Gloucester vs Saracens - Friday night

[Mellsblue]

Furbank if Eddie was there .

I miss Eddie.

[Danno]

Eddie Burns?

[Oakboy]

Earl did get MoM, presumably for the flash stuff (he is very fast with a sharp step)

That's me told! Thought a few worked a lot harder and were more effective but hey- his carrying is not the question mark for me.

It's simple, IMO. Earl is a good player but there are a good half dozen better choices for England.

[FKAS]

Freddie ‘the Eden Park Matador’ Burns? Although lols at the idea that any ban will run in to the 6N…

Unfortunately Freddie "the drop kick" Burns isn't going to be fit in time. The injury he got Vs Sale not one he'll quickly recover from.

If the top 3 options were injured then it would have to be Fin Smith, got to get that lad tied to England and keep Gregor away so at least they'd be some positive from the serious step down in selection options. Re Furbank I'd prefer him at 10 to 15, at 15 he's a liability at international level.

[ilovelamp]

Still got my pitchfork out and trying to find out which hotel Dickson is staying at.

Judging by his ‘likes’ on Twitter he seems to be quite happy to throw Hodnett under a bus rather than take any actual blame himself.

I thought that was a great, attritional game of rugby and that we should have nicked it. Thorley looked great and Ludlow, VRR and Ben Morgan also had great games.

[ilovelamp]

A long way from being the player he was. I think there is a very good reason why we have signed Mercer for next season.

I would love to see Jake back to his world class destructive best but think it’s gone. Such a shame.

That is a huge shame. Hopefully he can reinvent himself- it was a bad one.

Given just how long he was out it's still early in his comeback. Realistically next season will be the real acid test, it's probably going to take the rest of this season just to approach passable fitness levels.

I thought Mercer would be more of a Morgan replacement?

JP only re-signed for one season though and with Mercer already signed up and Morgan having somewhat of a renaissance I don’t think he’s a luxury we can afford. Suspect he’ll end up in Italy but he’s had a full pre-season, game time with us and Hartpury and I just don’t see that’s he’s going to be the same player. Hope I’m wrong because he’s a phenom when 100%.

[Mellsblue]

Freddie ‘the Eden Park Matador’ Burns? Although lols at the idea that any ban will run in to the 6N…

Unfortunately Freddie "the drop kick" Burns isn't going to be fit in time. The injury he got Vs Sale not one he'll quickly recover from.

If the top 3 options were injured then it would have to be Fin Smith, got to get that lad tied to England and keep Gregor away so at least they'd be some positive from the serious step down in selection options. Re Furbank I'd prefer him at 10 to 15, at 15 he's a liability at international level.

It was not a serious suggestion…

[ilovelamp]

Freddie ‘the Eden Park Matador’ Burns? Although lols at the idea that any ban will run in to the 6N…

Unfortunately Freddie "the drop kick" Burns isn't going to be fit in time. The injury he got Vs Sale not one he'll quickly recover from.

If the top 3 options were injured then it would have to be Fin Smith, got to get that lad tied to England and keep Gregor away so at least they'd be some positive from the serious step down in selection options. Re Furbank I'd prefer him at 10 to 15, at 15 he's a liability at international level.

It was not a serious suggestion…

What’s Jacob Umaga up to these days (dons flak jacket and helmet)

[Oakboy]

Unfortunately Freddie "the drop kick" Burns isn't going to be fit in time. The injury he got Vs Sale not one he'll quickly recover from.

If the top 3 options were injured then it would have to be Fin Smith, got to get that lad tied to England and keep Gregor away so at least they'd be some positive from the serious step down in selection options. Re Furbank I'd prefer him at 10 to 15, at 15 he's a liability at international level.

It was not a serious suggestion…

What’s Jacob Umaga up to these days (dons flak jacket and helmet)

Atkinson must be fairly well up the list.

[FKAS]

Unfortunately Freddie "the drop kick" Burns isn't going to be fit in time. The injury he got Vs Sale not one he'll quickly recover from.

If the top 3 options were injured then it would have to be Fin Smith, got to get that lad tied to England and keep Gregor away so at least they'd be some positive from the serious step down in selection options. Re Furbank I'd prefer him at 10 to 15, at 15 he's a liability at international level.

It was not a serious suggestion…

What’s Jacob Umaga up to these days (dons flak jacket and helmet)

Bench warming for Benneton.

[p/d]

It was not a serious suggestion…

What’s Jacob Umaga up to these days (dons flak jacket and helmet)

Atkinson must be fairly well up the list.

That might make uncomfortable reading for him

[Puja]

It was not a serious suggestion…

What’s Jacob Umaga up to these days (dons flak jacket and helmet)

Atkinson must be fairly well up the list.

Well, since Burns is unavailable...

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Some pretty good analysis in this clip.




It never ceases to amaze me how tall Bayfield is and I’m a big fan of Kayser as a pundit.

[Gloskarlos]

Kayser is great. Doesn’t mince words, knowledgable, clear, what’s not to like. Not that we will hear the outcome of the Monday Ref’s meeting, but I don’t like the TMO being thrown under the bus, whether it’s language, laws, or whatever, I think Dickson needs to shoulder the lions share of that debacle.

