Page 2 of 2
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:46 am
by Mellsblue
Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 9:39 am
What we might want to look at is why a number of players have gone backwards when spending time in the national setup.
Whereas Wales got better…
Not that I’d want Gatland as coach.
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:49 am
by Mellsblue
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:28 am
Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 9:39 am
What we might want to look at is why a number of players have gone backwards when spending time in the national setup.
Or whether the Prem is reducing in quality and as such the players look better in the league but are then less effective come international rugby.
Last season Saints conceded 86 tries and finished 4th in 2012/13 London Welsh were relegated have only conceded 67, in 2018/19 when we last made the final Falcons finished bottom have conceded 66 (same number Tigers conceded and finished third last season). It's not Saints either it's across the league, it's easier to score now and come international games it's not a big shock when we start to struggle, particularly in defence.
Comparing 12/13 to last season is apples and pears as, to some extent, is comparing to 18/19. Assuming you have a point about struggling in defence due to Prem trends you’d therefore think that we’d excel in attack, yet…
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:59 am
by Mellsblue
‘“I think we’d all agree he’s a world-class 10, but last week I felt he was a world-class 15 as well,” Sinfield said of Smith.’
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/46a9 ... 8fc0a312ab
Hopefully this, and Wiggler on Farrell, is just for the world at large rather than what they actually believe. It’s really worrying if they set the bar this low. Do they think they’re doing a good job?!?!?
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:04 pm
by Mellsblue
From the same article, and even more worryingly;
‘Anthony Watson was going to be England’s second option at full back’
As we all know, Watson has never played 15…
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:00 pm
by Banquo
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:59 am
‘“I think we’d all agree he’s a world-class 10, but last week I felt he was a world-class 15 as well,” Sinfield said of Smith.’
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/46a9 ... 8fc0a312ab
Hopefully this, and Wiggler on Farrell, is just for the world at large rather than what they actually believe. It’s really worrying if they set the bar this low. Do they think they’re doing a good job?!?!?
wtaf
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:10 pm
by FKAS
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:49 am
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:28 am
Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 9:39 am
What we might want to look at is why a number of players have gone backwards when spending time in the national setup.
Or whether the Prem is reducing in quality and as such the players look better in the league but are then less effective come international rugby.
Last season Saints conceded 86 tries and finished 4th in 2012/13 London Welsh were relegated have only conceded 67, in 2018/19 when we last made the final Falcons finished bottom have conceded 66 (same number Tigers conceded and finished third last season). It's not Saints either it's across the league, it's easier to score now and come international games it's not a big shock when we start to struggle, particularly in defence.
Comparing 12/13 to last season is apples and pears as, to some extent, is comparing to 18/19. Assuming you have a point about struggling in defence due to Prem trends you’d therefore think that we’d excel in attack, yet…
Hardly going to sharpen our attacking skills against lesser defences.
The financial state of rugby clubs in England has come back to bite. There's no Kiwi or Aussie incomings following the RWC like there used to be. Barely any Boks. Sure they tended to be towards the end of their careers but those guys added class and were like player/coaches. There's less big name players now, is it a shock we're struggling to improve our propping stocks when Nic Schonert is up there with the top earning tightheads in the league? No Hayman or Castro for the younger guys to test themselves against now (in games or training).
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:26 pm
by Mellsblue
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:10 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:49 am
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:28 am
Or whether the Prem is reducing in quality and as such the players look better in the league but are then less effective come international rugby.
Last season Saints conceded 86 tries and finished 4th in 2012/13 London Welsh were relegated have only conceded 67, in 2018/19 when we last made the final Falcons finished bottom have conceded 66 (same number Tigers conceded and finished third last season). It's not Saints either it's across the league, it's easier to score now and come international games it's not a big shock when we start to struggle, particularly in defence.
Comparing 12/13 to last season is apples and pears as, to some extent, is comparing to 18/19. Assuming you have a point about struggling in defence due to Prem trends you’d therefore think that we’d excel in attack, yet…
Hardly going to sharpen our attacking skills against lesser defences.
The financial state of rugby clubs in England has come back to bite. There's no Kiwi or Aussie incomings following the RWC like there used to be. Barely any Boks. Sure they tended to be towards the end of their careers but those guys added class and were like player/coaches. There's less big name players now, is it a shock we're struggling to improve our propping stocks when Nic Schonert is up there with the top earning tightheads in the league? No Hayman or Castro for the younger guys to test themselves against now (in games or training).
Have the defences reduced in quality or the attack improved? Sneaky Backhander and team are desperately trying to prove it’s both. Not that I think there’s causation.
Agreed on the salary cap issues. Which is why I agree that it needs to go back up.
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:35 pm
by Numbers
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:04 pm
From the same article, and even more worryingly;
‘Anthony Watson was going to be England’s second option at full back’
As we all know, Watson has never played 15…
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rug ... 75486.html
Hmmm....
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:55 pm
by Stom
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:10 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:49 am
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:28 am
Or whether the Prem is reducing in quality and as such the players look better in the league but are then less effective come international rugby.
