Leicester vs Clermont - Sat 3.15pm

[Puja]

So suggesting that someone is "a shadow of the player that was pressing (sic) the England squad" - in contrast to several Tigers supporters' favourable comments - isn't derogatory?

You may not rate MOTM awards. But they are made by professional assessors who in many cases have years of top-flight playing experience. I know whose views I value.

You're being incredibly defensive about some extremely mild criticism. How come?

Actually, probably a more relevant question - can you provide me with examples of things that he has done over the last couple of games, ball-in-hand, that would change my opinion that he's looked uncomfortable? I'm very open to being proved wrong - as regulars on here will tell you, it happens semi-regularly - but I'm gonna need something more than an appeal to authority or an appeal to the crowd.

Puja

[Oakboy]

Atkinson did alright. I thought his lack of fluency in attack was largely down to the quality of ball he received. Ford was used to Youngs's style of delivery. Atkinson is not. It's as fundamental as deciding where to stand to receive from the SH. A young FH with a good defensive brain (which Atkinson appears to have) tends to cut risk by standing deeper than his natural game dictates because Youngs's service is erratic and inaccurate. Once he starts to tell Youngs what to do (as Ford did), Atkinson's game will improve, just as it will if JVP wears the 9 shirt.

[p/d]

Filling Ford’s boots would make you uncomfortable. Tiny feet has our Georgie!

[p/d]

So last Leicester game done for Bothers and Sinfield.

[stepsider]

So suggesting that someone is "a shadow of the player that was pressing (sic) the England squad" - in contrast to several Tigers supporters' favourable comments - isn't derogatory?

You may not rate MOTM awards. But they are made by professional assessors who in many cases have years of top-flight playing experience. I know whose views I value.

You're being incredibly defensive about some extremely mild criticism. How come?

Actually, probably a more relevant question - can you provide me with examples of things that he has done over the last couple of games, ball-in-hand, that would change my opinion that he's looked uncomfortable? I'm very open to being proved wrong - as regulars on here will tell you, it happens semi-regularly - but I'm gonna need something more than an appeal to authority or an appeal to the crowd.

Puja

That's not mild criticism. And I consider it unfair, as by implication do many others. Atkinson looked increasing composed.

Sure, not the finished article. But I fail to see the merit in unjustifiably undermining a young fly half who has just a handful of games for Tigers, is coping with Youngs' passing eccentricities and whose confidence is clearly improving.

[FKAS]

So last Leicester game done for Bothers and Sinfield.

Meh they change the news reports every five minutes. There's been an array of alleged happenings and deadlines none of which have been anywhere near accurate. The newspapers no bugger all bar the RFU want Borthwick and he's likely to join once the terms are agreed between the three parties.

[FKAS]

Atkinson did alright. I thought his lack of fluency in attack was largely down to the quality of ball he received. Ford was used to Youngs's style of delivery. Atkinson is not. It's as fundamental as deciding where to stand to receive from the SH. A young FH with a good defensive brain (which Atkinson appears to have) tends to cut risk by standing deeper than his natural game dictates because Youngs's service is erratic and inaccurate. Once he starts to tell Youngs what to do (as Ford did), Atkinson's game will improve, just as it will if JVP wears the 9 shirt.

He was standing deeper because Tigers were trying to play a higher tempo performance and the move the ball coast to coast to wear down the hefty Clermont pack, particularly after the early injuries. Not a bad tactic but the results were a bit mixed, Clermont perhaps anticipating what Tigers would do had picked some younger guys as opposed to the old guard to give them more mobility. Not that any of that was Atkinson's fault or choice.

As his confidence grows in the players around him and he gets used to having a general at 9 as opposed to a sniping option he'll find his groove. As a flyhalf you've got to have a huge belief in yourself and those around to step out of the attacking pattern because you've seen something. The players around you have to be able to read it as well. Ford was supreme at doing that but he had nearly 90 caps and a decade in the league under his belt as well as several years at the club. I'm more than happy for Atkinson to keep doing what he's doing and grow into that role.

[p/d]

So last Leicester game done for Bothers and Sinfield.

Meh they change the news reports every five minutes. There's been an array of alleged happenings and deadlines none of which have been anywhere near accurate. The newspapers no bugger all bar the RFU want Borthwick and he's likely to join once the terms are agreed between the three parties.

Indeed. But you gotta love the ‘press’ for their done deal headlines

[Puja]

So suggesting that someone is "a shadow of the player that was pressing (sic) the England squad" - in contrast to several Tigers supporters' favourable comments - isn't derogatory?

