World Cup Squad

[Scrumhead]

Yes I agree on everything you’ve said there. However, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the vast majority of the Ireland team trains and plays together on a regular basis at Leinster. That’s not meant to discredit Farrell Snr, but it surely helps in terms of a base level of high familiarity.

[Banquo]

Yes I agree on everything you’ve said there. However, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the vast majority of the Ireland team trains and plays together on a regular basis at Leinster. That’s not meant to discredit Farrell Snr, but it surely helps in terms of a base level of high familiarity.

aye, and it also highlights one of our systemic problems. If you looked at Tigers and Sarries, they play pretty similar games as a broad brush....but Quins and Saints next rung down certainly do not. And so on. Not to mention our player workloads are way higher I'd warrant.

[Spiffy]

I don't totally agree, I'm holding out hope that in the backline we can perm a better backline than hitherto; I think the pack fully fit will be pretty good on their day- there aren't any real plodders. The backs are a mess. Farrell A has shown what is possible with a bunch of intl class grafters and a couple of very good players

The backline could certainly improve, especially since the only way is up. But it's hard to have much optimism about that if the Smith/Faz axis continues, which it probably will. Agree about Ireland - their strength is that they have optimised the input of every player to reach a level of coordinated team play that is greater than the sum of the parts, while leaving room for outstanding individual efforts from players like Sexton, Henshaw, Beirne and VDF.

Faz and Smith just doesn't look like a good pairing to me. I hope Faz is abandoned as a player, for all his workrate, medium quality goalkicking and aggression- his return as an inside centre over three tests (albeit we kicked quite a lot, and didn't have a ton of possession in the third test) 29 passes, 4 carries for 6 yards , a fair few average kicks, 29 tackles made 6 missed, 3 turnovers and 1 penalty conceded.
Just absorb that yardage alone- 4 carries, 6 yards in three tests as an inside centre. The vast majority of passes (18) were in the first test when he played a lot as first receiver, when we were running those complex planned phases....which we completely abandoned (maybe hiding them for next year ). Kerevi carried 42 times for 145 yards, and kicked a bit too; I know we played in a very different way, but surely we can do a bit better...

Out of JVP, Quirke, Ford, Smith, Slade, Marchant, Dingwall, Tuilagi, May, Watson, Freeman, (Nowell), Joe C, Daly, Arundell, Steward plus some others I have overlooked, you must be able to do something better than we appear to be able to atm. Obviously a big if in there

and yes, adding Ryan to that list, and Furlong at his best, done a great job. And of course POM, who doesn't obviously look world class, but actually is at the jobs he is given. Brilliant team work.

Yes. You have listed some decent players there and many just need game time. England can obviously do much better. No matter how much you dissect it, the major problem is Eddie Jones. He simply cannot decide on tactics or game plan or selection, is all over the place from one game to the next, and just can't get away from the notion that Faz must be fulcrum of all the team does.
An unimpressive third test win over a duff Australia may have saved his bacon for a while but has not advanced the quality of England's play.

[francoisfou]

I don't totally agree, I'm holding out hope that in the backline we can perm a better backline than hitherto; I think the pack fully fit will be pretty good on their day- there aren't any real plodders. The backs are a mess. Farrell A has shown what is possible with a bunch of intl class grafters and a couple of very good players

The backline could certainly improve, especially since the only way is up. But it's hard to have much optimism about that if the Smith/Faz axis continues, which it probably will. Agree about Ireland - their strength is that they have optimised the input of every player to reach a level of coordinated team play that is greater than the sum of the parts, while leaving room for outstanding individual efforts from players like Sexton, Henshaw, Beirne and VDF.

Faz and Smith just doesn't look like a good pairing to me. I hope Faz is abandoned as a player, for all his workrate, medium quality goalkicking and aggression- his return as an inside centre over three tests (albeit we kicked quite a lot, and didn't have a ton of possession in the third test) 29 passes, 4 carries for 6 yards , a fair few average kicks, 29 tackles made 6 missed, 3 turnovers and 1 penalty conceded.
Just absorb that yardage alone- 4 carries, 6 yards in three tests as an inside centre. The vast majority of passes (18) were in the first test when he played a lot as first receiver, when we were running those complex planned phases....which we completely abandoned (maybe hiding them for next year ). Kerevi carried 42 times for 145 yards, and kicked a bit too; I know we played in a very different way, but surely we can do a bit better...

