Based on last season's form Ford played pretty well for England even if Leicester were a little sporadic in their delivery
Re: England training squad
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:25 pm
by FKAS
Puja wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:I assumed the Ford exclusion was nothing, maybe just wanted to let him get on with his job at Leicester. But this bit from Jones does make it sound more like he’s been dropped. As ever though - who really knows?
“We have left out some experienced players but we’re really clear that the door isn’t closed to them, and we’re looking forward to seeing them work hard to get back into contention.“
Not that it should really matter, but was Cockerill a Ford fan?
Cockerill became head coach in 2009 and was given the boot from Leicester in Jan 2017, so he was present for Ford's emergence and his first stint. I wouldn't say he was overly a fan - Ford was rotated with Flood and wasn't started in the big games - but it was early in Ford's career and it wasn't like he was averse to him. I know Ford leaving for Bath was not Cockerill's idea and, even if he didn't rate him at Leicester, he got a first hand view of Ford/Eastmond pumping Leicester without lubrication, twice in quick succession, so he knows he's good.
This feels like an Eddie move tbh. He wants to bring in Smith and he's never seen a point in having 3 front-line fly-halves in a training camp, so Smith in, Ford out (Faz, of course, being untouchable because of his intangible qualities). Based on last season's form, it's not a terrible shout (assuming we're accepting the false dichotomy of Ford or Smith), but I think it might be made to look somewhat silly if Ford keeps going as he's going.
Eddie, of course, will not change his mind, no matter how Ford plays. It's become a *thing* now.
Puja
In which case Tigers will benefit in the same way Quins did by having their quality flyhalf available all season. Added bonus we have Burns to rotate in occasionally to keep him in top shape.
Re: England training squad
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:33 pm
by Digby
If Ford is really done with England, and likely that isn't the case, he's going to start agitating to move to France (or maybe Japan)
Re: England training squad
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:36 pm
by Scottish Caley Fan
I am fairly certain that Fraser, Dingwall is going to be p***ed off at being snubbed again, that's a few times now, he only comes in as injury replacement so methinks he may end up doing a Cammy Redpath soon and change allegiance to us .
Pity Rodd keeps getting picked though lol but we can't poach every player .
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:13 am
by FKAS
Digby wrote:If Ford is really done with England, and likely that isn't the case, he's going to start agitating to move to France (or maybe Japan)
That was always likely to be the case after the next world cup anyway. If I was a betting man I'd bet Japan, fill the pockets but give the body a little rest then try for an NRL contract. See if he can make the England/GB team whatever it is for the next Rugby League World Cup in 2025. If he can't get into the NRL someone like Salford would take him in Super League. Then again Montpellier have been linked to Ford as a replacement for Pollard so who knows.
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:54 am
by Which Tyler
Meh, it's an early season training squad, for 1, unopposed mid-week session.
We've seen these before, I don't remember a single one that impacted future selection in the least.
I approve of the sessions, as it gives Eddie a chance to have a look at some new faces - but beyond having an actual conversation with them and seeing how they react to a new environment; I'm not going to go around reading anything into it.
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:58 am
by Scrumhead
Yep. Some odd selections, but in terms of importance and what it means for future squads, I’m fairly confident this is pretty insignificant.
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:59 am
by Mikey Brown
Puja wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:I assumed the Ford exclusion was nothing, maybe just wanted to let him get on with his job at Leicester. But this bit from Jones does make it sound more like he’s been dropped. As ever though - who really knows?
“We have left out some experienced players but we’re really clear that the door isn’t closed to them, and we’re looking forward to seeing them work hard to get back into contention.“
Not that it should really matter, but was Cockerill a Ford fan?
Cockerill became head coach in 2009 and was given the boot from Leicester in Jan 2017, so he was present for Ford's emergence and his first stint. I wouldn't say he was overly a fan - Ford was rotated with Flood and wasn't started in the big games - but it was early in Ford's career and it wasn't like he was averse to him. I know Ford leaving for Bath was not Cockerill's idea and, even if he didn't rate him at Leicester, he got a first hand view of Ford/Eastmond pumping Leicester without lubrication, twice in quick succession, so he knows he's good.