[Puja]

Kayser is great. Doesn’t mince words, knowledgable, clear, what’s not to like. Not that we will hear the outcome of the Monday Ref’s meeting, but I don’t like the TMO being thrown under the bus, whether it’s language, laws, or whatever, I think Dickson needs to shoulder the lions share of that debacle.

I don't see how it can be anyone but Dickson's fault. I'm not always a fan of Hodnett's TMOing, but she tried talking to him and he was dismissive and didn't want to know.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Farrell has been cited. Hearing tomorrow.

[Mikey Brown]

I’m always curious how the prior behaviour is viewed for a player like Farrell. I imagine that technically he has a very good disciplinary record, having gotten away with most of these kinds of high shots before.

Would they take in to account the fact that he does this all the time and shows no sign of stopping, even if he hasn’t been punished much for it?

[Puja]

I don't see how it can be anyone but Dickson's fault. I'm not always a fan of Hodnett's TMOing, but she tried talking to him and he was dismissive and didn't want to know.

Puja

At this point, it's not just Farrell that should be cited, but Dickson.

It's fair that the referees are setting up their union to protect their peers from abuse. Fair enough. But shit like this absolutely undermines any argument they make, when Dickson's negligence and abdication of his duty of care for the players puts people at risk of having their careers ended early. Like, fuck you, do your fucking job, Karl.

I don't know I'd go that far - Kayser had a very valid point that referees are under pressure to speed the game up and not use the TMO. He shouldn't've been dismissive of Hodnett, but also TMOs do bring up some shit at times and I understand why he was.

I would be in favour of the TMO just making a recommendation to a referee. None of this, "We've got foul play, you're going to need to look at this, let me get the right angle for you," bollocks. If we're having a fully qualified referee sitting in the TMO booth, then they should be able to make a decision themselves and say, "I've got foul play, it's a red card for 10 black for direct contact to the head," rather than having to walk the referee through what they've already seen.

Puja

[Puja]

I’m always curious how the prior behaviour is viewed for a player like Farrell. I imagine that technically he has a very good disciplinary record, having gotten away with most of these kinds of high shots before.

Would they take in to account the fact that he does this all the time and shows no sign of stopping, even if he hasn’t been punished much for it?

Anyone know if he's done the high contact training course that knocks a week off the ban already? You can only do that once and I'm not sure if he used up his one when he tried removing CAtkinson's head a season or so back.

Puja

[FKAS]

I’m always curious how the prior behaviour is viewed for a player like Farrell. I imagine that technically he has a very good disciplinary record, having gotten away with most of these kinds of high shots before.

Would they take in to account the fact that he does this all the time and shows no sign of stopping, even if he hasn’t been punished much for it?

Anyone know if he's done the high contact training course that knocks a week off the ban already? You can only do that once and I'm not sure if he used up his one when he tried removing CAtkinson's head a season or so back.

Puja

That was two years ago (maybe more, 2020?). So he should be able to do the course and reduce by a week. I'm sure the panel will either forget his previous red or deem it long enough go not to interfere with the 50% reduction he'll need to make the 6N.

[Puja]

At this point, it's not just Farrell that should be cited, but Dickson.

It's fair that the referees are setting up their union to protect their peers from abuse. Fair enough. But shit like this absolutely undermines any argument they make, when Dickson's negligence and abdication of his duty of care for the players puts people at risk of having their careers ended early. Like, fuck you, do your fucking job, Karl.

I don't know I'd go that far - Kayser had a very valid point that referees are under pressure to speed the game up and not use the TMO. He shouldn't've been dismissive of Hodnett, but also TMOs do bring up some shit at times and I understand why he was.

I would be in favour of the TMO just making a recommendation to a referee. None of this, "We've got foul play, you're going to need to look at this, let me get the right angle for you," bollocks. If we're having a fully qualified referee sitting in the TMO booth, then they should be able to make a decision themselves and say, "I've got foul play, it's a red card for 10 black for direct contact to the head," rather than having to walk the referee through what they've already seen.

Puja

On the other hand, Dickson was right there, watching while it happened. So, if he didn't see it, it raises questions about his judgement, or whether he's got two functioning eyes. Either, he watched it happen and decided he couldn't give two fucks about it, was away with the fairies, or has significant eye problems. Either way, there should be questions about his competence and fitness to officiate. He shouldn't then be expecting the TMO to tell him about something that happened right in front of him, and then pass the buck when he dismisses what they're saying.

I am always wary of castigating refs and saying that they're unfit for purpose for missing something that seems glaringly obvious to us on television given that, a) it's a complicated game with half a dozen things going on at any given time and the ref does not have the advantage of a top-down camera angle (did everyone spot it themselves first time on the live video? I know some did, but it wasn't obvious enough that everyone was immediately up in arms on first viewing.), b) the best players in the world fuck up sometimes (hells, we're constantly told Farrell belongs in that category and I can name several in that game alone) and I am willing to allow refs to make clangers sometimes, and c) there's not exactly a plethora of high quality refs out there.

