Wasps v Bristol Sat 3pm

[Magic_sponge]

I thought Dickson did ok, but I also think your analysis of things FKAS is generally top drawer so won't fight that one.

Your point about Gopperth is what I wanted to comment on, indirectly. I just don't get the Umaga hype. BOD was waxing lyrical before the game, but I just don't see it. I actually think he did a few good things today, but surely if he wants to make it as a FH his kicking needs to improve considerably, and I don't think he's a 12?

[FKAS]

Umaga is always going to be hyped because his highlights reel will look awesome. He can create something from nothing. When he concentrates his kicking game can be good as well. In theory he has all the skills but I agree MS he's not consistent and there's always an error in there waiting to come out. Gopperth has the mentality Umaga doesn't but not the skillset. He's such a good foil for Umaga that I'm sure Wasps would like to deploy them more regularly but Gopperth is getting on a bit.

Umaga could be a good 12 but he'd need to change his mentality. He doesn't want to put his body on the line and engage physically. Shame, a more tactically astute flyhalf could then let him loose as and when the game suited it but then guide his pack around the park.

[Raggs]

Thought Dickson was fine, but my stream was far from perfect for chunks of the match.

Umaga's place kicking is like Ford's was when he was that age. Some games lands everything, others he struggles (though he's not had games quite as bad as Ford had early on). I really like his ball in hand skills though.

I think Umaga is willing to put his body in the way for defence, he's just not very good at using it effectively.

I suspect Wasps signed Mills to give Umaga a younger option similar to Gopperth.

He still fluctuates a lot, hot and cold, but he's still only 23.

[Beasties]

Good intensity from Wasps throughout, although maul defence still hasn't made it to the top of the workon sheet. Crossdale was v impressive.

[Mr Mwenda]

To be fair, Gopperth has had about 50 years to iron out his game.

[FKAS]

Thought Dickson was fine, but my stream was far from perfect for chunks of the match.

Umaga's place kicking is like Ford's was when he was that age. Some games lands everything, others he struggles (though he's not had games quite as bad as Ford had early on). I really like his ball in hand skills though.

I think Umaga is willing to put his body in the way for defence, he's just not very good at using it effectively.

I suspect Wasps signed Mills to give Umaga a younger option similar to Gopperth.

He still fluctuates a lot, hot and cold, but he's still only 23.

By 23 Ford had his kicking pretty much sorted. His teenage years it was like he'd fatigue whilst playing and miss the lot. I used to watch him at 16/17 playing for the Tigers A team and he was awesome right up until the tee came out. Persisted a little into his early twenties but he ironed it out. Having said that the bullet proof kicking of the last couple of seasons hasn't been evident this season. Don't know if that's because he spent the summer rehabbing a leg injury or not.

I thought Ryan Mills was a cracking signing for Wasps he's really had no luck whatsoever though. Hopefully he'll be back in a couple of months. Wasps having the Gopperth option off the bench to rescue the kicking and control elements is great for them. He'll be a real loss when he eventually opts to retire.

[I R Geech]

Thought Dickson was fine, but my stream was far from perfect for chunks of the match.

Umaga's place kicking is like Ford's was when he was that age. Some games lands everything, others he struggles (though he's not had games quite as bad as Ford had early on). I really like his ball in hand skills though.

I think Umaga is willing to put his body in the way for defence, he's just not very good at using it effectively.

I suspect Wasps signed Mills to give Umaga a younger option similar to Gopperth.

He still fluctuates a lot, hot and cold, but he's still only 23.

There was a period last season when Umaga was actively avoiding contact, especially in defence, and pulling out of anything 50:50. He seems to have got his head together more, but isn’t as good as the hype. Needs someone outside to bolster him, I’d quite like to see Atkinson at 12 rather ta vying for the 10 shirt - he’s got the skills and the physicality, and it’s not like England have a queue forming behind Faz.

[Raggs]

At 23 Ford was still absolutely having nightmares of games off the tee, there was a Wales game where he virtually missed everything I think. He was of course a long way ahead in his game management though (I do not think Umaga is better than Ford!). Umaga was being pushed into the 12 shirt for a long time though, so won't have had the game management experience Ford got (even then, Ford is special).

