RugbyRebels

You could change out half the team but i'm not sure that would improve us greatly. There has to be some changes, but i cant see a major overhaul.
When a team malfunctions in the way we did i'm inclined to think that the prep was seriously off key.
I think the best we can hope for is an improvement in our breakdown, better shape in attack, a more punchy defence and cutting out the dull errors that blighted our performance on Saturday.
Its a horrible game to finish and i'm not expecting great things.

No wiggle room, but who else anyway. Bit stark really.

This wasn’t one of those things where marginal events had a disproportionate impact on the score lines. We were outplayed everywhere and outcoached.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:40 am You could change out half the team but i'm not sure that would improve us greatly. There has to be some changes, but i cant see a major overhaul.
When a team malfunctions in the way we did i'm inclined to think that the prep was seriously off key.
I think the best we can hope for is an improvement in our breakdown, better shape in attack, a more punchy defence and cutting out the dull errors that blighted our performance on Saturday.
Its a horrible game to finish and i'm not expecting great things.

That’s quite a lot to sort out tbh. It was discomfiting to see discipline and defence reverting to ‘type’ under pressure, and the repetition of the kicking tactics that don’t suit us overly.

Well that only makes matters worse. Stuart's HIA failed, Lawrence injured and the return of the penalty magnet.

Two Try Guy to the rescue?

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:40 am You could change out half the team but i'm not sure that would improve us greatly. There has to be some changes, but i cant see a major overhaul.
When a team malfunctions in the way we did i'm inclined to think that the prep was seriously off key.
I think the best we can hope for is an improvement in our breakdown, better shape in attack, a more punchy defence and cutting out the dull errors that blighted our performance on Saturday.
Its a horrible game to finish and i'm not expecting great things.

That wouldn't be hard and would make a big difference. We've been absolutely gash at our attacking breakdown for what seems like donkeys. We often blame the 9 or the 10, which is like blaming the lipstick for the pig still being a pig. 9 and 10 are issues, but without the breakdown it is somewhat pointless. We can do it well in small patches, like 2/3 minute stints.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:27 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:40 am You could change out half the team but i'm not sure that would improve us greatly. There has to be some changes, but i cant see a major overhaul.
When a team malfunctions in the way we did i'm inclined to think that the prep was seriously off key.
I think the best we can hope for is an improvement in our breakdown, better shape in attack, a more punchy defence and cutting out the dull errors that blighted our performance on Saturday.
Its a horrible game to finish and i'm not expecting great things.

That wouldn't be hard and would make a big difference. We've been absolutely gash at our attacking breakdown for what seems like donkeys. We often blame the 9 or the 10, which is like blaming the lipstick for the pig still being a pig. 9 and 10 are issues, but without the breakdown it is somewhat pointless. We can do it well in small patches, like 2/3 minute stints.

Not sure how you turn (any of) that around in a week- probably best focus on one area. Which one is the question- defence probably; stop kicking (badly), but then you get more breakdown work.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:31 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:27 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:40 am You could change out half the team but i'm not sure that would improve us greatly. There has to be some changes, but i cant see a major overhaul.
When a team malfunctions in the way we did i'm inclined to think that the prep was seriously off key.
I think the best we can hope for is an improvement in our breakdown, better shape in attack, a more punchy defence and cutting out the dull errors that blighted our performance on Saturday.
Its a horrible game to finish and i'm not expecting great things.

That wouldn't be hard and would make a big difference. We've been absolutely gash at our attacking breakdown for what seems like donkeys. We often blame the 9 or the 10, which is like blaming the lipstick for the pig still being a pig. 9 and 10 are issues, but without the breakdown it is somewhat pointless. We can do it well in small patches, like 2/3 minute stints.

Not sure how you turn (any of) that around in a week- probably best focus on one area. Which one is the question- defence probably; stop kicking (badly), but then you get more breakdown work.

Sorry, I mean the benchmark is so low that any improvement wouldn't be hard.