C is a big one for me - yes, Dickson has had a shit couple of weeks with this and the Marler incident, but he is also one of the best referees in England. And yes, cheap jokes about how sad that is, etc, etc, but unless you've got another, higher quality referee tucked away in your pocket or a way of making him better, it's a bit of a moot point and also a bit of a dickish move to slam him for a genuine and understandable mistake.

Would it be great if he was better? Yes. But the universal truth of rugby at all levels holds true - no ref, no game.

Puja

[fivepointer]

I don't know I'd go that far - Kayser had a very valid point that referees are under pressure to speed the game up and not use the TMO. He shouldn't've been dismissive of Hodnett, but also TMOs do bring up some shit at times and I understand why he was.

I would be in favour of the TMO just making a recommendation to a referee. None of this, "We've got foul play, you're going to need to look at this, let me get the right angle for you," bollocks. If we're having a fully qualified referee sitting in the TMO booth, then they should be able to make a decision themselves and say, "I've got foul play, it's a red card for 10 black for direct contact to the head," rather than having to walk the referee through what they've already seen.

Puja

On the other hand, Dickson was right there, watching while it happened. So, if he didn't see it, it raises questions about his judgement, or whether he's got two functioning eyes. Either, he watched it happen and decided he couldn't give two fucks about it, was away with the fairies, or has significant eye problems. Either way, there should be questions about his competence and fitness to officiate. He shouldn't then be expecting the TMO to tell him about something that happened right in front of him, and then pass the buck when he dismisses what they're saying.

I am always wary of castigating refs and saying that they're unfit for purpose for missing something that seems glaringly obvious to us on television given that, a) it's a complicated game with half a dozen things going on at any given time and the ref does not have the advantage of a top-down camera angle (did everyone spot it themselves first time on the live video? I know some did, but it wasn't obvious enough that everyone was immediately up in arms on first viewing.), b) the best players in the world fuck up sometimes (hells, we're constantly told Farrell belongs in that category and I can name several in that game alone) and I am willing to allow refs to make clangers sometimes, and c) there's not exactly a plethora of high quality refs out there.

C is a big one for me - yes, Dickson has had a shit couple of weeks with this and the Marler incident, but he is also one of the best referees in England. And yes, cheap jokes about how sad that is, etc, etc, but unless you've got another, higher quality referee tucked away in your pocket or a way of making him better, it's a bit of a moot point and also a bit of a dickish move to slam him for a genuine and understandable mistake.

Would it be great if he was better? Yes. But the universal truth of rugby at all levels holds true - no ref, no game.

Puja

I think thats very fair.
I only watched the game yesterday and it wasnt at all obvious there had been foul play when it happened. There was a lapse of well over a minute and a number of phases before the TMO alerted Dickson to the incident. It wasnt great communication. That should have been a lot better..
Dickson did actually make some very good calls in the game. He made a couple of howlers and inevitably a number of 50/50 calls that could have gone either way. I think there are better Prem refs - Barnes, Pearce, Carley, Ridley - but he is part of a small group good enough to handle games at this level.
It is ferociously difficult.

[Mellsblue]

It is ferociously difficult.

This is the key. Think of how many truly top quality refs there are. It’s an incredibly small number for one major reason.
I reffed my first match at the start of Dec for the first time in six months and I completely lost the plot for the final couple of mins after umming and ahhing* over a borderline high tackle, and this weekend I was told (in a friendly way) that I missed the most blatant of knock-ons because I briefly looked at what I thought might be an injured player… and that was at u11 level!

* I completely forget the laws for the restart after the ball goes dead and my team ended up running phase after phase into the oppo d in our ‘22’ whilst I’m there thinking ‘this doesn’t feel right, what have I missed’ and not fully concentrating on the game I was meant to be competently officiating.

[Banquo]

It is ferociously difficult.

This is the key. Think of how many truly top quality refs there are. It’s an incredibly small number for one major reason.
I reffed my first match at the start of Dec for the first time in six months and I completely lost the plot for the final couple of mins after umming and ahhing* over a borderline high tackle, and this weekend I was told (in a friendly way) that I missed the most blatant of knock-ons because I briefly looked at what I thought might be an injured player… and that was at u11 level!

* I completely forget the laws for the restart after the ball goes dead and my team ended up running phase after phase into the oppo d in our ‘22’ whilst I’m there thinking ‘this doesn’t feel right, what have I missed’ and not fully concentrating on the game I was meant to be competently officiating.

...and at the top level they have three (as far as I know) voices in their ears, a couple of players from each team having a pop at any one time and a complex and fast game to observe whilst running about in a non contact version of a scrum half. Its a very tough job- I wouldn't want to do it, especially when you consider the abuse they get before, during and after a game, and on social media. I really must stop shouting FFS ref at the TV screen.

[Mellsblue]

This seems like the most relevant thread* given discussions about the tackling school. Interesting thoughts from Kiss:




* If there is a more relevant thread or it’s felt it needs a new one stating then, despite the cheap low blow earlier this morning, I’ll trust the mod to move this if he sees fit.