Squad Depth - What have we learned?

[stepsider]

Inconsistency of selection continues (Smith-Farrell-Smith-Farrell...), plus players are still being dumped without getting a reasonable chance (OHC, Ford in and out of squad, etc).

Ford isn't close to back to peak form so makes sense not to select him.

OHC was dropped only because he was injured.

The Smith, Farrell, Farrell, Smith, Farrell selection I think was an attempt at horses for courses selection that didn't really work.

If Ford is well short of peak form, why is he in the squad at all?

OHC didn't get recalled to the team despite recovering from injury.

Not convinced about Stanley Baldwin as a selector, any more than Eddie tbh.

[rjjb]

How many of the clubs field a first choice number 8 who is actually an EQP? Is it not a minority (in which case depth is self-evidently going to be an issue) & how has such a situation been allowed to develop? The Premiership shouldn't be a finishing school or pension pot for South Africans.

How can that be fixed tho?

Is it possible for the ERFU just to come up with a regulation limiting the number of Non England Qualified players per squad? The IRFU did this several seasons ago re. the Irish provincial squads. I think the number of NIQ players per province is 3, or maybe 4. It may not be that simple in England - I don't know how much the Union supports the clubs financially. So it may not have much of a say (if any) in what they do or who they employ.

There is some sort of overall constraint (I can't remember the exact detail), but I'm pretty sure it isn't position-specific.

[Banquo]

How many of the clubs field a first choice number 8 who is actually an EQP? Is it not a minority (in which case depth is self-evidently going to be an issue) & how has such a situation been allowed to develop? The Premiership shouldn't be a finishing school or pension pot for South Africans.

How can that be fixed tho?

No idea, as the clubs aren't "controlled" by the RFU. My understanding is there are only general constraints on the clubs' use if EQPs & nothing specific to individual positions.

Think you answered your own question! The situation has 'developed' because clubs do what is best for them. Its a poor situation, because Englands success or otherwse has a huge impact on the game's finances here, and the EQP bribe just can't shape the market enough.

Need some joint vision and plan from PRL and RFU.

[Banquo]

Inconsistency of selection continues (Smith-Farrell-Smith-Farrell...), plus players are still being dumped without getting a reasonable chance (OHC, Ford in and out of squad, etc).

But the main thing we've learnt is that we're going to keep kicking the ball, and again, and again, till everyone falls asleep.

I don't believe that, individually, all our players are hugely inferior to Ireland, France, or Scotland, whilst accepting that we lack 'greats'. But our sum of the parts is inferior. Unless we develop a more varied and coherent attacking strategy, we'll never progress.

Its a bit of a mix for me- France have some players that would have been great in any era, and no weak spot (maybe Ntamack, but even he can be brilliant when not kicking), Ireland have a lot of very very good players and are really well aligned and coached....Scotland are a bit hit and miss, depth being the issue. We are short of quality in a lot of places, but for sure we are miles less than the sum of the parts....and have been for a very long time, bar a couple of years under Jones.

Kicking is the new winning rugby it seems- not new, not interesting, but kicking has its place obviously- but we don't kick well, and our 'attacking kicks' are shyte compared to almost everyone else. Also, kicking the leather off it when down to 14 seems.....mad.

I don't yet blame Slim Boatrace for the selection or coaching. But the launch has been a bit underwhelming; but as noted, he aint spoiled for choice.

Actually I would blame Sean Bean for the coaching, even though it's early days for him.
It is not that difficult to instruct your team to stop kicking the ball away to the other side.

I'm being kind, but kicking IS his go to.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Ludlam, Willis and Dombrandt can develop into Lions backrow - imo

Assuming the other nations pull out…. Yes

And even then it’s a maybe

[Banquo]

How many of the clubs field a first choice number 8 who is actually an EQP? Is it not a minority (in which case depth is self-evidently going to be an issue) & how has such a situation been allowed to develop? The Premiership shouldn't be a finishing school or pension pot for South Africans.

How can that be fixed tho?

Is it possible for the ERFU just to come up with a regulation limiting the number of Non England Qualified players per squad? The IRFU did this several seasons ago re. the Irish provincial squads. I think the number of NIQ players per province is 3, or maybe 4. It may not be that simple in England - I don't know how much the Union supports the clubs financially. So it may not have much of a say (if any) in what they do or who they employ.

would need a new deal with PRL, much harder than with provinces, despite EQP bung.

Should happen prob wont.