Out of JVP, Quirke, Ford, Smith, Slade, Marchant, Dingwall, Tuilagi, May, Watson, Freeman, (Nowell), Joe C, Daly, Arundell, Steward plus some others I have overlooked, you must be able to do something better than we appear to be able to atm. Obviously a big if in there

and yes, adding Ryan to that list, and Furlong at his best, done a great job. And of course POM, who doesn't obviously look world class, but actually is at the jobs he is given. Brilliant team work.

Damning statistics regarding Farrell, which of course will be totally disregarded by Eddie. Shame, innit? I also think Ted Hill merits consideration (maybe he has and has been shelved by Eddie), and Zach Mercer’s name must already be inked in.

[Banquo]

The backline could certainly improve, especially since the only way is up. But it's hard to have much optimism about that if the Smith/Faz axis continues, which it probably will. Agree about Ireland - their strength is that they have optimised the input of every player to reach a level of coordinated team play that is greater than the sum of the parts, while leaving room for outstanding individual efforts from players like Sexton, Henshaw, Beirne and VDF.

Faz and Smith just doesn't look like a good pairing to me. I hope Faz is abandoned as a player, for all his workrate, medium quality goalkicking and aggression- his return as an inside centre over three tests (albeit we kicked quite a lot, and didn't have a ton of possession in the third test) 29 passes, 4 carries for 6 yards , a fair few average kicks, 29 tackles made 6 missed, 3 turnovers and 1 penalty conceded.
Just absorb that yardage alone- 4 carries, 6 yards in three tests as an inside centre. The vast majority of passes (18) were in the first test when he played a lot as first receiver, when we were running those complex planned phases....which we completely abandoned (maybe hiding them for next year ). Kerevi carried 42 times for 145 yards, and kicked a bit too; I know we played in a very different way, but surely we can do a bit better...

Out of JVP, Quirke, Ford, Smith, Slade, Marchant, Dingwall, Tuilagi, May, Watson, Freeman, (Nowell), Joe C, Daly, Arundell, Steward plus some others I have overlooked, you must be able to do something better than we appear to be able to atm. Obviously a big if in there

and yes, adding Ryan to that list, and Furlong at his best, done a great job. And of course POM, who doesn't obviously look world class, but actually is at the jobs he is given. Brilliant team work.

Damning statistics regarding Farrell, which of course will be totally disregarded by Eddie. Shame, innit? I also think Ted Hill merits consideration (maybe he has and has been shelved by Eddie), and Zach Mercer’s name must already be inked in.

Mercer I suspect has a lot to do to get on Eddies list!

[francoisfou]

Faz and Smith just doesn't look like a good pairing to me. I hope Faz is abandoned as a player, for all his workrate, medium quality goalkicking and aggression- his return as an inside centre over three tests (albeit we kicked quite a lot, and didn't have a ton of possession in the third test) 29 passes, 4 carries for 6 yards , a fair few average kicks, 29 tackles made 6 missed, 3 turnovers and 1 penalty conceded.
Just absorb that yardage alone- 4 carries, 6 yards in three tests as an inside centre. The vast majority of passes (18) were in the first test when he played a lot as first receiver, when we were running those complex planned phases....which we completely abandoned (maybe hiding them for next year ). Kerevi carried 42 times for 145 yards, and kicked a bit too; I know we played in a very different way, but surely we can do a bit better...

Out of JVP, Quirke, Ford, Smith, Slade, Marchant, Dingwall, Tuilagi, May, Watson, Freeman, (Nowell), Joe C, Daly, Arundell, Steward plus some others I have overlooked, you must be able to do something better than we appear to be able to atm. Obviously a big if in there

and yes, adding Ryan to that list, and Furlong at his best, done a great job. And of course POM, who doesn't obviously look world class, but actually is at the jobs he is given. Brilliant team work.

Damning statistics regarding Farrell, which of course will be totally disregarded by Eddie. Shame, innit? I also think Ted Hill merits consideration (maybe he has and has been shelved by Eddie), and Zach Mercer’s name must already be inked in.

Mercer I suspect has a lot to do to get on Eddies list!

Hmm. I suspect he’s already on it, and if the Top14’s player of last season replicates his form next season then whatever doubts you may have, should disappear. The only question to be answered regarding Mercer will be, which club will he join?

[Banquo]

Damning statistics regarding Farrell, which of course will be totally disregarded by Eddie. Shame, innit? I also think Ted Hill merits consideration (maybe he has and has been shelved by Eddie), and Zach Mercer’s name must already be inked in.

Mercer I suspect has a lot to do to get on Eddies list!

Hmm. I suspect he’s already on it, and if the Top14’s player of last season replicates his form next season then whatever doubts you may have, should disappear. The only question to be answered regarding Mercer will be, which club will he join?