Thought Dickson was fine, but my stream was far from perfect for chunks of the match.

Umaga's place kicking is like Ford's was when he was that age. Some games lands everything, others he struggles (though he's not had games quite as bad as Ford had early on). I really like his ball in hand skills though.

I think Umaga is willing to put his body in the way for defence, he's just not very good at using it effectively.

I suspect Wasps signed Mills to give Umaga a younger option similar to Gopperth.

He still fluctuates a lot, hot and cold, but he's still only 23.

There was a period last season when Umaga was actively avoiding contact, especially in defence, and pulling out of anything 50:50. He seems to have got his head together more, but isn’t as good as the hype. Needs someone outside to bolster him, I’d quite like to see Atkinson at 12 rather ta vying for the 10 shirt - he’s got the skills and the physicality, and it’s not like England have a queue forming behind Faz.

I suspect he was injured/nursing something to be honest. He was getting in the way before that period, and since. He's just not very effective.

I agree about Atkinson at 12, definitely got the physicality and good skills for it. With Crossdale showing so well at fullback too, it may be in the minds of the coaching staff. Though that then leaves us short at 10 again.

[FKAS]

At 23 Ford was still absolutely having nightmares of games off the tee, there was a Wales game where he virtually missed everything I think. He was of course a long way ahead in his game management though (I do not think Umaga is better than Ford!). Umaga was being pushed into the 12 shirt for a long time though, so won't have had the game management experience Ford got (even then, Ford is special).

I'd forgotten about the warm up game where he created plenty of breaks but seemingly forgot how to kick a ball. He'd largely sorted out his kicking by that point as well. I remember him coming back to WR with Bath and the general consensus was we could probably chance ourselves at the breakdown more because Ford was a 60% kicker. I think he nailed all of them and Bath scraped a win.

Umaga played 10 through his academy days at Tigers, I'm not sure what happened when he had his spell over in NZ. I don't recall him playing 12 for the Wasps first team, though I could be wrong. He seems more of a Cipriani type player where he's always going to play heads up and chance a break before he is going to play percentages. Not necessarily a bad thing but it will limit his chances at international level.

[Raggs]

At 23 Ford was still absolutely having nightmares of games off the tee, there was a Wales game where he virtually missed everything I think. He was of course a long way ahead in his game management though (I do not think Umaga is better than Ford!). Umaga was being pushed into the 12 shirt for a long time though, so won't have had the game management experience Ford got (even then, Ford is special).

I'd forgotten about the warm up game where he created plenty of breaks but seemingly forgot how to kick a ball. He'd largely sorted out his kicking by that point as well. I remember him coming back to WR with Bath and the general consensus was we could probably chance ourselves at the breakdown more because Ford was a 60% kicker. I think he nailed all of them and Bath scraped a win.

Umaga played 10 through his academy days at Tigers, I'm not sure what happened when he had his spell over in NZ. I don't recall him playing 12 for the Wasps first team, though I could be wrong. He seems more of a Cipriani type player where he's always going to play heads up and chance a break before he is going to play percentages. Not necessarily a bad thing but it will limit his chances at international level.

At age grade he was used at 12 more often than not I believe, switching between 10 and 12 mostly. In NZ he was at fullback and a little at 12 I think.

[Beasties]

At 23 Ford was still absolutely having nightmares of games off the tee, there was a Wales game where he virtually missed everything I think. He was of course a long way ahead in his game management though (I do not think Umaga is better than Ford!). Umaga was being pushed into the 12 shirt for a long time though, so won't have had the game management experience Ford got (even then, Ford is special).

Thought Dickson was fine, but my stream was far from perfect for chunks of the match.

Umaga's place kicking is like Ford's was when he was that age. Some games lands everything, others he struggles (though he's not had games quite as bad as Ford had early on). I really like his ball in hand skills though.

I think Umaga is willing to put his body in the way for defence, he's just not very good at using it effectively.

I suspect Wasps signed Mills to give Umaga a younger option similar to Gopperth.

He still fluctuates a lot, hot and cold, but he's still only 23.