This feels like an Eddie move tbh. He wants to bring in Smith and he's never seen a point in having 3 front-line fly-halves in a training camp, so Smith in, Ford out (Faz, of course, being untouchable because of his intangible qualities). Based on last season's form, it's not a terrible shout (assuming we're accepting the false dichotomy of Ford or Smith), but I think it might be made to look somewhat silly if Ford keeps going as he's going.
Eddie, of course, will not change his mind, no matter how Ford plays. It's become a *thing* now.
Puja
Thanks for all that. Couldn’t really remember what the overlap was with those two. It’s such a shame Ford/Eastmond/Tuilagi never became what it could have been as a midfield.
I know Jones has always had this thing about 3rd choice players in certain positions being a waste of a squad space. It does make you wonder if he’s not viewing Faz as a 12 at all anymore? Is he banking everything on Manu staying fit and playing there regularly for Sale? I’m less worried about Ford being ditched entirely than just wondering how he views Farrell’s role.
I think Farrell has improved massively as a 12 and regressed as a fly-half. I don’t know if he views the options of Tuilagi v Faz at 12 as a plus - offering two different approaches - or a negative - requiring a rethink and a reshuffle of the midfield.
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:16 am
by Mikey Brown
A typically weird and defensive interview with EJ on the recent squad.
He certainly does make it seem like a big deal for those senior players to be excluded, but you feel like on a different day you'd have had a completely different set of answers.
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:18 am
by Puja
Mikey Brown wrote:Thanks for all that. Couldn’t really remember what the overlap was with those two. It’s such a shame Ford/Eastmond/Tuilagi never became what it could have been as a midfield.
I know Jones has always had this thing about 3rd choice players in certain positions being a waste of a squad space. It does make you wonder if he’s not viewing Faz as a 12 at all anymore? Is he banking everything on Manu staying fit and playing there regularly for Sale? I’m less worried about Ford being ditched entirely than just wondering how he views Farrell’s role.
I think Farrell has improved massively as a 12 and regressed as a fly-half. I don’t know if he views the options of Tuilagi v Faz at 12 as a plus - offering two different approaches - or a negative - requiring a rethink and a reshuffle of the midfield.
I thik Faz is actually an underrated option as a runner at 12. He's not small and he can hit a decent line at speed - not much footwork before contact, but he can make a dent. The interesting thing will be seeing where he plays for Saracens when he returns from his Lions break. It's no secret that Lozowski wants to play 10 and he's got a few weeks to try and lock that down. Added to that is the fact that, for the first time in Fazlet's career, Brad Barritt is not locking down the Saracens 12 shirt. I think there's a very real chance that Faz might play a lot of 12 for Saracens.
Puja
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:12 pm
by Puja
Here's a question - there was talk about Simmonds being exempt from the Lions rest period because he wasn't part of the EPS. Well, now he is. Does that affect things, do we think?
Puja
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:47 pm
by Scrumhead
I’d assume not
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:54 pm
by Puja
Scrumhead wrote:I’d assume not
No? The whole point of the EPS is that England get an input the players training, rest and recuperation, if they pick them. They've picked SSimmonds, so I'd assume they now get to enforce the rest period on him.
On the converse, does that mean Mako and George can come back sooner as they are no longer England players?
Puja
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:58 pm
by Stom
Puja wrote:
Scrumhead wrote:I’d assume not
No? The whole point of the EPS is that England get an input the players training, rest and recuperation, if they pick them. They've picked SSimmonds, so I'd assume they now get to enforce the rest period on him.
On the converse, does that mean Mako and George can come back sooner as they are no longer England players?
Puja
This isn't the EPS, though, is it?
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:11 pm
by Mikey Brown
Yeah I thought the EPS was smaller and EJ made a point that he'd never announce it? I can't imagine Ford & the Vunipolae would be omitted from that so quickly.
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:37 pm
by Spiffy
Puja wrote:
Mikey Brown wrote:Thanks for all that. Couldn’t really remember what the overlap was with those two. It’s such a shame Ford/Eastmond/Tuilagi never became what it could have been as a midfield.
I know Jones has always had this thing about 3rd choice players in certain positions being a waste of a squad space. It does make you wonder if he’s not viewing Faz as a 12 at all anymore? Is he banking everything on Manu staying fit and playing there regularly for Sale? I’m less worried about Ford being ditched entirely than just wondering how he views Farrell’s role.