Last season Saints conceded 86 tries and finished 4th in 2012/13 London Welsh were relegated have only conceded 67, in 2018/19 when we last made the final Falcons finished bottom have conceded 66 (same number Tigers conceded and finished third last season). It's not Saints either it's across the league, it's easier to score now and come international games it's not a big shock when we start to struggle, particularly in defence.
Comparing 12/13 to last season is apples and pears as, to some extent, is comparing to 18/19. Assuming you have a point about struggling in defence due to Prem trends you’d therefore think that we’d excel in attack, yet…
Hardly going to sharpen our attacking skills against lesser defences.
The financial state of rugby clubs in England has come back to bite. There's no Kiwi or Aussie incomings following the RWC like there used to be. Barely any Boks. Sure they tended to be towards the end of their careers but those guys added class and were like player/coaches. There's less big name players now, is it a shock we're struggling to improve our propping stocks when Nic Schonert is up there with the top earning tightheads in the league? No Hayman or Castro for the younger guys to test themselves against now (in games or training).
Who is there in Ireland, though?
They're hardly flush with high quality imports... In fact, you'd probably say it's Kitschoff, Snyman, Cordero...and that's it.
There's literally only France who have this benefit, and they've gone out in the quarters.
It's not the players, it's the standard of coaching, and the fugue around the England team.
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:00 pm
by Puja
Stom wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:55 pm
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 1:10 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:49 am
Comparing 12/13 to last season is apples and pears as, to some extent, is comparing to 18/19. Assuming you have a point about struggling in defence due to Prem trends you’d therefore think that we’d excel in attack, yet…
Hardly going to sharpen our attacking skills against lesser defences.
The financial state of rugby clubs in England has come back to bite. There's no Kiwi or Aussie incomings following the RWC like there used to be. Barely any Boks. Sure they tended to be towards the end of their careers but those guys added class and were like player/coaches. There's less big name players now, is it a shock we're struggling to improve our propping stocks when Nic Schonert is up there with the top earning tightheads in the league? No Hayman or Castro for the younger guys to test themselves against now (in games or training).
Who is there in Ireland, though?
They're hardly flush with high quality imports... In fact, you'd probably say it's Kitschoff, Snyman, Cordero...and that's it.
There's literally only France who have this benefit, and they've gone out in the quarters.
It's not the players, it's the standard of coaching, and the fugue around the England team.
The difference in Ireland is that they condense everybody into four regions (and effectively have two major ones where the majority of talent is hothoused). They might not need imports to have high quality everywhere for players to bounce off - with 10 teams, we do.
Puja
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:00 pm
by Puja
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:21 pm
by Mellsblue
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:00 pm
Fake news.
Puja
The idea that Watson knows where he’d like to play and has played better than we do on the EMB is ridiculous.
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:51 pm
by Banquo
Loads of issues in our game e.g.
Structure isn't geared to excellence at national level
Development pathways are patchy to poor, esp post 18
Coaching is patchy and not meritocratic (ie any old muppet can be a qualified coach)
Participation in the men's game dropping off a cliff
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:52 pm
by Epaminondas Pules
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:59 am
‘“I think we’d all agree he’s a world-class 10, but last week I felt he was a world-class 15 as well,” Sinfield said of Smith.’
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/46a9 ... 8fc0a312ab
Hopefully this, and Wiggler on Farrell, is just for the world at large rather than what they actually believe. It’s really worrying if they set the bar this low. Do they think they’re doing a good job?!?!?
Its just soundbites
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:06 pm
by Oakboy
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:28 am
Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 9:39 am
What we might want to look at is why a number of players have gone backwards when spending time in the national setup.
Or whether the Prem is reducing in quality and as such the players look better in the league but are then less effective come international rugby.
Last season Saints conceded 86 tries and finished 4th in 2012/13 London Welsh were relegated have only conceded 67, in 2018/19 when we last made the final Falcons finished bottom have conceded 66 (same number Tigers conceded and finished third last season). It's not Saints either it's across the league, it's easier to score now and come international games it's not a big shock when we start to struggle, particularly in defence.
Just asking - how reliable a statistic is 'tries conceded'? Defence coaches might see significance in the season's tally but I doubt players care that much. So often, a side 6 tries (or 35 points) up, say, takes the foot off the pedal allowing the opposition a few soft run-ins. Lots of good teams just concentrate on winning, don't they? Maybe, the bonus point system taints things too.
Re: Team of the Quarters
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:12 pm
by p/d
Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:52 pm
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:59 am
‘“I think we’d all agree he’s a world-class 10, but last week I felt he was a world-class 15 as well,” Sinfield said of Smith.’
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/46a9 ... 8fc0a312ab
Hopefully this, and Wiggler on Farrell, is just for the world at large rather than what they actually believe. It’s really worrying if they set the bar this low. Do they think they’re doing a good job?!?!?
Its just soundbites
Indeed. "we always knew he was a 15 plying his trade as an average club rugby 10. What we didn't realise at the time was that he is also a rank average 15"