There was a period last season when Umaga was actively avoiding contact, especially in defence, and pulling out of anything 50:50. He seems to have got his head together more, but isn’t as good as the hype. Needs someone outside to bolster him, I’d quite like to see Atkinson at 12 rather ta vying for the 10 shirt - he’s got the skills and the physicality, and it’s not like England have a queue forming behind Faz.

I suspect he was injured/nursing something to be honest. He was getting in the way before that period, and since. He's just not very effective.

I agree about Atkinson at 12, definitely got the physicality and good skills for it. With Crossdale showing so well at fullback too, it may be in the minds of the coaching staff. Though that then leaves us short at 10 again.

I'd rather Atkinson concentrated on 10 as I think he's gonna be the better player eventually. It's a moot point at the moment though as he's out injured for a while as you know. Wasps ongoing injuries in the centre have made the pre-season plan irrelevant for the time being. Having seen Crossdale yest I'm not sure why anyone would want to move him anywhere but FB.

[Mikey Brown]

I feel like I’ve been hearing Crossdale’s name for years but never seen him until yesterday. Is he not considered a fullback by trade?

[FKAS]

At 23 Ford was still absolutely having nightmares of games off the tee, there was a Wales game where he virtually missed everything I think. He was of course a long way ahead in his game management though (I do not think Umaga is better than Ford!). Umaga was being pushed into the 12 shirt for a long time though, so won't have had the game management experience Ford got (even then, Ford is special).

I'd forgotten about the warm up game where he created plenty of breaks but seemingly forgot how to kick a ball. He'd largely sorted out his kicking by that point as well. I remember him coming back to WR with Bath and the general consensus was we could probably chance ourselves at the breakdown more because Ford was a 60% kicker. I think he nailed all of them and Bath scraped a win.

Umaga played 10 through his academy days at Tigers, I'm not sure what happened when he had his spell over in NZ. I don't recall him playing 12 for the Wasps first team, though I could be wrong. He seems more of a Cipriani type player where he's always going to play heads up and chance a break before he is going to play percentages. Not necessarily a bad thing but it will limit his chances at international level.

At age grade he was used at 12 more often than not I believe, switching between 10 and 12 mostly. In NZ he was at fullback and a little at 12 I think.

I wasn't a regular down the Tigers A League by that point so can't say for sure but when I saw him he was at 10. Hardwick got shifted to 12 in the academy set up though he was a year younger. They would switch round and play off each other. I can't recall Tigers having another flyhalf of note coming through at that time to necessitate him moving to 12 but could be wrong. Not sure about international age grade. After he moved to Wasps he may have played more at 12 because he opted for Wasps as opposed to the Tigers development contract and fair enough because the rumour at the time was Wasps would pay him as a senior player so they cash would have been a lot better (not big just bigger).

I'd be interested to see him at fullback given the way he can open a defence up. Bit of broken field and he'd be a menace.

[Scrumhead]

Anybody know how serious Thacker’s injury is?

[Raggs]

I wasn't a regular down the Tigers A League by that point so can't say for sure but when I saw him he was at 10. Hardwick got shifted to 12 in the academy set up though he was a year younger. They would switch round and play off each other. I can't recall Tigers having another flyhalf of note coming through at that time to necessitate him moving to 12 but could be wrong. Not sure about international age grade. After he moved to Wasps he may have played more at 12 because he opted for Wasps as opposed to the Tigers development contract and fair enough because the rumour at the time was Wasps would pay him as a senior player so they cash would have been a lot better (not big just bigger).

I'd be interested to see him at fullback given the way he can open a defence up. Bit of broken field and he'd be a menace.

I'd heard the money rumour, I also heard that there were 3 rather naughty academy players that Tigers preferred to move along, Umaga, Odogwu and one other (can't remember the name).

[FKAS]

I wasn't a regular down the Tigers A League by that point so can't say for sure but when I saw him he was at 10. Hardwick got shifted to 12 in the academy set up though he was a year younger. They would switch round and play off each other. I can't recall Tigers having another flyhalf of note coming through at that time to necessitate him moving to 12 but could be wrong. Not sure about international age grade. After he moved to Wasps he may have played more at 12 because he opted for Wasps as opposed to the Tigers development contract and fair enough because the rumour at the time was Wasps would pay him as a senior player so they cash would have been a lot better (not big just bigger).