Not my doubts, just Eddie doesn’t turn often once a player is given the flick

[francoisfou]

Mercer I suspect has a lot to do to get on Eddies list!

Hmm. I suspect he’s already on it, and if the Top14’s player of last season replicates his form next season then whatever doubts you may have, should disappear. The only question to be answered regarding Mercer will be, which club will he join?

Not my doubts, just Eddie doesn’t turn often once a player is given the flick

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Eddie go to Montpellier to renew contact with him?

[Banquo]

The backline could certainly improve, especially since the only way is up. But it's hard to have much optimism about that if the Smith/Faz axis continues, which it probably will. Agree about Ireland - their strength is that they have optimised the input of every player to reach a level of coordinated team play that is greater than the sum of the parts, while leaving room for outstanding individual efforts from players like Sexton, Henshaw, Beirne and VDF.

Faz and Smith just doesn't look like a good pairing to me. I hope Faz is abandoned as a player, for all his workrate, medium quality goalkicking and aggression- his return as an inside centre over three tests (albeit we kicked quite a lot, and didn't have a ton of possession in the third test) 29 passes, 4 carries for 6 yards , a fair few average kicks, 29 tackles made 6 missed, 3 turnovers and 1 penalty conceded.
Just absorb that yardage alone- 4 carries, 6 yards in three tests as an inside centre. The vast majority of passes (18) were in the first test when he played a lot as first receiver, when we were running those complex planned phases....which we completely abandoned (maybe hiding them for next year ). Kerevi carried 42 times for 145 yards, and kicked a bit too; I know we played in a very different way, but surely we can do a bit better...

Out of JVP, Quirke, Ford, Smith, Slade, Marchant, Dingwall, Tuilagi, May, Watson, Freeman, (Nowell), Joe C, Daly, Arundell, Steward plus some others I have overlooked, you must be able to do something better than we appear to be able to atm. Obviously a big if in there

and yes, adding Ryan to that list, and Furlong at his best, done a great job. And of course POM, who doesn't obviously look world class, but actually is at the jobs he is given. Brilliant team work.

Yes. You have listed some decent players there and many just need game time. England can obviously do much better. No matter how much you dissect it, the major problem is Eddie Jones. He simply cannot decide on tactics or game plan or selection, is all over the place from one game to the next, and just can't get away from the notion that Faz must be fulcrum of all the team does.
An unimpressive third test win over a duff Australia may have saved his bacon for a while but has not advanced the quality of England's play.

He has a very dogmatic view of English rugby- which you share to some extent- in that he sees its strengths as set piece, physicality and dog, and doesn't think we produce enough players of skill with enough rugby nous to play what is called an all court game without prescribed structures. This path was heavily de-railed by being rogered by SA physically in the 2019 final and since then he has played around with a fair few different approaches- see all three tests v Australia, though game 2 and 3 were more similar. I'll credit him with trying to find a style, and struggling a bit with quality of players, esp backs; but by hitching his wagon to faz'n'manu we are in a cul de sac.
I also think his rotation of coaches by policy isn't a great idea, and he could do with getting a proper backs coach.

[Banquo]

Hmm. I suspect he’s already on it, and if the Top14’s player of last season replicates his form next season then whatever doubts you may have, should disappear. The only question to be answered regarding Mercer will be, which club will he join?

Not my doubts, just Eddie doesn’t turn often once a player is given the flick

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Eddie go to Montpellier to renew contact with him?

No idea. My mate is the manager there so could ask him

[francoisfou]

Not my doubts, just Eddie doesn’t turn often once a player is given the flick

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Eddie go to Montpellier to renew contact with him?

No idea. My mate is the manager there so could ask him

PSA? Not on close enough terms with him!

[Banquo]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Eddie go to Montpellier to renew contact with him?

No idea. My mate is the manager there so could ask him

PSA? Not on close enough terms with him!

Tom Whitford.

[Which Tyler]

Not my doubts, just Eddie doesn’t turn often once a player is given the flick

Except for Ford, Mako, Billy, Care, Iseikwe etc.

We covered this before - Eddie doesn't change his mind on players... except for the large number of players he's changed his mind on...

[Mellsblue]

Ford came back as injury cover. Mako back when on form, as Eddie said would happen*, and no Marler. Billy back only when on form, as Eddie said would happen**, and Simmonds and Dombrandt injured. Isiekwe back but behind a very raw Chessum, dropped for Ewelsy in the 6N, with Lawes moving to 6 and Launch injured. Care back when there are no other senior scrumhalves, Randall soiled the bed in the 6N and is now undoubtedly exiled again.

* “They're all good players. When they are at their best, they are going to be in strong contention.”