[Banquo]

Inconsistency of selection continues (Smith-Farrell-Smith-Farrell...), plus players are still being dumped without getting a reasonable chance (OHC, Ford in and out of squad, etc).

But the main thing we've learnt is that we're going to keep kicking the ball, and again, and again, till everyone falls asleep.

I don't believe that, individually, all our players are hugely inferior to Ireland, France, or Scotland, whilst accepting that we lack 'greats'. But our sum of the parts is inferior. Unless we develop a more varied and coherent attacking strategy, we'll never progress.

Its a bit of a mix for me- France have some players that would have been great in any era, and no weak spot (maybe Ntamack, but even he can be brilliant when not kicking), Ireland have a lot of very very good players and are really well aligned and coached....Scotland are a bit hit and miss, depth being the issue. We are short of quality in a lot of places, but for sure we are miles less than the sum of the parts....and have been for a very long time, bar a couple of years under Jones.

Kicking is the new winning rugby it seems- not new, not interesting, but kicking has its place obviously- but we don't kick well, and our 'attacking kicks' are shyte compared to almost everyone else. Also, kicking the leather off it when down to 14 seems.....mad.

I don't yet blame Slim Boatrace for the selection or coaching. But the launch has been a bit underwhelming; but as noted, he aint spoiled for choice.

- we wouldn't take your halfbackd but would love your depth there and JVP and Ford or Smith are more than good enough to build an attacking team around.
- we wouldn't take your centres given the way ours are playing though, again, there are options. I'd take Tuilqgi over Aki for example and our star 13 couldn't get a game there over Marchant only last year.
- we wouldn't take your back three (well not once Graham is fit) but I've seen people say you don't have anyone to worry the opposition. Nonsense. Every team will worry about what to do about Steward under a high ball. Arundell is scary. Watson is a class operator. Again, if you compare to Ireland, you don't have a Keenan but their wings, while good, operate on enthusiasm rather than ridiculous physical assets. When they are a bit off like on the weekend, they are a bit average (Lowe was actually very poor I thought).

I said our backline wasnt likely to worry Ireland overall, and that I wasn't even sure the back three specifically would- a- in the context of whats inside them, b- in that they are a new unit, and dont look like they could launch a unit counter attack, not that we look to , and c- as individuals they are talented, but Steward is predictable - and his pace containable- as good as he is under the high ball and positionally; Watson a lovely runner, but doesnt link so well; Arundell, bags of talent, but we saw his inexperience. Given time to gel, and with some settled inside backs, they could be very very decent.
We do have a lot of decent players, many of whom would impress in different teams. We don`t have many if any at the very top table.

[Puja]

How many of the clubs field a first choice number 8 who is actually an EQP? Is it not a minority (in which case depth is self-evidently going to be an issue) & how has such a situation been allowed to develop? The Premiership shouldn't be a finishing school or pension pot for South Africans.

How can that be fixed tho?

Is it possible for the ERFU just to come up with a regulation limiting the number of Non England Qualified players per squad? The IRFU did this several seasons ago re. the Irish provincial squads. I think the number of NIQ players per province is 3, or maybe 4. It may not be that simple in England - I don't know how much the Union supports the clubs financially. So it may not have much of a say (if any) in what they do or who they employ.

The last time the funding agreement between the clubs and the RFU was hashed out, we were still in the EU and so any rule on just England players would've been challenged in court and struck down, so instead we had a rule limiting sides to 2 Non-European or Kolpak players in a match-day squad, meaning anyone who could get their hands on a South Africa or European passport didn't count. There is an incentive where some funding is linked to the percentage of EQP in a XXIII over the course of the season, but it's not a huge part of the funding.

New agreement going to get hashed out in a couple of years, so we'll see. Limiting it to 3 foreigners per club isn't necessarily the right call for us though, as I don't know there are 220 top-drawer English players available each weekend, so we'd either need to reduce the number of teams or have a lower quality league.

Is it a huge issue though? Take the example raised of number 8 - we have Simmonds, Dombrandt, BillyV, Ludlam some weeks, Fitz Harding some weeks, we would have Barbeary if he could remain uninjured for more than 30 seconds at a time, and we have youngsters like CCS and Fisilau getting semi-regular game time. That's hardly a "cupboard is bare" situation - we've got more regularly starting 8s than the Scots have franchises.

Puja

[FKAS]

How many international quality 8s has the English system produced recently and I mean the club academy systems.