This may be a bit of a rant…

The reality seems to be that at the moment for whatever reason England’s players are as a whole nowhere near as good as they need to be. Including those not in the squad…
borthwick should be saying to the powers that be that desperate times call for desperate measures and demand a root and branch reform of the whole rfu structure and premiership or resign. Of course none of that will make any difference by the World Cup. Let alone by next week
In short term he needs more experience and more beef. Hate to say but we need a more experienced scrum half. There are one or two not being picked who are not going to be too old for the World Cup… JVP looks risible atm. Tuilagi at least in theory has power. Coka what on earth has happened to him. Marler surely he must be used for World Cup. Never seen this prop Vrr but told he is a real prop prop.
Plus need speed. How on earth can it be a good idea not to get Arundell on the field earlier and then when finally do basically not pass to him.
For Ireland Farrell to start at 10 - certainly not a great 10. But at least he appears to be a seasoned international.
To me until they can win collisions on gainline all else is fantasy. That plus speed that is passed to seems best short term fix
From squad announcement it looks like it’s going to be same again but this time with feeling. I suppose it might work. Unlikely.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:31 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:27 am

fivepointer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:40 am You could change out half the team but i'm not sure that would improve us greatly. There has to be some changes, but i cant see a major overhaul.
When a team malfunctions in the way we did i'm inclined to think that the prep was seriously off key.
I think the best we can hope for is an improvement in our breakdown, better shape in attack, a more punchy defence and cutting out the dull errors that blighted our performance on Saturday.
Its a horrible game to finish and i'm not expecting great things.

That wouldn't be hard and would make a big difference. We've been absolutely gash at our attacking breakdown for what seems like donkeys. We often blame the 9 or the 10, which is like blaming the lipstick for the pig still being a pig. 9 and 10 are issues, but without the breakdown it is somewhat pointless. We can do it well in small patches, like 2/3 minute stints.

Not sure how you turn (any of) that around in a week- probably best focus on one area. Which one is the question- defence probably; stop kicking (badly), but then you get more breakdown work.

On the breakdown question, is the whole approach wrong? Lots of kicking obviously hands over possession and getting the ball back promotes 'jackellers' in many minds. Maybe, more emphasis needs to be on the attacking breakdown. More proficiency in the multi-phase stuff at least keeps the ball. I never played as a forward so can only imagine their thoughts. Trundling back and forth under sessions of kick tennis and being taken out of the game by constant box-kicking may not sit too well?

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:52 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:31 am

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:27 am

That wouldn't be hard and would make a big difference. We've been absolutely gash at our attacking breakdown for what seems like donkeys. We often blame the 9 or the 10, which is like blaming the lipstick for the pig still being a pig. 9 and 10 are issues, but without the breakdown it is somewhat pointless. We can do it well in small patches, like 2/3 minute stints.

Not sure how you turn (any of) that around in a week- probably best focus on one area. Which one is the question- defence probably; stop kicking (badly), but then you get more breakdown work.

On the breakdown question, is the whole approach wrong? Lots of kicking obviously hands over possession and getting the ball back promotes 'jackellers' in many minds. Maybe, more emphasis needs to be on the attacking breakdown. More proficiency in the multi-phase stuff at least keeps the ball. I never played as a forward so can only imagine their thoughts. Trundling back and forth under sessions of kick tennis and being taken out of the game by constant box-kicking may not sit too well?

Good points well made. On the other hand, France kick the leather off the ball, they just do it very well. The kicking idea is about fatigue, breaking up defences and territorial gain in the longer battles, and its actually what Quins (say) were doing very well at their peak. Our fitness looked to be a big issue though, and more breakdowns vs kicking dual is an interesting conundrum. Skunky Boatface was clearly aware of our breakdown issues in the way that he's tasked say Itoje with hitting more rucks- his workload is immense, as he also makes the most tackles, as well as turnovers on Saturday- but even he can't get to all of them. Its a collective failure imo- the intensity at club level isn't there, so the ferocity isn't- its a bit analagous to a lot of our sides when they play their first european game against say Leinster, where there is a purpose, cohesion and intensity up front they haven't experienced before/for a long time, and we always look surprised. Just like when we play SA away.

The problem has been there for a long time. Sometimes you get away with it....France had done a cracking analysis job on us, and executed, and we had no answers (and not just the breakdown).

Look, I only watched the 1st half, but what I saw did not suggest to me that we need to add physicality. We were done by French speed of thought and play, not by their strength. The reason they hit harder is because they hit quicker. They were more intense.

We’re not going to fix that in time for Ireland.

But what we can do is put a rocket up players. Tell them it was unacceptable and that they’re fighting for their careers.