** “They probably haven't been at their best over the last period of time, so we are giving them the opportunity to find their best”

[Oakboy]

I suppose the best thing about this thread is that nobody wants Ewels. That means Jones will pick him.

[Banquo]

Not my doubts, just Eddie doesn’t turn often once a player is given the flick

Except for Ford, Mako, Billy, Care, Iseikwe etc.

We covered this before - Eddie doesn't change his mind on players... except for the large number of players he's changed his mind on...

well he gave a sh5t load of caps to billy, ford mako and care pre flick. The list of recalled a couple of cap wonders is a lot shorter than those recalled.

[Scrumhead]

I suppose the best thing about this thread is that nobody wants Ewels. That means Jones will pick him.

Ewels’ knee injury sounds serious enough to keep him out for 9mths+. That’s just about enough time for him to come back from injury and make the World Cup squad, but it’s also a decent amount of time for rivals like Chessum and Isiekwe to establish themselves in his place. Both have made a decent start at that and as long as they stay injury free, they should have opportunities in the AIs and 6N to build upon that.

He might still get picked, but I’d say the odds are against him.

[pandion]

I'm still not convinced at 8. I'd actually like to see Ted Hill play a season there as he's not got the highlight reel of the others but he's very solid all round and gets through a lot of work. He's also hard and very durable.

I hope Sink can have a good season with Genge, I don't think he's been on form for a while now.

[pandion]

I suppose the best thing about this thread is that nobody wants Ewels. That means Jones will pick him.

Ewels’ knee injury sounds serious enough to keep him out for 9mths+. That’s just about enough time for him to come back from injury and make the World Cup squad, but it’s also a decent amount of time for rivals like Chessum and Isiekwe to establish themselves in his place. Both have made a decent start at that and as long as they stay injury free, they should have opportunities in the AIs and 6N to build upon that.

He might still get picked, but I’d say the odds are against him.

I think Isiekwe could end up a 6 in the lawes mold. We definitely need a lineout option there with our 7-8 options.

[Scrumhead]

IMO, he’s a good, mobile lock with the potential to be very good. At 6 he’s good, but I’m not sure there’s quite as much room for improvement.

Either way, he needs to focus on one position. Switching between the two doesn’t really do him any favours.

[32nd Man]

I hope Sink can have a good season with Genge, I don't think he's been on form for a while now.

I think he was the player who suffered most from not getting any rest post Lions. Hopefully with a summer off he'll be back to his best.

[FKAS]

I hope Sink can have a good season with Genge, I don't think he's been on form for a while now.

I think he was the player who suffered most from not getting any rest post Lions. Hopefully with a summer off he'll be back to his best.

Has he ever shown his best form since moving to Bristol? Honest question I'm struggling to remember.

[Puja]

I hope Sink can have a good season with Genge, I don't think he's been on form for a while now.

I think he was the player who suffered most from not getting any rest post Lions. Hopefully with a summer off he'll be back to his best.

Has he ever shown his best form since moving to Bristol? Honest question I'm struggling to remember.

He had a good burst of form shortly after failing to make the cut for the Lions (leading to him getting recalled when injury happened), but aside from that, no not really.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Sinckler wasn’t great in his last season for Quins either TBH. He definitely seemed to turn it on a lot more for England.

Some of that may come from a lack of strong competition. He’s kind of been first choice by default rather than because he’s genuinely deserved it.

I was pleased to see Stuart have a good tour (in spite of the clueless media ratings), but unless he kicks on from that, he’s just shown he’s capable of being a decent starter without really turning the heat up on Sinckler. If the two of them were really fighting hard for the shirt, it might spur them on to a higher level of performance. Hopefully Stuart sees this as opportunity to keep the shirt and Sinckler sees it as his to get back.

[Puja]

Sinckler wasn’t great in his last season for Quins either TBH. He definitely seemed to turn it on a lot more for England.

Some of that may come from a lack of strong competition. He’s kind of been first choice by default rather than because he’s genuinely deserved it.

I was pleased to see Stuart have a good tour (in spite of the clueless media ratings), but unless he kicks on from that, he’s just shown he’s capable of being a decent starter without really turning the heat up on Sinckler. If the two of them were really fighting hard for the shirt, it might spur them on to a higher level of performance. Hopefully Stuart sees this as opportunity to keep the shirt and Sinckler sees it as his to get back.

Frankly, I'd be picking Stuart as the starting 3 for England unless Sinckler shows form that makes him undroppable. If that makes him angry and we get 2018!Sinckler back again, great. If he can't bring it back, he's a more dynamic option off the bench.

Puja