I'd be interested to see him at fullback given the way he can open a defence up. Bit of broken field and he'd be a menace.

I'd heard the money rumour, I also heard that there were 3 rather naughty academy players that Tigers preferred to move along, Umaga, Odogwu and one other (can't remember the name).

That may well be true. The rumours don't make it sound like Tigers were trying to keep him does it. When Bath came after Ford, Cockerill publicly stated that Tigers would match any offer he received from elsewhere. There was none of that with Umaga.

Tigers were pretty traditional under Cockers. I guess not everyone is going to thrive in that type of environment, you have to have a certain type of mindset and personality. From what I've heard from various sources about Ford is that he's almost obsessive with his attention to detail. Umaga strikes me as a bit more play with a smile on your face, Cockers only smiled on the field when he was stamping on someone at the bottom of a ruck.

[Raggs]

I wasn't a regular down the Tigers A League by that point so can't say for sure but when I saw him he was at 10. Hardwick got shifted to 12 in the academy set up though he was a year younger. They would switch round and play off each other. I can't recall Tigers having another flyhalf of note coming through at that time to necessitate him moving to 12 but could be wrong. Not sure about international age grade. After he moved to Wasps he may have played more at 12 because he opted for Wasps as opposed to the Tigers development contract and fair enough because the rumour at the time was Wasps would pay him as a senior player so they cash would have been a lot better (not big just bigger).

I'd be interested to see him at fullback given the way he can open a defence up. Bit of broken field and he'd be a menace.

I'd heard the money rumour, I also heard that there were 3 rather naughty academy players that Tigers preferred to move along, Umaga, Odogwu and one other (can't remember the name).

That may well be true. The rumours don't make it sound like Tigers were trying to keep him does it. When Bath came after Ford, Cockerill publicly stated that Tigers would match any offer he received from elsewhere. There was none of that with Umaga.

Tigers were pretty traditional under Cockers. I guess not everyone is going to thrive in that type of environment, you have to have a certain type of mindset and personality. From what I've heard from various sources about Ford is that he's almost obsessive with his attention to detail. Umaga strikes me as a bit more play with a smile on your face, Cockers only smiled on the field when he was stamping on someone at the bottom of a ruck.

I think a lot of people were shocked where Odogwu was let go by tigers after he'd just exploded in the 7s for them. Makes me also think there could be something in it. Another play with a smile type you sense, an individual with their own sense of style etc. In fact I think the pair of them have started a fashion brand type thing.

[FKAS]

I'd heard the money rumour, I also heard that there were 3 rather naughty academy players that Tigers preferred to move along, Umaga, Odogwu and one other (can't remember the name).

That may well be true. The rumours don't make it sound like Tigers were trying to keep him does it. When Bath came after Ford, Cockerill publicly stated that Tigers would match any offer he received from elsewhere. There was none of that with Umaga.

Tigers were pretty traditional under Cockers. I guess not everyone is going to thrive in that type of environment, you have to have a certain type of mindset and personality. From what I've heard from various sources about Ford is that he's almost obsessive with his attention to detail. Umaga strikes me as a bit more play with a smile on your face, Cockers only smiled on the field when he was stamping on someone at the bottom of a ruck.

I think a lot of people were shocked where Odogwu was let go by tigers after he'd just exploded in the 7s for them. Makes me also think there could be something in it. Another play with a smile type you sense, an individual with their own sense of style etc. In fact I think the pair of them have started a fashion brand type thing.

We've tended to be awful in the sevens so I can't really remember him doing much for us in that. He sparkled in the Ayerza testimonial game at WR when Tigers played Argentina. A lot of Tigers fans were annoyed to see him leave for Sale so soon after that. Made worse when he was excellent in the sevens for Sale, against us and everybody else. To be fair he did little at Sale either.

We really didn't make the most of Odogwu or Lewington both of whom have had good Prem careers after leaving us.

[Raggs]

Just watching some highlights of Odogwu and I just don't understand how he runs so fast. It's not like Wade or Robinson (at least to me) in that his legs are going like the clappers, but at the same time, he really doesn't seem to have a long stride. Of course his legs are going fast, but he just seems to eat up the ground faster than he should.

