RugbyRebels

Ludlow takes a sizeable chunk of our lineout throws

Puja wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Really? Hard to picture him in any role other than route 1 primary carrier, especially jumping, but fair enough.

Very much a Samu Manoa type lock - still there to bash people about the park and mostly lift, rather than jump, in the lineout, just putting some weight behind the tighthead instead of on the flank.

Puja

That may all be true, but when was the last time Tuisue played lock? I don’t think he ever started there for Irish did he?

Internationally he's played a bit of lock but not for Irish.

jimKRFC wrote:Bristol squad.
Hooker: Byrne, Capon, Davies, Kerr, Thacker
Props: Armstrong, J Benz-Salomon, T Benz-Salomon, Charalambous, Genge, Kloska, Lahiff, Mulhall, Sinckler, Thomas, Woolmore,
Locks: Eames, Hawkins, Holmes, Joyce, Vui,
Back row: Bradbury, Heenan, Harding, Jeff Reece, Luatua, Thomas
9s: Lennon, Randall, Uren, Whiteley
10: MacGinty, Sheedy, Wilstead, Williams
Centres: Ascherl, Bedlow, Lloyd, O'Conor, Radradra
Wing: Bates, Fricker, Ibitoye, Morahan, Naulago, Purdy
15: Lane, Piutau

Squad: 49
Eqp: 36 (73%)
Wales 5
Scot 2
Ire 1
Sam 1
NZ 1
Aus 1
Fiji 1
Tonga 1

Light at lock, but gives Rice a chance to step up and few of the back rows can cover as well. Same at full back, but a few wings can cover and should give Bailey a chance to get some first team games.

You also have an American in there with MacGinty, unless you've classified him as Irish?



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BenHK wrote: You also have an American in there with MacGinty, unless you've classified him as Irish?

Well spotted - I missed him off my list other nationalities! Fixed it now...

FKAS wrote:Internationally he's played a bit of lock but not for Irish.

OK fair enough. I just wouldn’t have looked at a player who has played virtually all of his club rugby at 8 and assume Gloucester had signed him as a lock.

Scrumhead wrote:

FKAS wrote:Internationally he's played a bit of lock but not for Irish.

OK fair enough. I just wouldn’t have looked at a player who has played virtually all of his club rugby at 8 and assume Gloucester had signed him as a lock.

It's entirely possible you're right, as he has been predominantly an 8 for Irish (have seen him at lock a few times, but no more than a handful). Just trying to make sense of Glaws signing yet another 8 when they're already very well stocked and have no locks whatsoever.

Puja

I kind of assumed Tuisue was being signed because Polledri might not have looked like he was going to make it back. I hope that isn’t the case and it’s definitely encouraging to hear Polledri is involved in preseason training.

Skivs knows Tuisue I am led to believe, and did state when he was signed that he was brought in to be both lock and 8. It is equally encouraging and worrying that there is very little coming out of the club about Jake, there is footage of him taking part in preseason, and his insta stories are positive. I am hopeful.

Just hearing Jake Polledri has been given a 1 year contract by Glos to start with. Very happy about this.

Confirmed

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62335487

Gloskarlos wrote:Just hearing Jake Polledri has been given a 1 year contract by Glos to start with. Very happy about this.

twitchy wrote:

Is it selfish to hope that Eddie keeps ignoring Ford, and that Hill finally manages to find something daft enough that he'll actually get dropped?

32nd Man wrote:

twitchy wrote:

Is it selfish to hope that Eddie keeps ignoring Ford, and that Hill finally manages to find something daft enough that he'll actually get dropped?

Ford won't be back until end of December. Doesn't give him long to be fit and firing before the 6N. His selection for the 6N may depend on whether Smith clicks on the international stage or not.

Puja wrote:

SDHoneymonster wrote:

Puja wrote:
I think Borthwick wants it badly - if he can lead Leicester to another successful season in 2022-23 (not even necessarily winning, but reaching the semis of both competitions at minimum), then I think he'll walk into the role.

Puja

He would be the more widely proven candidate certainly, having already worked internationally, while we've only got Robertson's Super Rugby CV to go with, and that's definitely not the standard of competition it was even as little as three years ago. I just don't really enjoy the idea of England playing like Leicester in truth, although I suspect I'd get over that if it came with a cast iron guarantee of winning the world cup from the rugby gods themselves. The Crusaders revel in the basics of the game - having a strong set piece, hard graft and clever kicking, like Leicester - but they ally it to the ability to carve sides open much more regularly.

I don't think you can say Borthwick's England would play like 21-22 Leicester - that playing style was the result of him being just into his second year of a complete rebuild from absolute scratch, including a near total overhaul of the playing squad (and that first year being without a real attack coach, due to Taylor having to return to NZ). I think Borthwick loves a solid basis - defence, lineout, scrums, attacking plays off set pieces, and then builds an attack on top of it. I expect Leicester to be more ambitious this season coming (and be a better team for it), and his putative England would probably be the same, depending on the attack coach that he got.