On the individuals…I’ve not seen any mention of Sinckler. I thought he was a disgrace. Our worst player. Zero intensity. Zero effectiveness. Flopping around, waving hands. I would drop him for Collier. If will is fit

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:43 am Look, I only watched the 1st half, but what I saw did not suggest to me that we need to add physicality. We were done by French speed of thought and play, not by their strength. The reason they hit harder is because they hit quicker. They were more intense.

We’re not going to fix that in time for Ireland.

But what we can do is put a rocket up players. Tell them it was unacceptable and that they’re fighting for their careers.

On the individuals…I’ve not seen any mention of Sinckler. I thought he was a disgrace. Our worst player. Zero intensity. Zero effectiveness. Flopping around, waving hands. I would drop him for Collier. If will is fit

Yeah I handed out a big boo to Sinckler on the other thread, and ludlam who lost the plot a bit. And you are right its intensity, sustained, on both sides of the ball.....plus playing a lot smarter, the French were very smart. Just look at what their tacklers did when rolling away.

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:43 am Look, I only watched the 1st half, but what I saw did not suggest to me that we need to add physicality. We were done by French speed of thought and play, not by their strength. The reason they hit harder is because they hit quicker. They were more intense.

We’re not going to fix that in time for Ireland.

But what we can do is put a rocket up players. Tell them it was unacceptable and that they’re fighting for their careers.

On the individuals…I’ve not seen any mention of Sinckler. I thought he was a disgrace. Our worst player. Zero intensity. Zero effectiveness. Flopping around, waving hands. I would drop him for Collier. If will is fit

Looked like our pack was both outmuscled and outrun. Agree that Sinkler had a particularly poor game, didn't look mentally together as well as played badly.
Sean Bean needs to stress that if there's no intensity improvement, this could be the last England game played by some of the group.

stepsider wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:58 am

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:43 am Look, I only watched the 1st half, but what I saw did not suggest to me that we need to add physicality. We were done by French speed of thought and play, not by their strength. The reason they hit harder is because they hit quicker. They were more intense.

We’re not going to fix that in time for Ireland.

But what we can do is put a rocket up players. Tell them it was unacceptable and that they’re fighting for their careers.

On the individuals…I’ve not seen any mention of Sinckler. I thought he was a disgrace. Our worst player. Zero intensity. Zero effectiveness. Flopping around, waving hands. I would drop him for Collier. If will is fit

Looked like our pack was both outmuscled and outrun. Agree that Sinkler had a particularly poor game, didn't look mentally together as well as played badly.
Sean Bean needs to stress that if there's no intensity improvement, this could be the last England game played by some of the group.

Bit of an empty threat for most of the team tbh. There's hardly a big queue in a few positions.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:04 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:58 am

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:43 am Look, I only watched the 1st half, but what I saw did not suggest to me that we need to add physicality. We were done by French speed of thought and play, not by their strength. The reason they hit harder is because they hit quicker. They were more intense.

We’re not going to fix that in time for Ireland.

But what we can do is put a rocket up players. Tell them it was unacceptable and that they’re fighting for their careers.

On the individuals…I’ve not seen any mention of Sinckler. I thought he was a disgrace. Our worst player. Zero intensity. Zero effectiveness. Flopping around, waving hands. I would drop him for Collier. If will is fit

Looked like our pack was both outmuscled and outrun. Agree that Sinkler had a particularly poor game, didn't look mentally together as well as played badly.
Sean Bean needs to stress that if there's no intensity improvement, this could be the last England game played by some of the group.

Bit of an empty threat for most of the team tbh. There's hardly a big queue in a few positions.

There's always a queue. Some potential replacements may not be better, but they'd try harder.

Can't remember in which decade it was said that "it's harder to be dropped by England than initially selected". While there have been some improvements on this score, the presence of e.g. Sinckler, George, Youngs and Farrell in the squad suggests the adage still stands.

stepsider wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:11 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:04 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:58 am
Looked like our pack was both outmuscled and outrun. Agree that Sinkler had a particularly poor game, didn't look mentally together as well as played badly.
Sean Bean needs to stress that if there's no intensity improvement, this could be the last England game played by some of the group.

Bit of an empty threat for most of the team tbh. There's hardly a big queue in a few positions.

There's always a queue. Some potential replacements may not be better, but they'd try harder.

Can't remember in which decade it was said that "it's harder to be dropped by England than initially selected". While there have been some improvements on this score, the presence of e.g. Sinckler, George, Youngs and Farrell in the squad suggests the adage still stands.

