RugbyRebels

stepsider wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:50 pm So suggesting that someone is "a shadow of the player that was pressing (sic) the England squad" - in contrast to several Tigers supporters' favourable comments - isn't derogatory?

You may not rate MOTM awards. But they are made by professional assessors who in many cases have years of top-flight playing experience. I know whose views I value.

Puja wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:32 am

stepsider wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:50 pm So suggesting that someone is "a shadow of the player that was pressing (sic) the England squad" - in contrast to several Tigers supporters' favourable comments - isn't derogatory?

You may not rate MOTM awards. But they are made by professional assessors who in many cases have years of top-flight playing experience. I know whose views I value.

You're being incredibly defensive about some extremely mild criticism. How come?

Actually, probably a more relevant question - can you provide me with examples of things that he has done over the last couple of games, ball-in-hand, that would change my opinion that he's looked uncomfortable? I'm very open to being proved wrong - as regulars on here will tell you, it happens semi-regularly - but I'm gonna need something more than an appeal to authority or an appeal to the crowd.

Puja

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:04 am So last Leicester game done for Bothers and Sinfield.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:43 am Atkinson did alright. I thought his lack of fluency in attack was largely down to the quality of ball he received. Ford was used to Youngs's style of delivery. Atkinson is not. It's as fundamental as deciding where to stand to receive from the SH. A young FH with a good defensive brain (which Atkinson appears to have) tends to cut risk by standing deeper than his natural game dictates because Youngs's service is erratic and inaccurate. Once he starts to tell Youngs what to do (as Ford did), Atkinson's game will improve, just as it will if JVP wears the 9 shirt.

FKAS wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:37 am

p/d wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:04 am So last Leicester game done for Bothers and Sinfield.

Meh they change the news reports every five minutes. There's been an array of alleged happenings and deadlines none of which have been anywhere near accurate. The newspapers no bugger all bar the RFU want Borthwick and he's likely to join once the terms are agreed between the three parties.

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:24 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:32 am

stepsider wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:50 pm So suggesting that someone is "a shadow of the player that was pressing (sic) the England squad" - in contrast to several Tigers supporters' favourable comments - isn't derogatory?

You may not rate MOTM awards. But they are made by professional assessors who in many cases have years of top-flight playing experience. I know whose views I value.

You're being incredibly defensive about some extremely mild criticism. How come?

Actually, probably a more relevant question - can you provide me with examples of things that he has done over the last couple of games, ball-in-hand, that would change my opinion that he's looked uncomfortable? I'm very open to being proved wrong - as regulars on here will tell you, it happens semi-regularly - but I'm gonna need something more than an appeal to authority or an appeal to the crowd.

Puja

That's not mild criticism. And I consider it unfair, as by implication do many others. Atkinson looked increasing composed.

Sure, not the finished article. But I fail to see the merit in unjustifiably undermining a young fly half who has just a handful of games for Tigers, is coping with Youngs' passing eccentricities and whose confidence is clearly improving.

Puja wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:01 am

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:24 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:32 am

You're being incredibly defensive about some extremely mild criticism. How come?

Actually, probably a more relevant question - can you provide me with examples of things that he has done over the last couple of games, ball-in-hand, that would change my opinion that he's looked uncomfortable? I'm very open to being proved wrong - as regulars on here will tell you, it happens semi-regularly - but I'm gonna need something more than an appeal to authority or an appeal to the crowd.

Puja

That's not mild criticism. And I consider it unfair, as by implication do many others. Atkinson looked increasing composed.

Sure, not the finished article. But I fail to see the merit in unjustifiably undermining a young fly half who has just a handful of games for Tigers, is coping with Youngs' passing eccentricities and whose confidence is clearly improving.

There seems to be some disconnect here, a miscommunication between us. I have rewritten this post several times, because it is very easy to be vitriolic on the internet and I firmly believe that we are talking at cross-purposes, rather than having the basis for any real argument. To be 100%, absolutely clear, I AM NOT SAYING HE IS A BAD PLAYER. I am not undermining him or leading a sustained campaign of hatred against him.

I am discussing a player who was on the fringes of the England squad and was dominating games for Wasps, scoring and sparking some ridiculous tries for them, and now looks uncomfortable in attack. You have laid out that he's only had a handful of games for Tigers and that he's adapting to playing with new players, without seeming to realise that I have offered the same context on my own posts. I AM NOT SAYING HE IS A BAD PLAYER. I am saying that he's had shitty circumstances and a complete change of setup and he's UNDERSTANDABLY not producing even a fraction of what he was doing in his latter days at Wasps.

I'm certain that he will come good, given time - I believe I've mentioned that I don't think he's a bad player! In fact, I'm a massive fan and was thrilled that we signed him. Right now, however, I don't think it is "unjustifiably undermining" to discuss a player's performance on a discussion board, even if my opinion does go against "the implications of many others."

Puja

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:27 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:01 am

stepsider wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:24 am


That's not mild criticism. And I consider it unfair, as by implication do many others. Atkinson looked increasing composed.

Sure, not the finished article. But I fail to see the merit in unjustifiably undermining a young fly half who has just a handful of games for Tigers, is coping with Youngs' passing eccentricities and whose confidence is clearly improving.

There seems to be some disconnect here, a miscommunication between us. I have rewritten this post several times, because it is very easy to be vitriolic on the internet and I firmly believe that we are talking at cross-purposes, rather than having the basis for any real argument. To be 100%, absolutely clear, I AM NOT SAYING HE IS A BAD PLAYER. I am not undermining him or leading a sustained campaign of hatred against him.

I am discussing a player who was on the fringes of the England squad and was dominating games for Wasps, scoring and sparking some ridiculous tries for them, and now looks uncomfortable in attack. You have laid out that he's only had a handful of games for Tigers and that he's adapting to playing with new players, without seeming to realise that I have offered the same context on my own posts. I AM NOT SAYING HE IS A BAD PLAYER. I am saying that he's had shitty circumstances and a complete change of setup and he's UNDERSTANDABLY not producing even a fraction of what he was doing in his latter days at Wasps.

I'm certain that he will come good, given time - I believe I've mentioned that I don't think he's a bad player! In fact, I'm a massive fan and was thrilled that we signed him. Right now, however, I don't think it is "unjustifiably undermining" to discuss a player's performance on a discussion board, even if my opinion does go against "the implications of many others."

Puja

To repeat, I disagreed with your original comments about "very uncomfortable" and "shadow of the player", etc.

I still disagree with them, as clearly do many others. But I believe we both hope/expect that Atkinson will improve further with more game time at Tigers.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:04 pm You’ve got to guess Tigers will need at least one new scrumhalf prior to the 6N window. They could have Youngs and JVP with England and the Wiggler up in the stands.

p/d wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 12:54 pm Interesting to see how the players react. I am imagine a few will be uncomfortable

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 1:26 pm

p/d wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 12:54 pm Interesting to see how the players react. I am imagine a few will be uncomfortable

Wigglesworth was a player/coach from as soon as he joined. He's been working on the attack and brought in that little move that Tigers used to isolate the winger and score in the final. Not really a massive shift for him within the squad dynamic.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:43 am Atkinson did alright. I thought his lack of fluency in attack was largely down to the quality of ball he received. Ford was used to Youngs's style of delivery. Atkinson is not. It's as fundamental as deciding where to stand to receive from the SH. A young FH with a good defensive brain (which Atkinson appears to have) tends to cut risk by standing deeper than his natural game dictates because Youngs's service is erratic and inaccurate. Once he starts to tell Youngs what to do (as Ford did), Atkinson's game will improve, just as it will if JVP wears the 9 shirt.