Puja

Think this season will be interesting for them personally - the title obviously was no fluke as they were top of the table virtually all season, but I think it's also fair to say it came a lot earlier in the side's development than many expected, including I suspect Borthwick himself. That itself carries a different sort of pressure than even just winning a title does, especially now having lost Ford and having such a young core of players; it's going to be very, very difficult to back it up. If they do manage it then yeah I suspect the job is Borthwick's to lose. I do wonder whether the conversations between Jones and Robertson had anything to do with getting Robertson on board for the England world cup coaching ticket mind - maybe a consultancy style role, like Jones had himself in 2007 with South Africa, and that would give him one foot in the door.

Yeah. I had the same thoughts re. Robertson.

I also agree on your @sdhoneymonster’s assessment of Tigers going in to this season. Ford and Genge leave some very big shoes to fill and while Pollard and Cronin are good replacements, they’re definitely quite different players to their predecessors.

That said, Tigers aren’t massively impacted by test call ups and will be able to field a stronger side than most in the first few rounds. If they build momentum, the likes of Pollard and Wiese coming in to the mix after the Rugby Championship should help them to keep that going. Unless Bristol come back strongly, I don’t expect a massively different league table to last season.

SDHoneymonster wrote:

Puja wrote:

SDHoneymonster wrote:
He would be the more widely proven candidate certainly, having already worked internationally, while we've only got Robertson's Super Rugby CV to go with, and that's definitely not the standard of competition it was even as little as three years ago. I just don't really enjoy the idea of England playing like Leicester in truth, although I suspect I'd get over that if it came with a cast iron guarantee of winning the world cup from the rugby gods themselves. The Crusaders revel in the basics of the game - having a strong set piece, hard graft and clever kicking, like Leicester - but they ally it to the ability to carve sides open much more regularly.

I don't think you can say Borthwick's England would play like 21-22 Leicester - that playing style was the result of him being just into his second year of a complete rebuild from absolute scratch, including a near total overhaul of the playing squad (and that first year being without a real attack coach, due to Taylor having to return to NZ). I think Borthwick loves a solid basis - defence, lineout, scrums, attacking plays off set pieces, and then builds an attack on top of it. I expect Leicester to be more ambitious this season coming (and be a better team for it), and his putative England would probably be the same, depending on the attack coach that he got.

Puja

Think this season will be interesting for them personally - the title obviously was no fluke as they were top of the table virtually all season, but I think it's also fair to say it came a lot earlier in the side's development than many expected, including I suspect Borthwick himself. That itself carries a different sort of pressure than even just winning a title does, especially now having lost Ford and having such a young core of players; it's going to be very, very difficult to back it up. If they do manage it then yeah I suspect the job is Borthwick's to lose. I do wonder whether the conversations between Jones and Robertson had anything to do with getting Robertson on board for the England world cup coaching ticket mind - maybe a consultancy style role, like Jones had himself in 2007 with South Africa, and that would give him one foot in the door.

I am hoping for a more refined attack structure this season, we did lack a bit of a cutting edge at times and somewhat unexpectedly it was when Kelly was out the attack really suffered. He's back fit and we've strengthened the options at 12 before next season which might help alleviate the pressure on Kelly to play quite so often.

Given the resource to sign a high profile attack coach I'm sure Borthwick would search for more but I agree with Puja he's pragmatism first and would want any team of his to have a solid set piece, defence and tactical game first. Once the basics are in place then he'll build from there which is what he's been doing at Tigers.

Borthwick will have to find something different with Genge not being there next season. Genge then Weise was a really good 1-2 carrying combination. Created a lot of space out wide for the backs to cause carnage in, first half of the season a lot of the attack revolved around trying to get a Nadolo one on one on the outside. Pollard for Ford is less of a concern.

The young spine is definitely there but for each youngster Borthwick has ensured there's a veteran as back up with recent recruitment. The issue will be getting all the young guys new deals.

Yep. With no Wiese for the first portion of the season and Genge gone, I’d imagine Liebenberg and Martin will have an increased amount of carrying to do.

Scrumhead wrote:Yep. With no Wiese for the first portion of the season and Genge gone, I’d imagine Liebenberg and Martin will have an increased amount of carrying to do.

Very much so, especially on the first couple of games whilst Chessum isn't available as well. He's the go to carrying option at lock though Cam Henderson is good in that area and should finally be back in regular contention. If Reffell has the first two weeks off we might see Cracknell go into the backrow and just go with brute force. Ilione and Jansen might also come in as extra backrow carriers but with Montoya with the Pumas as well it's the front row where we'll suddenly be bereft of carriers for most the game (Leatigaga struggles to play more than 25mins).

Perhaps we'll see a different attacking play given we should have Kelly, Nadolo, Murimurivalu and Saumaki all available from day one. Might require a change in tactics but it would catch Chiefs by surprise in game week 1.

Will Tigers rest Reffell though? AFAIK, they’re only obligated to rest the England players.

