Re: Worcester financial issues
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:23 pm
Wasps are also quite reliant on income from the convention centre so covid hit them doubly hard
It was, then there was a pandemic which killed that sort of event.Mellsblue wrote:I always thought the whole point of it was that the conference centre etc would subsidise the rugby.
There was a pandemic?!? Must’ve completely missed it.Raggs wrote:It was, then there was a pandemic which killed that sort of event.Mellsblue wrote:I always thought the whole point of it was that the conference centre etc would subsidise the rugby.
Any money being paid in regards to a lease from a sports club will be the back bone of the business. Conferences, weddings etc are the nice side earner, unlikely to pay for the entirety itself the match day crowds are worth a fair bit.Mellsblue wrote:There was a pandemic?!? Must’ve completely missed it.Raggs wrote:It was, then there was a pandemic which killed that sort of event.Mellsblue wrote:I always thought the whole point of it was that the conference centre etc would subsidise the rugby.
My point was in reference to Danny posting ‘The other events it holds are bonus revenue at best’.
Where have you found the info for your first paragraph?FKAS wrote:Any money being paid in regards to a lease from a sports club will be the back bone of the business. Conferences, weddings etc are the nice side earner, unlikely to pay for the entirety itself the match day crowds are worth a fair bit.Mellsblue wrote:There was a pandemic?!? Must’ve completely missed it.Raggs wrote:
It was, then there was a pandemic which killed that sort of event.
My point was in reference to Danny posting ‘The other events it holds are bonus revenue at best’.
Coventry City are back playing at the ground so there would be at least one lease being paid. I thought the idea of Wasps being there was that they weren't stuck making lease payments and not being able to keep any of the income.
Should that change it may come to a point where it's not sustainable for them to remain and once you've sold the place who cares what the new owners would prefer if they won't give you the deal you need.
Leases are guaranteed income, you work out your business model from there. The hotel may also be a lease rather than run internally to allow stability and remove admin. The side earners may be very lucrative but there's unlikely to be consistent levels of income from those so you make those your core business it adds an element of risk. You can't bank on there being a large number of 200+ weddings every year, when there are that's great and fill your boots, same with big conferences they tend to be annual so get in the ones you can but it's diversification of the core business.Mellsblue wrote:Where have you found the info for your first paragraph?FKAS wrote:Any money being paid in regards to a lease from a sports club will be the back bone of the business. Conferences, weddings etc are the nice side earner, unlikely to pay for the entirety itself the match day crowds are worth a fair bit.Mellsblue wrote: There was a pandemic?!? Must’ve completely missed it.
My point was in reference to Danny posting ‘The other events it holds are bonus revenue at best’.
Coventry City are back playing at the ground so there would be at least one lease being paid. I thought the idea of Wasps being there was that they weren't stuck making lease payments and not being able to keep any of the income.
Should that change it may come to a point where it's not sustainable for them to remain and once you've sold the place who cares what the new owners would prefer if they won't give you the deal you need.
It’s a massive venue: hotel, music concerts etc. From my understanding gleaned from articles when Wasps first moved, these income streams were meant to financially help the rugby operation. As the conference facilities at Sandy Park do.
I don’t know much about the economics of the relevant industries, but there are numerous profitable hotels, concert venues and conference facilities all over the country and very few profitable professional rugby clubs.
You still haven’t said where you found your info in your first para from your initial reply. There was plenty of info going around at the time of the deal that the leisure facilities at the stadium were meant to subsidise the rugby operation and there doesn’t seem to be any evidence to refute that.FKAS wrote:Leases are guaranteed income, you work out your business model from there. The hotel may also be a lease rather than run internally to allow stability and remove admin. The side earners may be very lucrative but there's unlikely to be consistent levels of income from those so you make those your core business it adds an element of risk. You can't bank on there being a large number of 200+ weddings every year, when there are that's great and fill your boots, same with big conferences they tend to be annual so get in the ones you can but it's diversification of the core business.Mellsblue wrote:Where have you found the info for your first paragraph?FKAS wrote:
Any money being paid in regards to a lease from a sports club will be the back bone of the business. Conferences, weddings etc are the nice side earner, unlikely to pay for the entirety itself the match day crowds are worth a fair bit.
Coventry City are back playing at the ground so there would be at least one lease being paid. I thought the idea of Wasps being there was that they weren't stuck making lease payments and not being able to keep any of the income.
Should that change it may come to a point where it's not sustainable for them to remain and once you've sold the place who cares what the new owners would prefer if they won't give you the deal you need.
It’s a massive venue: hotel, music concerts etc. From my understanding gleaned from articles when Wasps first moved, these income streams were meant to financially help the rugby operation. As the conference facilities at Sandy Park do.
I don’t know much about the economics of the relevant industries, but there are numerous profitable hotels, concert venues and conference facilities all over the country and very few profitable professional rugby clubs.
