the most sensible thing is 2 divisions of 10 each, fully pro and ringfenced. There could be 5 yearly demotion and promotion based on merit and ability to go pro and clubs could sign up to a waiting list incase a team were unable to continue.

But it would mean fewer games for the money men and they'll never buy into that, especially if CVC are on board. Just look at how many GPs there are in F1 nowadays. I imagine CVC would want to go to 14 clubs if at all possible and then ringfence.

All that does would make the elite teams smaller and cause more financial problems for the 2 teams getting kicked down.

Rugby can't is struggling to support 12 fully pro top flight teams let alone 20.

[Puja]

I still do think the most sensible thing is 2 divisions of 10 each, fully pro and ringfenced. There could be 5 yearly demotion and promotion based on merit and ability to go pro and clubs could sign up to a waiting list incase a team were unable to continue.

But it would mean fewer games for the money men and they'll never buy into that, especially if CVC are on board. Just look at how many GPs there are in F1 nowadays. I imagine CVC would want to go to 14 clubs if at all possible and then ringfence.

All that does would make the elite teams smaller and cause more financial problems for the 2 teams getting kicked down.

Rugby can't is struggling to support 12 fully pro top flight teams let alone 20.

In which case, do a top tier of 10 and second tier of 8. We already have 14 pro clubs (Prem, plus Irish and Ealing) and I suspect there'd be another 4 in the Championship willing to give it a crack (Pirates spring to mind, maybe Jersey and Bedford, Leeds could be an option if they stopped being crap) if it meant being taken seriously and treated on a level playing field with the rest . A real cup competition would help drive competitiveness and income for the smaller clubs and ring-fencing would mean even if they had to be semi-pro for the first few seasons to break even, they wouldn't disappear.

If you planned and funded it right, it would improve the financial status of the clubs - there wouldn't be a drop into debt and obscurity with relegation, but into a properly funded and competitive second tier that still had cup matches with the top tier. Plus there'd be far more likely to get a TV deal for the second tier if it had 8 pro teams, including some big names, and was actually taken seriously, rather than being 1 relegated side thumping others for a season. And a real cup is going to be more attractive to sponsors and television than the Mickey Mouse effort we have at the moment.

Pipe dream, as it is fewer domestic matches and thus less immediate money, so f*ck the players as we can always get more where they came from.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Right now there is only one Championship club who could come straight up and make a reasonable fist of life in the Premiership: London Irish. Ealing have the financial backing but would have to find a ground (and support as their gates dont exceed 3000). Some of the other teams have no interest in promotion (Hartpury, Richmond), while some would like to go up but dont have the means to do so (Yorkshire, Pirates, Jersey)
Unless you are well backed financially (see Bristol) taking the step up isnt at all viable.
Some kind of ring fencing seems entirely natural.
Its where you draw the line that the debate should centre on.
I like the idea of 2 leagues of 10.

[Raggs]

Ah, the Wasps attacking philosophy this season.

Honestly, I don't think Wasps are immune from being sucked downwards. Things were better on Saturday, but something still isn't right.

If Bristol lose Afoa and Luatua for a long period then they could be in trouble.

See that's where i think wasps will be ok.

With sale we're saying if they lose Faf and Harrison. Bristol it's afoa and luatua etc.

Wasps have already lost almost a full first choice 23 and still beat Bristol. When we get a few more back and a bit more consistency, i think we'll be certainly safe from relegating.

Yet Bristol picked up more match points in the past three weeks than Wasps.

2 weeks you mean, before that was Prem cup (unless we're counting that?). And again, Wasps have basically already lost everyone that someone would say "Wasps can't afford to lose...", and still managed that.

[Peej]

It was three weeks since the last Prem Cup. Bris played Exeter, Wasps and Tigers and picked up 9 points. Wasps played Northampton, Bristol and Sarries and picked up 5.

[Raggs]

It was three weeks since the last Prem Cup. Bris played Exeter, Wasps and Tigers and picked up 9 points. Wasps played Northampton, Bristol and Sarries and picked up 5.

Yep, forgot (blocked?) the Saints game. Makes me feel even better. We beat Bristol when they've been in such good form .

[fivepointer]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/this-is- ... lish-rugby

good piece this. interesting to hear a view from the Championship. Ealing do appear to be genuinely progressive and in it for the long haul.
Having a wealthy backer helps, which is not something the bulk of the Championship and below have at their disposal.

[Mellsblue]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/this-is- ... lish-rugby

good piece this. interesting to hear a view from the Championship. Ealing do appear to be genuinely progressive and in it for the long haul.
Having a wealthy backer helps, which is not something the bulk of the Championship and below have at their disposal.

He’ll have to buy an awful lot of fans.


I’m not at all jealous.

[Tigersman]

Isn't the worry with Ealing is that his family don't exactly like rugby if something like that? and with the owner being 81 the slight worry what might happen further down the line?

Who ever is in charge would have to put in a lot of capital for the ground.


On the academy point, England doesn't have the space to support Prem and Championship academies. Leeds was lucky in that it formed at the beginning.
Areas like the North and Cornwall could work but the midlands for example is already a bit of a mess what with Wasps jumping into the area.

The Uni and Championship academy route is starting to pick up more and more former U18 academy players, Tigers have a couple in Nottingham and Doncaster for example.

In an ideal world the Champ and Prem would be run under the same system, the fact that the Champ games are barely televised is annoying.

Amazon seem to be keen on getting into sports and a Prem, A league + Champ streaming deal would be my dream with a big increase investment in the champ, but again won't ever happen.

[Rich]

Nothing against Leicester who have been a great English rugby clubs over the years.

But wouldn't it be a wake up call to English rugby if they went down?

The simple truth is that English club rugby is weak and will never compete against Irish provinces or super-rich French clubs.


The English premiership title is between Saracens and Exeter.

The brutal truth is that relegation is between all the rest.


The English game has to evolve. Clubs can't carry English rugby forward. English rugby needs provincial rugby if it is to challenge the best in world rugby.

12 professional clubs is too many...the talent and support is spread too thin.

At most English rugby can support 6 super-clubs or provinces.


Most will disagree but year by year you're being proven wrong.