I think Farrell has improved massively as a 12 and regressed as a fly-half. I don’t know if he views the options of Tuilagi v Faz at 12 as a plus - offering two different approaches - or a negative - requiring a rethink and a reshuffle of the midfield.
I thik Faz is actually an underrated option as a runner at 12. He's not small and he can hit a decent line at speed - not much footwork before contact, but he can make a dent. The interesting thing will be seeing where he plays for Saracens when he returns from his Lions break. It's no secret that Lozowski wants to play 10 and he's got a few weeks to try and lock that down. Added to that is the fact that, for the first time in Fazlet's career, Brad Barritt is not locking down the Saracens 12 shirt. I think there's a very real chance that Faz might play a lot of 12 for Saracens.
Puja
Faz? Speed? Eh? Don't think he is underrated as a runner at 12 at all. He is rated where he should be - not that good.
That said, he may play 12 at Sarries to accomodate Lozowski (as you suggest), a very good footballer with skills and gas, who looks to have benefited from his stint in France. Of the two, Loz looks the more naturally gifted player, though, to be fair, Faz has worked his nuts off to maximize his more limited talent.
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:38 pm
by Mikey Brown
Surely you see how what you just said is exactly the reason Puja used the word underrated? Nobody is picking him primarily for being a running threat, but at the very least he’s improved a lot in hitting the ball at full tilt when carrying.
That’s not the same as claiming he is rapid. But many faster, stronger players still struggle to take the ball at pace and carry hard.
Saying all that, it’s sort of baffling to still be hoping Farrell or Slade suddenly develop a strong enough carrying game to really break the line or at least suck in defenders.
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:35 pm
by Mr Mwenda
Frankly, I'm more disappointed in Slade's development than Farrell's.
Re: England training squad
Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:14 pm
by Which Tyler
Mr Mwenda wrote:Frankly, I'm more disappointed in Slade's development than Farrell's.
Absolutely.
My disappointment with Fax isnthat he got to do his development at international rather than club level.
My disappointment with Slade isnthat he's got all the skill in the world, but just doesn't show it at international level.
Re: England training squad
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:41 am
by TheNomad
Mr Mwenda wrote:Frankly, I'm more disappointed in Slade's development than Farrell's.
Fair comment - I wonder if the move to 13, which works well at club level, didn't do him favours at international level
Still think he'd have been a better 12 than 13 if he'd focused there
Re: England training squad
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:53 am
by Mikey Brown
Which Tyler wrote:
Mr Mwenda wrote:Frankly, I'm more disappointed in Slade's development than Farrell's.
Absolutely.
My disappointment with Fax isnthat he got to do his development at international rather than club level.
My disappointment with Slade isnthat he's got all the skill in the world, but just doesn't show it at international level.
That performance on Saturday was reminiscent of his early England caps too. Marcus Di Rollo-esque, not that I expect many to remember him.
Re: England training squad
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:54 am
by Digby
Mikey Brown wrote:
Saying all that, it’s sort of baffling to still be hoping Farrell or Slade suddenly develop a strong enough carrying game to really break the line or at least suck in defenders.
Which again highlights the England attack in the previous 6N as being of particular interest to England. They don't need them do much of either if we're going to replicate playing that fast, and we we can do that without exploding the error/penalty count. The attack system we had in the 6N would gain from their being able to make decisions and move the ball
And that again gets us back to what will the plan to attack be, does it change because we lost some games even if that wasn't down to the attack, does it change because the coaches have changed, does it change because there are some different players in the squad?
Re: England training squad
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:08 pm
by Freddo
What position does Lynagh play? I've seen a few reports saying he is a Winger/Fullback and others saying he is a Fly Half/Centre?
Re: England training squad
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:17 pm
by FKAS
Freddo wrote:What position does Lynagh play? I've seen a few reports saying he is a Winger/Fullback and others saying he is a Fly Half/Centre?
The older of the two brothers is the wing/fullback though he seems to be just playing wing for Quins. The younger brother who is already back in Australia having been brought up in the UK is the playmaker, think he joined the Reds last summer or this summer.
Re: England training squad
Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:48 pm
by TheNomad
Pleased for Lynagh, though I have some doubts about whether he’ll make it as an international regular for England
Nice, balanced runner, but neither big, nor with exceptional pace. I don’t think he has the potential of Radwan, for instance
.
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