RugbyRebels

I do not support the change of thread title. It was the one item of hope and inspiration even if it was wishful thinking.

In The Times today:

‘ This is Jones’s take: “We are developing an attack that’s unpredictable. It’s not consistent yet, but by the World Cup it will be. Our defence is pretty good and our breakdown is pretty good. We’ve still got a consistency area in the scrum to improve. Generally our aerial game is outstanding.”

The numbers don’t entirely support that summary. More facts: this was England’s worst year under Jones for tries scored, points scored, line breaks, tackle success and scrum success. England’s scrum was the worst of the world’s top ten nations and their tackle success the second worst, above only Japan. They were in the bottom four for line breaks and only Wales scored fewer tries.’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stil ... -s7rx8nb8m

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:36 am I do not support the change of thread title. It was the one item of hope and inspiration even if it was wishful thinking.

Wouldn't you rather see this when it's actually true though? Should I start one saying we've got Robertson, Smith & Edwards starting immediately?

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... or-england

Which is why the Twickenham alarm bells are belatedly clanging. What price Jones’s mission statement in January 2020 – “We want to be the greatest rugby team the world has ever seen” – off the back of six defeats and a draw in their 12 Tests in 2022?

Kitson in the Guardian with a pretty good review.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:51 am https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... or-england

Which is why the Twickenham alarm bells are belatedly clanging. What price Jones’s mission statement in January 2020 – “We want to be the greatest rugby team the world has ever seen” – off the back of six defeats and a draw in their 12 Tests in 2022?

Kitson in the Guardian with a pretty good review.

Now that's pretty rough.

"Against the Irish, French and Springboks, perhaps the three best scrummaging packs in the world, England have managed two tries in 240 minutes, scored when they were trailing 18-6 and 27-6 respectively."

It occurred to me I've been sort of writing off Scotland's RWC completely, being in a group with Ireland and South Africa (nevermind Tonga) and just not being able to deal with the most physical teams, but that performance on Saturday is exactly the kind of thing I feared. How quickly can you turn around the mindset or selection issues that create that sort of mismatch in physicality?

Also I thought Mercer eligible (from the new year) now he has an English contract signed, or is it only from 23/24?

The other valid point raised there is what are we actually doing if Lawes doesn't keep up his form/fitness for another year? Keep trying to crowbar others in to his spot? You feel like developing the lineout game of Willis/Martin/Hill might be easier than hoping a lock can pick up all the intricacies of playing 6. Lawes himself took a full-time move to 6 at club level, and god knows how many international caps, before he really settled.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:46 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:36 am I do not support the change of thread title. It was the one item of hope and inspiration even if it was wishful thinking.

Wouldn't you rather see this when it's actually true though? Should I start one saying we've got Robertson, Smith & Edwards starting immediately?

Careful, that would be orgasmic!

Floating multiple excuses is neither here nor there. Even 'is there an alternative available' should not enter the debate. Frankly, could anybody be worse than Jones in terms of the way the team is performing?

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:31 am Floating multiple excuses is neither here nor there. Even 'is there an alternative available' should not enter the debate. Frankly, could anybody be worse than Jones in terms of the way the team is performing?

Be careful what you wish for - I'm not sure Cockerill would be any kind of an improvement and, if they can't find someone, that's definitely who the RFU will go with. I'd rather stick with Jones and hope that he actually does have a master plan and this autumn was because of Kamp Staaldraad shenanigans, than I would hand the reins over to Cockerill and whichever assistants they can scrape together.

If we can acquire Robertson, then Jones out, hundred percent. If it's Gatland... dunno, maybe? I don't know who else would be available.

Puja

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:37 am In The Times today:

‘ This is Jones’s take: “We are developing an attack that’s unpredictable. It’s not consistent yet, but by the World Cup it will be. Our defence is pretty good and our breakdown is pretty good. We’ve still got a consistency area in the scrum to improve. Generally our aerial game is outstanding.”

The numbers don’t entirely support that summary. More facts: this was England’s worst year under Jones for tries scored, points scored, line breaks, tackle success and scrum success. England’s scrum was the worst of the world’s top ten nations and their tackle success the second worst, above only Japan. They were in the bottom four for line breaks and only Wales scored fewer tries.’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stil ... -s7rx8nb8m

Wow, those stats are bleak.

Eddie does say a lot of things that have no grounding in objective reality doesn't he? The perfect coach for the 'post-truth' age.

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:06 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:31 am Floating multiple excuses is neither here nor there. Even 'is there an alternative available' should not enter the debate. Frankly, could anybody be worse than Jones in terms of the way the team is performing?

Be careful what you wish for - I'm not sure Cockerill would be any kind of an improvement and, if they can't find someone, that's definitely who the RFU will go with. I'd rather stick with Jones and hope that he actually does have a master plan and this autumn was because of Kamp Staaldraad shenanigans, than I would hand the reins over to Cockerill and whichever assistants they can scrape together.

If we can acquire Robertson, then Jones out, hundred percent. If it's Gatland... dunno, maybe? I don't know who else would be available.

Puja

I'm pretty fed up with how we're playing under Eddie and I've defended him plenty previously. I'm with you on it though, if we can get a high quality and innovative replacement then let's pull the trigger and take the gamble. If we can't then let's stick it out.

Gatland, Cockerill etc not what I'd call an improvement. Credit to Gatland his brand of direct rugby can be integrated quickly though I'm not sure we have the players to make it work nor do I think it would function without a high class defence coach, which we a) don't have and b) seemingly the RFU don't want to buy out of contract. His spectacular flop at Super Rugby level sort of highlighted his limitations.

Of course there’s another side to this. How well are English teams doing in Europe? I may be wrong but I can’t remember England being good internationally unless they had club teams winning in Europe.

badback wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:41 pm Of course there’s another side to this. How well are English teams doing in Europe? I may be wrong but I can’t remember England being good internationally unless they had club teams winning in Europe.