You may not rate MOTM awards. But they are made by professional assessors who in many cases have years of top-flight playing experience. I know whose views I value.

You're being incredibly defensive about some extremely mild criticism. How come?

Actually, probably a more relevant question - can you provide me with examples of things that he has done over the last couple of games, ball-in-hand, that would change my opinion that he's looked uncomfortable? I'm very open to being proved wrong - as regulars on here will tell you, it happens semi-regularly - but I'm gonna need something more than an appeal to authority or an appeal to the crowd.

Puja

That's not mild criticism. And I consider it unfair, as by implication do many others. Atkinson looked increasing composed.

Sure, not the finished article. But I fail to see the merit in unjustifiably undermining a young fly half who has just a handful of games for Tigers, is coping with Youngs' passing eccentricities and whose confidence is clearly improving.

There seems to be some disconnect here, a miscommunication between us. I have rewritten this post several times, because it is very easy to be vitriolic on the internet and I firmly believe that we are talking at cross-purposes, rather than having the basis for any real argument. To be 100%, absolutely clear, I AM NOT SAYING HE IS A BAD PLAYER. I am not undermining him or leading a sustained campaign of hatred against him.

I am discussing a player who was on the fringes of the England squad and was dominating games for Wasps, scoring and sparking some ridiculous tries for them, and now looks uncomfortable in attack. You have laid out that he's only had a handful of games for Tigers and that he's adapting to playing with new players, without seeming to realise that I have offered the same context on my own posts. I AM NOT SAYING HE IS A BAD PLAYER. I am saying that he's had shitty circumstances and a complete change of setup and he's UNDERSTANDABLY not producing even a fraction of what he was doing in his latter days at Wasps.

I'm certain that he will come good, given time - I believe I've mentioned that I don't think he's a bad player! In fact, I'm a massive fan and was thrilled that we signed him. Right now, however, I don't think it is "unjustifiably undermining" to discuss a player's performance on a discussion board, even if my opinion does go against "the implications of many others."

Puja

[stepsider]

You're being incredibly defensive about some extremely mild criticism. How come?

Actually, probably a more relevant question - can you provide me with examples of things that he has done over the last couple of games, ball-in-hand, that would change my opinion that he's looked uncomfortable? I'm very open to being proved wrong - as regulars on here will tell you, it happens semi-regularly - but I'm gonna need something more than an appeal to authority or an appeal to the crowd.

Puja

That's not mild criticism. And I consider it unfair, as by implication do many others. Atkinson looked increasing composed.

Sure, not the finished article. But I fail to see the merit in unjustifiably undermining a young fly half who has just a handful of games for Tigers, is coping with Youngs' passing eccentricities and whose confidence is clearly improving.

There seems to be some disconnect here, a miscommunication between us. I have rewritten this post several times, because it is very easy to be vitriolic on the internet and I firmly believe that we are talking at cross-purposes, rather than having the basis for any real argument. To be 100%, absolutely clear, I AM NOT SAYING HE IS A BAD PLAYER. I am not undermining him or leading a sustained campaign of hatred against him.

I am discussing a player who was on the fringes of the England squad and was dominating games for Wasps, scoring and sparking some ridiculous tries for them, and now looks uncomfortable in attack. You have laid out that he's only had a handful of games for Tigers and that he's adapting to playing with new players, without seeming to realise that I have offered the same context on my own posts. I AM NOT SAYING HE IS A BAD PLAYER. I am saying that he's had shitty circumstances and a complete change of setup and he's UNDERSTANDABLY not producing even a fraction of what he was doing in his latter days at Wasps.

I'm certain that he will come good, given time - I believe I've mentioned that I don't think he's a bad player! In fact, I'm a massive fan and was thrilled that we signed him. Right now, however, I don't think it is "unjustifiably undermining" to discuss a player's performance on a discussion board, even if my opinion does go against "the implications of many others."

Puja

To repeat, I disagreed with your original comments about "very uncomfortable" and "shadow of the player", etc.

I still disagree with them, as clearly do many others. But I believe we both hope/expect that Atkinson will improve further with more game time at Tigers.

[Puja]

That's not mild criticism. And I consider it unfair, as by implication do many others. Atkinson looked increasing composed.

Sure, not the finished article. But I fail to see the merit in unjustifiably undermining a young fly half who has just a handful of games for Tigers, is coping with Youngs' passing eccentricities and whose confidence is clearly improving.

There seems to be some disconnect here, a miscommunication between us. I have rewritten this post several times, because it is very easy to be vitriolic on the internet and I firmly believe that we are talking at cross-purposes, rather than having the basis for any real argument. To be 100%, absolutely clear, I AM NOT SAYING HE IS A BAD PLAYER. I am not undermining him or leading a sustained campaign of hatred against him.