If you were buying the Ricoh or whatever it's called now you'd want to create a value and you'd do that by projecting what income can be received over a given period (discounted cash flows). If Wasps were selling they'd agree a lease period, Cov City have a lease period (8 year remaining I think) so you'd start to build that value you up from that income you know you will receive, subject to the financial capabilities of the tenants though you can get insurance to cover that. Same with the hotel if leased and the casino which I'm pretty sure is leased. It's unlikely any investment arm buying the place will actually want to run it so the more agreements in place which pay them rent without them doing anything is preferred and easier to assign value. The conference centre would be leased off to a management company as soon as possible rather than retained to generate in the way a number of clubs use their facilities to do so.
But yes you are right in that entertainment venues can be very lucrative when run correctly and not held during a pandemic.
Coventry City were unable to play their opening home game of the season as the pitch is in such a poor condition. This issue was raised with Wasps (who are responsible for the pitch) last season in the hope it would be fixed during the summer but no action was taken. Concerts & Commonwealth Games taking place in the arena have caused it to deteriorate apparently.FKAS wrote:Any money being paid in regards to a lease from a sports club will be the back bone of the business. Conferences, weddings etc are the nice side earner, unlikely to pay for the entirety itself the match day crowds are worth a fair bit.Mellsblue wrote:There was a pandemic?!? Must’ve completely missed it.Raggs wrote:
It was, then there was a pandemic which killed that sort of event.
My point was in reference to Danny posting ‘The other events it holds are bonus revenue at best’.
Coventry City are back playing at the ground so there would be at least one lease being paid. I thought the idea of Wasps being there was that they weren't stuck making lease payments and not being able to keep any of the income.
Should that change it may come to a point where it's not sustainable for them to remain and once you've sold the place who cares what the new owners would prefer if they won't give you the deal you need.
That is pretty shitty behaviour by Wasps. Granted, they are legally the owners and prime tenants, but the stadium was designed to be CCFC's home. The owners are a bunch of idiots who deserve everything they get, but their fans have every right to be fuming that Wasps have come in and bought out their home from under them (while the City owners were being idiots but that's not the fans' fault) and then not bothered to ensure it's suitable for them to use.FKAS wrote:https://www.ccfc.co.uk/news/2022/august ... postponed/
Pictures of the pitch there and it doesn't look good.
There's a picture of a tweet going around showing that the commonwealth games are basically responsible for the pitch until the 14th of August and it's repair, and a game shouldn't have been scheduled then regardless.Puja wrote:That is pretty shitty behaviour by Wasps. Granted, they are legally the owners and prime tenants, but the stadium was designed to be CCFC's home. The owners are a bunch of idiots who deserve everything they get, but their fans have every right to be fuming that Wasps have come in and bought out their home from under them (while the City owners were being idiots but that's not the fans' fault) and then not bothered to ensure it's suitable for them to use.FKAS wrote:https://www.ccfc.co.uk/news/2022/august ... postponed/
Pictures of the pitch there and it doesn't look good.
And, from a financial perspective, I can't imagine it's making them many friends and encouraging many cross-over fans from CCFC. Likely cost them more in the long run to be a lackadaisical landlord.
Puja
Bit of a worry cause these things can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The actual financial structure might be absolutely fine, but if the perception that they're broke gains traction, then it'll very rapidly become reality, whether it was true in the first place or not.Which Tyler wrote:I see there's also talk (speculation?) that Wasps financial issues are a bit too well known, so no company is willing to carry out the groundwork without full payment up front.
Very true. Could make a mess of their cashflow planning if their suppliers change terms to withdraw the credit period and invoice pro forma.Puja wrote:Bit of a worry cause these things can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The actual financial structure might be absolutely fine, but if the perception that they're broke gains traction, then it'll very rapidly become reality, whether it was true in the first place or not.Which Tyler wrote:I see there's also talk (speculation?) that Wasps financial issues are a bit too well known, so no company is willing to carry out the groundwork without full payment up front.
Puja
Done.Mr Mwenda wrote:On that note, perhaps Premiership financial issues is a better thread title...
Quadrophenia?Puja wrote:Done.Mr Mwenda wrote:On that note, perhaps Premiership financial issues is a better thread title...
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He won't reply he's off down Brighton Beach to have a scrap with some rockers.Banquo wrote:Quadrophenia?Puja wrote:Done.Mr Mwenda wrote:On that note, perhaps Premiership financial issues is a better thread title...
Mod
Which means what? Expelled from the league structure and build back up from the bottom?Danno wrote:Rumours among bondholders that Wasps will be proposing a CVA (a legally binding payment plan) soon. If that doesn't go through it'll be Administration
Shotgun for Alfie Barbeary!Which Tyler wrote:Which means what? Expelled from the league structure and build back up from the bottom?Danno wrote:Rumours among bondholders that Wasps will be proposing a CVA (a legally binding payment plan) soon. If that doesn't go through it'll be Administration
12 man premiership (a good thing - but is it too late to re-write the fixture list to avoid clubs having 4 fallow weekends?), and an entire club's worth of talent suddenly jobless, with no room in the salary cap for anyone to take them on?
Would that lead to an increase in the cap for everyone else? would that be allowing next year's increase (?) to come a year early, or "just" divide the £6.4M+ marquee by 12 to allow redistribution of talent? And how many cubs could afford to pay the wages of that extra, without having budgeted for it in advance (probably ruling out Worcester and Newcastle, maybe also LIrish, Sale and maybe anyone without a sugar daddy)?