Either way, I agree with you and I could easily see a ‘brute force’ back row with Martin and Cracknell or Ilione on the flanks with Liebenberg at 8. It would be good to see Ilione getting some more game time this season anyway.

Tigers actually have a pretty gnarly start - Chiefs (A), Falcons (H), Saints (A), Saracens (A), Sharks (H) is a tough set of fixtures.

**@Puja his thread has morphed in to something different to Transfer News. Is it worth moving the last page or so to the 2022/23 Squads thread?**

Scrumhead wrote:Will Tigers rest Reffell though? AFAIK, they’re only obligated to rest the England players.

Either way, I agree with you and I could easily see a ‘brute force’ back row with Martin and Cracknell or Ilione on the flanks with Liebenberg at 8. It would be good to see Ilione getting some more game time this season anyway.

Tigers actually have a pretty gnarly start - Chiefs (A), Falcons (H), Saints (A), Saracens (A), Sharks (H) is a tough set of fixtures.

**@Puja his thread has morphed in to something different to Transfer News. Is it worth moving the last page or so to the 2022/23 Squads thread?**

Yeah it's a tough start but most the games in the Prem are tough so it is what it is.

Playing Chiefs whilst they are trying to find their rhythm with a new squad and Falcons isn't as bad as it could be I suppose. We should get the full England contingent back for the Saints game which is generally considered the most important game(s) in both club's normal season.

Reffell will probably be rested, no point prioritising games 1 and 2, when we need to keep him fit for as much of the season as possible. Ilione offers a breakdown threat so could be a little more like for like in terms of replacement. Moving either Cracknell or Liebenburg to 7 and going with a big backrow of Martin/Cracknell/Liebenburg is the bludgeoning option. There's also Sean Jansen who looked promising last season having come from NZ semi pro rugby where he had good write ups but couldn't get a look in to a pro deal and was working on a building site pre arriving at Welford Road. A full pre season might see him as a good option but he is an 8 really so more bosh.

Borthwick's move to develop a squad depth more than focus on a big name first XV should help us out as we could field something like;

Cronin, Clare, Cole
Wells, Green
Liebenburg, Cracknell, Martin
Youngs, Burns
Kelly, Scott
Nadolo, Hegarty, Potter

TCD, Whitcombe, Leatigaga, Henderson, Ilione/Jansen, Wigglesworth, Gopperth, Murimurivalu/Ashton.

You'd hope that would be able to give Chiefs a stern test and beat out Falcons.

Saints:

LHP - Iyogun, A Waller, E Waller, Hobbs-Awoyemi, Patten*, Tarr*
THP - Hill, Painter, Petch, Heffernan, Prowse*
Hooker - S Matavesi, Haywood, Fish, Smith, Burns*, Wright*, Gradwick-Light*
Lock - Ribbans, Coles, Moon, Salakaia-Loto, Nansen, Atuanya*, Lockett*
Backrow - Lawes, Ludlam, Augustus, Hinkley, Scott-Young, Wilkins, Graham, Irvine*, Ratu-Willemsen*, Gaffan*, Weru*, Sylvester*
Scrum-half - Mitchell, James, Braley, Garside*
Fly-half - Biggar, J Grayson, Arden*
Centre - Dingwall, Hutchinson, Proctor, J Matavesi, E Grayson*, Litchfield*, Kean*, Thame*
Wing - Collins, Ramm, Skosan, O Sleightholme, F Sleightholme*
Fullback - Freeman, Furbank, Hendy*

* - senior academy

From that lot I think a squad looking like this could be pretty tasty:

Iyogun, Matavesi, Painter
Ribbans, Salakaia-Loto
Lawes, Ludlam, Augustus
Mitchell, Biggar
Hutchinson, Dingwall
Skosan, Freeman, Ramm

Bench of Haywood/Smith, Waller (either), Hill, Coles/Moon, Hinkley/Scott-Young, James/Braley, Proctor, Furbank

Is that confirmation that Hinkley's finally got a full-time contract? Why did no-one say anything before?!

Puja

Adam_P wrote:Saints:

LHP - Iyogun, A Waller, E Waller, Hobbs-Awoyemi, Patten*, Tarr*
THP - Hill, Painter, Petch, Heffernan, Prowse*
Hooker - S Matavesi, Haywood, Fish, Smith, Burns*, Wright*, Gradwick-Light*
Lock - Ribbans, Coles, Moon, Salakaia-Loto, Nansen, Atuanya*, Lockett*
Backrow - Lawes, Ludlam, Augustus, Hinkley, Scott-Young, Wilkins, Graham, Irvine*, Ratu-Willemsen*, Gaffan*, Weru*, Sylvester*
Scrum-half - Mitchell, James, Braley, Garside*
Fly-half - Biggar, J Grayson, Arden
Centre - Dingwall, Hutchinson, Proctor, J Matavesi, E Grayson*, Litchfield*, Kean*, Thame*
Wing - Collins, Ramm, Skosan, O Sleightholme, F Sleightholme*
Fullback - Freeman, Furbank, Hendy*

* - senior academy

Any rumours on Bedford loanees?