Think the English sides did ok last season. Tigers and Sarries went to the quarters I think. Quins and Saints to the knock out rounds. Did Sale do ok as well?

We'll find out where we currently stack up in the next month I guess.

I think we have issues: such as the tight five not being as strong as Eddie's game plan needs it to be. That's partly down to the likes of Marler, Cole and Kruis not being available/selected and so detracting from the set piece strength and partly because the new wave of talent is quite young for instance Heyes has not long turned 23 and Rodd is 21, Chessum and Tizzard 21/22 sort of age. Similar in other positions, we've got lots of talent but most of it is 25 and under.

badback wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:41 pm Of course there’s another side to this. How well are English teams doing in Europe? I may be wrong but I can’t remember England being good internationally unless they had club teams winning in Europe.

Good point but I'd like to see the EQP numbers in the comparative eras together with the quality of the foreign contingents. Might the salary cap reduction be a factor too?

As ever, it's about successive head coaches making the best of what they have. I simply don't see Jones as having done that in the last three years. Defeat by better teams hurts but defeat by teams that we ought to beat is choking, especially when it keeps happening.

badback wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:41 pm Of course there’s another side to this. How well are English teams doing in Europe? I may be wrong but I can’t remember England being good internationally unless they had club teams winning in Europe.

It's questionable what barometer this actually is through? You could make an argument that:
- our best players are spread over more teams vs. the Pro 14; and...
- the French teams have deeper squads

So I'm not sure you can draw too many conclusions based off that

I don't think it's a World Class vintage of players, but they are undoubtedly playing within themselves/a different coach, picking a different team would (I'm very confident) get better results.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:21 pm

badback wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:41 pm Of course there’s another side to this. How well are English teams doing in Europe? I may be wrong but I can’t remember England being good internationally unless they had club teams winning in Europe.

Good point but I'd like to see the EQP numbers in the comparative eras together with the quality of the foreign contingents. Might the salary cap reduction be a factor too?

As ever, it's about successive head coaches making the best of what they have. I simply don't see Jones as having done that in the last three years. Defeat by better teams hurts but defeat by teams that we ought to beat is choking, especially when it keeps happening.

I'd say the salary cap restriction is absolutely a factor on English clubs in Europe. It's hard competing with French teams when they can afford superstars and we can't (or, in the case of Bristol, can afford 4-5 superstars and then gods help you if they're injured).

Puja

England are a hot mess! He's not wrong. A number of strong points well made here.

He has turned highly rated chefs into Green King pot washers.

Man up Eddie and pack ya bags.......

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:37 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:21 pm

badback wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:41 pm Of course there’s another side to this. How well are English teams doing in Europe? I may be wrong but I can’t remember England being good internationally unless they had club teams winning in Europe.

Good point but I'd like to see the EQP numbers in the comparative eras together with the quality of the foreign contingents. Might the salary cap reduction be a factor too?

As ever, it's about successive head coaches making the best of what they have. I simply don't see Jones as having done that in the last three years. Defeat by better teams hurts but defeat by teams that we ought to beat is choking, especially when it keeps happening.

I'd say the salary cap restriction is absolutely a factor on English clubs in Europe. It's hard competing with French teams when they can afford superstars and we can't (or, in the case of Bristol, can afford 4-5 superstars and then gods help you if they're injured).

Puja

Yes true

I've been checking the news headlines all day today expecting to read of Eddie's departure, but it seems the belligerent bellend still has his job.

Me too

I’m really not expecting him to go.

francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:08 pm I've been checking the news headlines all day today expecting to read of Eddie's departure, but it seems the belligerent bellend still has his job.

This is the RFU. Did you really think there was going to be someone making a decision in one working day?

First there is a review. Then there will be a committee formed to review the review. Then there will be consultants hired to assess the impact of taking actions based on the recommendations of the committee. Then there will be a further review, possibly by a different committee, to narrow down the options and do a feasibility study on each one. Then a formal recommendation will be given to the board, who will decide whether to accept it or not, based solely on how good their digestion of their expensive lunch is going.

If anything happens, it won't happen for a month at least.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:04 pm

francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:08 pm I've been checking the news headlines all day today expecting to read of Eddie's departure, but it seems the belligerent bellend still has his job.

This is the RFU. Did you really think there was going to be someone making a decision in one working day?

First there is a review. Then there will be a committee formed to review the review. Then there will be consultants hired to assess the impact of taking actions based on the recommendations of the committee. Then there will be a further review, possibly by a different committee, to narrow down the options and do a feasibility study on each one. Then a formal recommendation will be given to the board, who will decide whether to accept it or not, based solely on how good their digestion of their expensive lunch is going.

If anything happens, it won't happen for a month at least.

Puja

Mon dieu! This sounds just like the snail-pace of French administration!

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:04 pm

francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:08 pm I've been checking the news headlines all day today expecting to read of Eddie's departure, but it seems the belligerent bellend still has his job.

This is the RFU. Did you really think there was going to be someone making a decision in one working day?

First there is a review. Then there will be a committee formed to review the review. Then there will be consultants hired to assess the impact of taking actions based on the recommendations of the committee. Then there will be a further review, possibly by a different committee, to narrow down the options and do a feasibility study on each one. Then a formal recommendation will be given to the board, who will decide whether to accept it or not, based solely on how good their digestion of their expensive lunch is going.

If anything happens, it won't happen for a month at least.

Puja

One cannot be serious. Just the one luncheon? No, surely an all day Michelin Star affair with stay at a five star hotel thrown in either side of the deliberation. Not to mention the wine selection.

Is there a GoFundMe yet to buy him out his last year?