Yes, should have qualified that with a viable queue (fancy starting Dan Cole v Ireland? Walker over George?). I don't think this was lack of effort though. Try harder but smarter for me.

There is an element of knee jerk in all this, including from myself.

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:43 am Look, I only watched the 1st half, but what I saw did not suggest to me that we need to add physicality. We were done by French speed of thought and play, not by their strength. The reason they hit harder is because they hit quicker. They were more intense.

We’re not going to fix that in time for Ireland.

But what we can do is put a rocket up players. Tell them it was unacceptable and that they’re fighting for their careers.

On the individuals…I’ve not seen any mention of Sinckler. I thought he was a disgrace. Our worst player. Zero intensity. Zero effectiveness. Flopping around, waving hands. I would drop him for Collier. If will is fit

Agreed on Sinckler. He often puts in disinterested performances but seems to get an easy ride because who else is there when Stuart keep being unavailable. He angered me early on when standing over a tackle and getting completely destroyed by Aldritt, utterly ineffectual. I wouldn’t single him out though, the majority of the team just looked entirely baffled at how to counter the complete malaise that was happening.

I kind of shrugged my shoulders at the end. Utterly outplayed by (let’s be honest) a fabulous display by the French. I doubt Ire would’ve held them on Sat. I’m kinda with Saint Johnny, one of those inexplicable one-off displays that hopefully we won’t see again for another few years. I’ve never seen Jack Willis put in anything less than a 7 in all the time he played for Wasps. Even he was irrelevant on Sat. There will be changes. Two maybe?

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:43 am Look, I only watched the 1st half, but what I saw did not suggest to me that we need to add physicality. We were done by French speed of thought and play, not by their strength. The reason they hit harder is because they hit quicker. They were more intense.

We’re not going to fix that in time for Ireland.

But what we can do is put a rocket up players. Tell them it was unacceptable and that they’re fighting for their careers.

On the individuals…I’ve not seen any mention of Sinckler. I thought he was a disgrace. Our worst player. Zero intensity. Zero effectiveness. Flopping around, waving hands. I would drop him for Collier. If will is fit

Agreed on all counts (apart from playing Collier, which I can't see bringing any improvement). I'd be tempted to name exactly the same XIII (with Manu in for Lawrence for the greatest consistency). We aren't going to make massive differences to quality through selection (especially not with some of the suggestions from some pundits of "rip everything up and put out a scratch XV for Dublin"), but we can at least see to see which of these players stand up to be counted. If we dump the likes of Dombrandt, Smith, JVP, Ludlam, etc, then we lose the opportunity to see if it was just one bad day at the office or if they're just not good enough for the top level and shouldn't be persevered with.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:50 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:43 am Look, I only watched the 1st half, but what I saw did not suggest to me that we need to add physicality. We were done by French speed of thought and play, not by their strength. The reason they hit harder is because they hit quicker. They were more intense.

We’re not going to fix that in time for Ireland.

But what we can do is put a rocket up players. Tell them it was unacceptable and that they’re fighting for their careers.

On the individuals…I’ve not seen any mention of Sinckler. I thought he was a disgrace. Our worst player. Zero intensity. Zero effectiveness. Flopping around, waving hands. I would drop him for Collier. If will is fit

Agreed on all counts (apart from playing Collier, which I can't see bringing any improvement). I'd be tempted to name exactly the same XIII (with Manu in for Lawrence for the greatest consistency). We aren't going to make massive differences to quality through selection (especially not with some of the suggestions from some pundits of "rip everything up and put out a scratch XV for Dublin"), but we can at least see to see which of these players stand up to be counted. If we dump the likes of Dombrandt, Smith, JVP, Ludlam, etc, then we lose the opportunity to see if it was just one bad day at the office or if they're just not good enough for the top level and shouldn't be persevered with.

Puja

Going in with 13 is ballsy .

Is Manu available now? I tend to agree ish, though some individual horror shows shouldn't really be overlooked tbh.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:55 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:50 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:43 am Look, I only watched the 1st half, but what I saw did not suggest to me that we need to add physicality. We were done by French speed of thought and play, not by their strength. The reason they hit harder is because they hit quicker. They were more intense.

We’re not going to fix that in time for Ireland.

But what we can do is put a rocket up players. Tell them it was unacceptable and that they’re fighting for their careers.

