RugbyRebels

Completely refusing to acknowledge the election outcome. It's not going to stay peaceful indefinitely in the face of this obstinance. Not good.

morepork wrote:Completely refusing to acknowledge the election outcome. It's not going to stay peaceful indefinitely in the face of this obstinance. Not good.

Is there no avenue for New Zealand/Australia to put pressure on him to step down, considering that all of the judicial reviews have concluded that he's in the wrong and he's lost? Surely the prospect of losing the confidence of their major trading partners would see him see sense?

Puja

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:Completely refusing to acknowledge the election outcome. It's not going to stay peaceful indefinitely in the face of this obstinance. Not good.

Is there no avenue for New Zealand/Australia to put pressure on him to step down, considering that all of the judicial reviews have concluded that he's in the wrong and he's lost? Surely the prospect of losing the confidence of their major trading partners would see him see sense?

Puja

NZ needs to check it's tone whatever course of action is taken. Before being brainwashed by jebus, Samoa had a healthy resistance to European colonisation and a drive for independence. The NZ police force went postal on them in 1929 (Black Saturday). It took us until 2002 to formally apologise, and it still smarts for Samoans. Early NZ institutions were pretty fucking medieval, like small man's syndrome over the whole (white) country.

There is a treaty signed in 1962 between the two countries whereby NZ can get involved if asked, but I'm not so keen on sticking our nose in other's business without some very careful consideration.

morepork wrote:

Puja wrote:

morepork wrote:Completely refusing to acknowledge the election outcome. It's not going to stay peaceful indefinitely in the face of this obstinance. Not good.

Is there no avenue for New Zealand/Australia to put pressure on him to step down, considering that all of the judicial reviews have concluded that he's in the wrong and he's lost? Surely the prospect of losing the confidence of their major trading partners would see him see sense?

Puja

NZ needs to check it's tone whatever course of action is taken. Before being brainwashed by jebus, Samoa had a healthy resistance to European colonisation and a drive for independence. The NZ police force went postal on them in 1929 (Black Saturday). It took us until 2002 to formally apologise, and it still smarts for Samoans. Early NZ institutions were pretty fucking medieval, like small man's syndrome over the whole (white) country.

There is a treaty signed in 1962 between the two countries whereby NZ can get involved if asked, but I'm not so keen on sticking our nose in other's business without some very careful consideration.

Oh, okay, that makes sense. I was wondering why the public statements from Arden et al were very non-committal and "thoughts and prayers" to what seems to be a fairly open and shut bit of democracy abuse in a trading partner, but that history absolutely gives the context to make that make sense.

Puja

Yeah, our colonial history in Samoa is not great (like basically giving them the 1918 flu epidemic on purpose).

We should not be throwing our weight around here but certainly ought to join in any regional, multi-lateral response (unlikely, looking at Fiji). Probably the most useful thing we could do at the moment is make it clear that our Supreme Court and Court of Appeal judges are available to sit in the Samoan courts (which I believe is constitutionally permitted) to help sidestep the Caretaker PM's allegations of judicial bias against his party.

It's worth remembering at this point and on this Board that the Samoan Caretaker PM, who is denying the court-certified results of a democratic election, is also the President of the Samoa Rugby Union.

And in a massive coincidence, the President of the Fiji Rugby Union (since 2014) just happens to be military coup leader and later elected Prime Minister The Right Honourable Rear Admiral Frank Bainimarama CF (MIL), OSt.J., MSD, MP.

The Tonga Rugby Union, on the other hand, only last week voted out its President, Siaosi Pohiva MP and son of a former Prime Minister, to replace him with Pōhiva Tu’i’onetoa whose day job is...*checks notes*...Prime Minister of Tonga. To be fair, Tu’i’onetoa does not appear to have engaged in any insurrection (armed or otherwise) against a legitimately elected government.

What is the historic NZ link to Samoa? Was it like PNG being administered from Australia within the British colonial system?

We took it over as a protectorate from Ze Germans during WWI and, as Liz says, introduced influenza. This was the second infestation with the first being missionaries from the UK in the early 19th century. Samoa gained independence in 1962, and NZ is a part of a treaty made with Samoa that year that formalises close relationships between the two countries while explicitly stating that Samoa has a sovereign right to formulate its own foreign policy without interference from NZ. Itinerant Samoan workers regularly travelled to and worked in NZ but were pretty cynically targeted by the government of the day in the 70's during a period of economic gloom when oil was freaking out and the UK joined the EEC. Polynesian workers were made scapegoats to appease white voters and blamed for all manner of nonsense. Eventually a path to NZ citizenship was cleared on the back of activism, but the government did all they could to derail it and muddy the waters. The path to citizenship is very messy to this day.

In short, NZ have treated our Polynesian neighbours pretty shittily in the past.

Thanks, so like PNG a part of the German empire what was confiscated. I must read up on it.

Mr Mwenda wrote:Thanks, so like PNG a part of the German empire what was confiscated. I must read up on it.

Not confiscated - invaded and conquered, my boy! German Samoa was the very first sovereign German territory occupied by Allied forces in WWI.

Basically, a couple of minutes after the jolly British Empire declared war on the King's cousin, someone in the War Office asked NZ if it could kindly get some men to nip up to German Samoa and seize their wireless station and stop it directing the German Asian Fleet around. NZ eagerly dusted off plans it already had for the invasion of German Samoa, and mobilized 1400 men and 6 warships to go and sort out the Hun. The "opposing" forces were about 100 local militia who apparently didn't think much of the Germans anyway, plus a handful of Jerry officers and constabulary. There was no resistance so the troops were landed, they occupied Apia and then, in the absence of anything else to do and in the best British spirit of colonialism, they built a railway.

The German navy under Admiral von Spee did send some gun boats around a couple of weeks later, but they figured it wasn't worth the fight. In the absence of anything else to do and in the best German spirit of looking for a fight with the French, they then sailed off and completely flattened Papeete, the virtually undefended capital of Tahiti.

Sounds like an excellent excuse for a cup of tea.

Fiji looking right on the edge of sharp. Hard as forward effort melding with lethal backs. ABs got away with being slicker, but not by much.

morepork wrote:Fiji looking right on the edge of sharp. Hard as forward effort melding with lethal backs. ABs got away with being slicker, but not by much.

Yeah, for a while now Fiji has had by far the strongest player base of the Pacific Islands. Great over the ball, though they got penalised for it quite a bit today. If they could get them together more often, they'd be very very dangerous. Hopefully Super Rugby can be a gateway for that.

The problem is illustrated by how few caps some excellent players have.