Dombrandt - came through BUCS
Simmonds - Chiefs academy though he's barely played 8 internationally
Billy V - he did come through the Wasps academy but his upbringing was influenced by time in Wales and his former pro dad
Easter - lower levels, worked his way up
Morgan - came through the Welsh system
Hughes - Fijian/Australian who came over here for the cash (can't blame him he was supporting his family financially)
Zach Mercer - originally in the Glasgow academy before moving down to Bath

It's not really pointing to a conveyor belt of talent we're overlooking.

[FKAS]

Inconsistency of selection continues (Smith-Farrell-Smith-Farrell...), plus players are still being dumped without getting a reasonable chance (OHC, Ford in and out of squad, etc).

Ford isn't close to back to peak form so makes sense not to select him.

OHC was dropped only because he was injured.

The Smith, Farrell, Farrell, Smith, Farrell selection I think was an attempt at horses for courses selection that didn't really work.

If Ford is well short of peak form, why is he in the squad at all?

OHC didn't get recalled to the team despite recovering from injury.

Not convinced about Stanley Baldwin as a selector, any more than Eddie tbh.

It's useful to have players in the squad so that they can learn the systems or in Ford's case help embed the systems. Ford is effectively like having another coach. We'll also want Ford as an option for the world cup so makes little sense to ignore him until the summer.

OHC didn't really do much given his chances and lost out to Watson who came back in to fitness recently. OHC was still in the training squads but cut before the match day squads, I'm sure Borthwick will have talked to him about what he wants him to work on. There's no need to make that public.

[FKAS]

How many of the clubs field a first choice number 8 who is actually an EQP? Is it not a minority (in which case depth is self-evidently going to be an issue) & how has such a situation been allowed to develop? The Premiership shouldn't be a finishing school or pension pot for South Africans.

I have no idea what's going to happen on the wing, but Arundell's selection as a starter yesterday was an absolute shocker by Borthwick - what the hell was he playing at? The lad has minimal experience (6 games?) as a starter in senior rugby & absolutely none on the wing - he's basically trying to learn on the job. Why on earth would you start him there in an away match against the top team gunning for a GS?

Well putting him at fullback isn't going to make it any easier for him is it. This was his third cap and all three have been on the wing. Not a particular stretch.

Well if he has to start internationals at this stage in his career, then it should be in the position that he's most comfortable in & one most suited to his strengths. But what pressing need was there for him to start the match? He's looked a very good bench option to me - why not leave him there until he's gained a bit more international experience?

If Arundell had started at 15 against Ireland there's a large chance his confidence would be in tatters. One of the best kicking sides in rugby.

Not unusual for players to switch from 15 to wing going from club to international level.

That game will have been great experience for him and will have given the coaches a look at what he's like under big game pressure. There was a clamour to play the kid before the game and Borthwick decided to have a look.

[Oakboy]

Inconsistency of selection continues (Smith-Farrell-Smith-Farrell...), plus players are still being dumped without getting a reasonable chance (OHC, Ford in and out of squad, etc).

Ford isn't close to back to peak form so makes sense not to select him.

OHC was dropped only because he was injured.

The Smith, Farrell, Farrell, Smith, Farrell selection I think was an attempt at horses for courses selection that didn't really work.

If Ford is well short of peak form, why is he in the squad at all?

OHC didn't get recalled to the team despite recovering from injury.

Not convinced about Stanley Baldwin as a selector, any more than Eddie tbh.

After RWC, Jones discarded those whom he judged to have peaked: Vunipola x 2, George, Tuiilagi, Ford, Youngs etc. That was his last-chance saloon, a re-build ambition with some merit. He lacked the skill and courage to follow it through.

In all the 'no world class players' debate, where we are now is picking some of those same limited players knowing that they cannot get any better than they have already been. Quite simply, I'd rather we had started the re-build and stuck with it.

SB had to select for the 6N. Now he has no alternative but to maintain the short-termism for the RWC. Hopefully, his squad will show a little imagination but his job must start afterwards.

So far, some of his younger selections - Dombrandt, OHC, Arundel - have not come off. Willis, Chessum and Ludlam (to an extent) have. He inherited JVP who has not moved on. He picked Mitchell (largely ignored by Jones) and he has added something.

On SB's overall selection skills, I agree the jury is out. His main error was Dombrandt. Who knows where T Willis might now be had he been given those same 5 games?

Then, there is Smith. The real deal or not up to it at the top level? I'd start developing Atkinson as soon as the RWC is over.

[jngf]

Ford isn't close to back to peak form so makes sense not to select him.

OHC was dropped only because he was injured.