[Puja]

That may well be true. The rumours don't make it sound like Tigers were trying to keep him does it. When Bath came after Ford, Cockerill publicly stated that Tigers would match any offer he received from elsewhere. There was none of that with Umaga.

Tigers were pretty traditional under Cockers. I guess not everyone is going to thrive in that type of environment, you have to have a certain type of mindset and personality. From what I've heard from various sources about Ford is that he's almost obsessive with his attention to detail. Umaga strikes me as a bit more play with a smile on your face, Cockers only smiled on the field when he was stamping on someone at the bottom of a ruck.

I think a lot of people were shocked where Odogwu was let go by tigers after he'd just exploded in the 7s for them. Makes me also think there could be something in it. Another play with a smile type you sense, an individual with their own sense of style etc. In fact I think the pair of them have started a fashion brand type thing.

We've tended to be awful in the sevens so I can't really remember him doing much for us in that. He sparkled in the Ayerza testimonial game at WR when Tigers played Argentina. A lot of Tigers fans were annoyed to see him leave for Sale so soon after that. Made worse when he was excellent in the sevens for Sale, against us and everybody else. To be fair he did little at Sale either.

We really didn't make the most of Odogwu or Lewington both of whom have had good Prem careers after leaving us.

Purdy too. The neglecting of both the academy and what few products it produced was the cause of our downfall.

Puja

[FKAS]

About four minutes in.



Sometimes I think smaller strides are better, more chance to change direction in full flight to a greater degree. If you have a particularly long stride then your end up with more of a swerve than a step.

Agree Puja, we preferred to pay journeymen more money for short periods as opposed to using the academy. Neglected the academy produced less and less. Until we revamped it and Murphy brought in the development pathway. Now we have Heyes, Chessum, Martin, Steward, JVP and Reffell all in the 23 Vs Glaws all from the academy and the oldest is 22/23. Makes recruitment a lot easier.

[jimKRFC]

Well the start of the season has validated my new approach to the game of doing stuff with the kids and only watching if it looks like a good game! Instead of watching I picked blackberries and apples and made a crumble - far more productive (and enjoyable).

This is were Lam has to now show he's worth the long deal, lots for Bristol to fix before the bath game!

[Peej]

The one bit of Prem coverage over the weekend that I wanted to see, and my BT box failed to record it. Standard. I hadn't given Wasps much hope, was expecting more of a backlash from Bears.

By all accounts Umaga put his body on the line a bit more than last season. I think the Mitchell effect is probably the cause. As for Gopperth, he continues to be reliable but he is having positive imapcts less and less. I think had Mills been fit he would long have taken the 12 shirt. With Fekitoa out now for 6-8 weeks (or maybe longer), Wasps are quite light at centre. May see the young guys, Spink and Simmons, get a run

[Raggs]

The one bit of Prem coverage over the weekend that I wanted to see, and my BT box failed to record it. Standard. I hadn't given Wasps much hope, was expecting more of a backlash from Bears.

By all accounts Umaga put his body on the line a bit more than last season. I think the Mitchell effect is probably the cause. As for Gopperth, he continues to be reliable but he is having positive imapcts less and less. I think had Mills been fit he would long have taken the 12 shirt. With Fekitoa out now for 6-8 weeks (or maybe longer), Wasps are quite light at centre. May see the young guys, Spink and Simmons, get a run

You can watch it (and all the games) on the premiership rugby website.

[Scrumhead]

Well the start of the season has validated my new approach to the game of doing stuff with the kids and only watching if it looks like a good game! Instead of watching I picked blackberries and apples and made a crumble - far more productive (and enjoyable).

This is were Lam has to now show he's worth the long deal, lots for Bristol to fix before the bath game!

Agreed.

I didn’t see the Wasps game so I can’t comment on round 2, but round 1 was very odd. Bristol only tried to play for 2 or 3 phases before kicking and I’d say it was more to do with it being the gameplan rather than Saracens doing anything to particularly force them into it.

I get the feeling that their defeats at the sharp end in the Premiership and Europe last season have made Lam question his own tactics and now we’re seeing them trying to change the gameplan without it being properly bedded-in (no preseason games) and without the players to execute it.

To me it looks more like Quins when Gustard was trying to impose a style that didn’t suit the players. They would be far better off going back to what they were good at.