I am discussing a player who was on the fringes of the England squad and was dominating games for Wasps, scoring and sparking some ridiculous tries for them, and now looks uncomfortable in attack. You have laid out that he's only had a handful of games for Tigers and that he's adapting to playing with new players, without seeming to realise that I have offered the same context on my own posts. I AM NOT SAYING HE IS A BAD PLAYER. I am saying that he's had shitty circumstances and a complete change of setup and he's UNDERSTANDABLY not producing even a fraction of what he was doing in his latter days at Wasps.

I'm certain that he will come good, given time - I believe I've mentioned that I don't think he's a bad player! In fact, I'm a massive fan and was thrilled that we signed him. Right now, however, I don't think it is "unjustifiably undermining" to discuss a player's performance on a discussion board, even if my opinion does go against "the implications of many others."

Puja

To repeat, I disagreed with your original comments about "very uncomfortable" and "shadow of the player", etc.

I still disagree with them, as clearly do many others. But I believe we both hope/expect that Atkinson will improve further with more game time at Tigers.

I think that is where the disconnect is - I wrote "shadow of the player" because back then he was on the fringes of the England squad and dominating games for Wasps, which is form that he's patently not showing right now (for the very obvious and oft-repeated reasons and context, which hopefully doesn't need reiterating), whereas I think you have read it as an insult which it was not intended to be.

I'm glad for our common ground in the last sentence though.

Puja

[Mr Mwenda]

Makes a change to complaining about Jones and Farrell!

[Puja]

Looks like this was Wiggy's last hurrah on the pitch - he appears to have retired from playing as part of taking over as our interim head coach. Not sure if he'll unretire if someone else takes over before the end of the season though.

Puja

[p/d]

Interesting to see how the players react. I am imagine a few will be uncomfortable

[Mellsblue]

You’ve got to guess Tigers will need at least one new scrumhalf prior to the 6N window. They could have Youngs and JVP with England and the Wiggler up in the stands.

[FKAS]

You’ve got to guess Tigers will need at least one new scrumhalf prior to the 6N window. They could have Youngs and JVP with England and the Wiggler up in the stands.

Yeah, could be why Wigglesworth has announced his retirement so that he won't count towards the cap from now on. Young Sam Edwards is the other option and he's very much Wiggy esque in his playing, bullet pass and box kick that comes down with snow on it. Not much of a running option. We've got Simmonds a utility player who's quick and comfortable at 9 as well but wouldn't rule out fishing about for another 9 on a short term deal.

[FKAS]

Interesting to see how the players react. I am imagine a few will be uncomfortable

Wigglesworth was a player/coach from as soon as he joined. He's been working on the attack and brought in that little move that Tigers used to isolate the winger and score in the final. Not really a massive shift for him within the squad dynamic.

[p/d]

Interesting to see how the players react. I am imagine a few will be uncomfortable

Wigglesworth was a player/coach from as soon as he joined. He's been working on the attack and brought in that little move that Tigers used to isolate the winger and score in the final. Not really a massive shift for him within the squad dynamic.

Sorry FKAS, it was a poor post aimed at Puja's 'uncomfortable' stance on young Charlie boy.

[Spiffy]

Atkinson did alright. I thought his lack of fluency in attack was largely down to the quality of ball he received. Ford was used to Youngs's style of delivery. Atkinson is not. It's as fundamental as deciding where to stand to receive from the SH. A young FH with a good defensive brain (which Atkinson appears to have) tends to cut risk by standing deeper than his natural game dictates because Youngs's service is erratic and inaccurate. Once he starts to tell Youngs what to do (as Ford did), Atkinson's game will improve, just as it will if JVP wears the 9 shirt.

Atkinson named in Planet Rugby's XV of the weekend's championship cup matches.
One thing I remember from his Wasp's days is his speed.
He gave chase to LRZ in a game against Gloucs last year and stayed with him for the length of the pitch.

[Beasties]

Just finished watching the gme. Atkinson is top quality but he’s clearly searching for some fluidity among his new teammates. He was really motoring and was building an exciting partnership at Wasps with the new Saffer we had at IC, Odendaal. He hasn’t got the toys to play with in the Tigers backline that he had at Wasps though so I’m not sure you're going to see his attacking talents in quite the same way. You will not regret signing him though. The lad never backs down, Blackett had to have a word with him about that. He’ll feature for Eng after the WC, I’ve no doubt about that.