The Smith, Farrell, Farrell, Smith, Farrell selection I think was an attempt at horses for courses selection that didn't really work.

If Ford is well short of peak form, why is he in the squad at all?

OHC didn't get recalled to the team despite recovering from injury.

Not convinced about Stanley Baldwin as a selector, any more than Eddie tbh.

After RWC, Jones discarded those whom he judged to have peaked: Vunipola x 2, George, Tuiilagi, Ford, Youngs etc. That was his last-chance saloon, a re-build ambition with some merit. He lacked the skill and courage to follow it through.

In all the 'no world class players' debate, where we are now is picking some of those same limited players knowing that they cannot get any better than they have already been. Quite simply, I'd rather we had started the re-build and stuck with it.

SB had to select for the 6N. Now he has no alternative but to maintain the short-termism for the RWC. Hopefully, his squad will show a little imagination but his job must start afterwards.

So far, some of his younger selections - Dombrandt, OHC, Arundel - have not come off. Willis, Chessum and Ludlam (to an extent) have. He inherited JVP who has not moved on. He picked Mitchell (largely ignored by Jones) and he has added something.

On SB's overall selection skills, I agree the jury is out. His main error was Dombrandt. Who knows where T Willis might now be had he been given those same 5 games?

Then, there is Smith. The real deal or not up to it at the top level? I'd start developing Atkinson as soon as the RWC is over.

Can’t help thinking T Willis and Mercer are being somewhat bigged up as the silver bullet to our no.8 selection before either actually playing a test match and it reminds me of when N Hughes was similarly being preemptively bigged up.

[TheNomad]

To be fair to him, Mercer has shown really consistent form in France - arguably the strongest league. I'd reckon he'd do a better job than Dombrandt by a margin.

[Stom]

If Ford is well short of peak form, why is he in the squad at all?

OHC didn't get recalled to the team despite recovering from injury.

Not convinced about Stanley Baldwin as a selector, any more than Eddie tbh.

After RWC, Jones discarded those whom he judged to have peaked: Vunipola x 2, George, Tuiilagi, Ford, Youngs etc. That was his last-chance saloon, a re-build ambition with some merit. He lacked the skill and courage to follow it through.

In all the 'no world class players' debate, where we are now is picking some of those same limited players knowing that they cannot get any better than they have already been. Quite simply, I'd rather we had started the re-build and stuck with it.

SB had to select for the 6N. Now he has no alternative but to maintain the short-termism for the RWC. Hopefully, his squad will show a little imagination but his job must start afterwards.

So far, some of his younger selections - Dombrandt, OHC, Arundel - have not come off. Willis, Chessum and Ludlam (to an extent) have. He inherited JVP who has not moved on. He picked Mitchell (largely ignored by Jones) and he has added something.

On SB's overall selection skills, I agree the jury is out. His main error was Dombrandt. Who knows where T Willis might now be had he been given those same 5 games?

Then, there is Smith. The real deal or not up to it at the top level? I'd start developing Atkinson as soon as the RWC is over.

Can’t help thinking T Willis and Mercer are being somewhat bigged up as the silver bullet to our no.8 selection before either actually playing a test match and it reminds me of when N Hughes was similarly being preemptively bigged up.

Mercer capped, no? And did well, iirc

[Banquo]

After RWC, Jones discarded those whom he judged to have peaked: Vunipola x 2, George, Tuiilagi, Ford, Youngs etc. That was his last-chance saloon, a re-build ambition with some merit. He lacked the skill and courage to follow it through.

In all the 'no world class players' debate, where we are now is picking some of those same limited players knowing that they cannot get any better than they have already been. Quite simply, I'd rather we had started the re-build and stuck with it.

SB had to select for the 6N. Now he has no alternative but to maintain the short-termism for the RWC. Hopefully, his squad will show a little imagination but his job must start afterwards.

So far, some of his younger selections - Dombrandt, OHC, Arundel - have not come off. Willis, Chessum and Ludlam (to an extent) have. He inherited JVP who has not moved on. He picked Mitchell (largely ignored by Jones) and he has added something.

On SB's overall selection skills, I agree the jury is out. His main error was Dombrandt. Who knows where T Willis might now be had he been given those same 5 games?

Then, there is Smith. The real deal or not up to it at the top level? I'd start developing Atkinson as soon as the RWC is over.

Can’t help thinking T Willis and Mercer are being somewhat bigged up as the silver bullet to our no.8 selection before either actually playing a test match and it reminds me of when N Hughes was similarly being preemptively bigged up.