On the individuals…I’ve not seen any mention of Sinckler. I thought he was a disgrace. Our worst player. Zero intensity. Zero effectiveness. Flopping around, waving hands. I would drop him for Collier. If will is fit

Agreed on all counts (apart from playing Collier, which I can't see bringing any improvement). I'd be tempted to name exactly the same XIII (with Manu in for Lawrence for the greatest consistency). We aren't going to make massive differences to quality through selection (especially not with some of the suggestions from some pundits of "rip everything up and put out a scratch XV for Dublin"), but we can at least see to see which of these players stand up to be counted. If we dump the likes of Dombrandt, Smith, JVP, Ludlam, etc, then we lose the opportunity to see if it was just one bad day at the office or if they're just not good enough for the top level and shouldn't be persevered with.

Puja

Going in with 13 is ballsy .

Is Manu available now? I tend to agree ish, though some individual horror shows shouldn't really be overlooked tbh.

XIII...we could try recruiting some more RL stars(oh, wait a minute...)

Re. changes, maybe Ford will be the returning messiah (though I wasn't overimpressed with his form for Sale over the week-end)

stepsider wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:06 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:55 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:50 pm

Agreed on all counts (apart from playing Collier, which I can't see bringing any improvement). I'd be tempted to name exactly the same XIII (with Manu in for Lawrence for the greatest consistency). We aren't going to make massive differences to quality through selection (especially not with some of the suggestions from some pundits of "rip everything up and put out a scratch XV for Dublin"), but we can at least see to see which of these players stand up to be counted. If we dump the likes of Dombrandt, Smith, JVP, Ludlam, etc, then we lose the opportunity to see if it was just one bad day at the office or if they're just not good enough for the top level and shouldn't be persevered with.

Puja

Going in with 13 is ballsy .

Is Manu available now? I tend to agree ish, though some individual horror shows shouldn't really be overlooked tbh.

XIII...we could try recruiting some more RL stars(oh, wait a minute...)

Re. changes, maybe Ford will be the returning messiah (though I wasn't overimpressed with his form for Sale over the week-end)

Even Ford would be hard pressed with all the sh8t going on before he gets the ball. Bar two or three kicks (that's a big bar to be fair) I thought Smith wasn't bad frankly. If we go Ford, Farrell, Slade I may lose the plot even more.

Yeah, I’d run it back with the same team and see what the response is. They’ll also hopefully be better coached this week.

Apart from poor kicking, Smith got lots of flak for 'that' try where the French hand magically touched down. But assuming the ref's decision was correct, surely this was a collective failure to protect the ball?

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:09 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:06 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:55 pm
Going in with 13 is ballsy .

Is Manu available now? I tend to agree ish, though some individual horror shows shouldn't really be overlooked tbh.

XIII...we could try recruiting some more RL stars(oh, wait a minute...)

Re. changes, maybe Ford will be the returning messiah (though I wasn't overimpressed with his form for Sale over the week-end)

Even Ford would be hard pressed with all the sh8t going on before he gets the ball. Bar two or three kicks (that's a big bar to be fair) I thought Smith wasn't bad frankly. If we go Ford, Farrell, Slade I may lose the plot even more.

Yeah, smith screwed up twice, badly, early, but didn’t really fade. He just wasn’t great, he wasn’t actively bad. In the first half, at least.

I would also keep it as similar as possible. Just wish there was a way to dump Sinckler, as he needs a bigger rocket, imo. Dombrandt is different. You can clearly say to him that Mercer is on his way back and unless he pulls his socks up, he’ll be out.

Plus, he made a stonking tackle early.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:12 pm Yeah, I’d run it back with the same team and see what the response is. They’ll also hopefully be better coached this week.

Now that would be a bold move from S*** B***** but I could respect it. If I want Dombrandt to get a chance at redemption before a permanent and dishonourable discharge then I guess I have to accept Malins getting one too.

It's hard to picture Farrell not coming back in, but it's a shame that experiment almost wasn't tested? As weird as that may sound, given the result. Everything was so catastrophic it's hard to really judge what difference that selection made. Many seem to think Smith was at the heart of it going so wrong, but I couldn't see that personally.

There was however a significant part of me that thought Faz's arrival had sparked a genuine turn of momentum that we might be able to sustain. I'd be fascinated to see a repeat experiment but there's no way he isn't starting this one. I think I'd favour Faz/Manu than Smith/Faz if that's the case.