Mercer capped, no? And did well, iirc

Yes and no. IIRC - Did ok v SA as a sub, then had a semi mare v Japan iirc tugged just after half time, that's when Eddie threw him and Loz out never to return. (Eddie was a bit hasty there, quelle surprise)

[francoisfou]

Hooker is a key position and Sugar Babe's choices are rather thin on the ground.
George is indisputably first choice, but then who is there who's proven at Test level?
LCD will go to the World Cup and will then disappear to Montpellier; Walker has been on the bench but hardly used; Blamire had a few caps a couple of season's ago; Singleton too; McGuigan is one who maybe deserves a chance.
Are there any others in the pipeline?

[Danno]

Hooker is a key position and Sugar Babe's choices are rather thin on the ground.
George is indisputably first choice, but then who is there who's proven at Test level?
LCD will go to the World Cup and will then disappear to Montpellier; Walker has been on the bench but hardly used; Blamire had a few caps a couple of season's ago; Singleton too; McGuigan is one who maybe deserves a chance.
Are there any others in the pipeline?

Theo Dan at Sarries is a possible, but he's only just breaking into the senior squad. Very lively in the loose.

[fivepointer]

Tom Dunn has been in the squad but hasnt really got back to the form of 2/3 years ago when he was originally capped (for all of 2 minutes)
We see so little of Newcastle on tv but what i have seen Blamire is playing pretty well. He's certainly worth having another look at. He has the right kind of size, physicality and mobility.

[Mikey Brown]

Hooker is a key position and Sugar Babe's choices are rather thin on the ground.
George is indisputably first choice, but then who is there who's proven at Test level?
LCD will go to the World Cup and will then disappear to Montpellier; Walker has been on the bench but hardly used; Blamire had a few caps a couple of season's ago; Singleton too; McGuigan is one who maybe deserves a chance.
Are there any others in the pipeline?

Theo Dan at Sarries is a possible, but he's only just breaking into the senior squad. Very lively in the loose.

How good is he at the core stuff, throwing, scrum, sitting on the bench unused for 80 minutes?

[Oakboy]

Hooker is a key position and Sugar Babe's choices are rather thin on the ground.
George is indisputably first choice, but then who is there who's proven at Test level?
LCD will go to the World Cup and will then disappear to Montpellier; Walker has been on the bench but hardly used; Blamire had a few caps a couple of season's ago; Singleton too; McGuigan is one who maybe deserves a chance.
Are there any others in the pipeline?

What happened to the young guy that was at Sale? Ogden or something like that. Every time I saw him play he looked special.

[francoisfou]

Wasn't Oghre(?) well thought of?

[jngf]

Part of the reason I’m so keen on the Ludlam, Willis, Dombrandt backrow is the extra dimension it brings to loose play. Ludlam in particular has been handy in this linkman role, feeding the winger on the blindside and Dombrandt has the interlinking skills to be an integral part of three quarter moves. To be honest I was hoping Ben Curry could have brought some of this to the test level too rather than playing the rather tight game we’ve seen in his outings so far which I’m not sure make the most of his talents.

[FKAS]

Hooker is a key position and Sugar Babe's choices are rather thin on the ground.
George is indisputably first choice, but then who is there who's proven at Test level?
LCD will go to the World Cup and will then disappear to Montpellier; Walker has been on the bench but hardly used; Blamire had a few caps a couple of season's ago; Singleton too; McGuigan is one who maybe deserves a chance.
Are there any others in the pipeline?

Theo Dan at Sarries is a possible, but he's only just breaking into the senior squad. Very lively in the loose.

Nic Dolly should be back playing again soon as well.

I still think Blamire will be one to look at again. Has been playing well for Falcons since getting the full time starting job.

Singleton and McGuigan are out for the season I think so they might not be world cup options but could be available for the next 6N.

[FKAS]

Hooker is a key position and Sugar Babe's choices are rather thin on the ground.
George is indisputably first choice, but then who is there who's proven at Test level?
LCD will go to the World Cup and will then disappear to Montpellier; Walker has been on the bench but hardly used; Blamire had a few caps a couple of season's ago; Singleton too; McGuigan is one who maybe deserves a chance.
Are there any others in the pipeline?

What happened to the young guy that was at Sale? Ogden or something like that. Every time I saw him play he looked special.

Curtis Langdon? He's playing over in France having joined Wuss for more game time at very much the wrong time. He'll be at Saints for next season.