RugbyRebels

Wallpaperman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2024 9:07 pm

How come there are only 4 Ospreys in the squad (which presumably would have been 3 if Johnny Williams wasn’t looking at a ban) ? There are of course injuries to Lake, Jac Morgan and one or 2 others who would have been picked. I thought Fender would get in but perhaps he is injured too. However, Sam Parry, Keenan Giles and Rhys Davies can all feel very hard done by.

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 8:51 am

Wallpaperman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2024 9:07 pm

How come there are only 4 Ospreys in the squad (which presumably would have been 3 if Johnny Williams wasn’t looking at a ban) ? There are of course injuries to Lake, Jac Morgan and one or 2 others who would have been picked. I thought Fender would get in but perhaps he is injured too. However, Sam Parry, Keenan Giles and Rhys Davies can all feel very hard done by.

You're right, Fender's got an arm injury which looks to have ruled him out of the 6n. Lake and Morgan would have been selected if fit, with a few others like Morris and Nagy ( if qualified if course) in the mix if not injured. As for the others, as we know Gatland's selection criteria can be fairly opaque in times.

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 10:41 am

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 8:51 am

Wallpaperman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2024 9:07 pm

How come there are only 4 Ospreys in the squad (which presumably would have been 3 if Johnny Williams wasn’t looking at a ban) ? There are of course injuries to Lake, Jac Morgan and one or 2 others who would have been picked. I thought Fender would get in but perhaps he is injured too. However, Sam Parry, Keenan Giles and Rhys Davies can all feel very hard done by.

You're right, Fender's got an arm injury which looks to have ruled him out of the 6n. Lake and Morgan would have been selected if fit, with a few others like Morris and Nagy ( if qualified if course) in the mix if not injured. As for the others, as we know Gatland's selection criteria can be fairly opaque in times.

This is the Ospreys' injury list per WOL:

Max Nagy
Luke Morgan
Alex Cuthbert
Toby Fricker
Dom Morris
Owen Williams
Reuben Morgan-Williams
Nicky Smith
Rhys Henry
Rhys Davies
Will Griffiths
Huw Sutton
Tristan Davies
Justin Tipuric
Jac Morgan
Morgan Morris
Harri Deaves
Dewi Lake
James Fender
Garyn Phillips
George North (ill)

Which is one reason why we're in a bad place. Rhys Davies is on the list - don't know how bad it is though. But definitely agreed that Parry and Giles could have been called up.

I wonder if someone else will come in for LRZ?

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 8:51 am

Wallpaperman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 16, 2024 9:07 pm

How come there are only 4 Ospreys in the squad (which presumably would have been 3 if Johnny Williams wasn’t looking at a ban) ? There are of course injuries to Lake, Jac Morgan and one or 2 others who would have been picked. I thought Fender would get in but perhaps he is injured too. However, Sam Parry, Keenan Giles and Rhys Davies can all feel very hard done by.

You're right, Fender's got an arm injury which looks to have ruled him out of the 6n. Lake and Morgan would have been selected if fit, with a few others like Morris and Nagy ( if qualified if course) in the mix if not injured. As for the others, as we know Gatland's selection criteria can be fairly opaque in times.

Wallpaperman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 11:20 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 10:41 am

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 8:51 am

You're right, Fender's got an arm injury which looks to have ruled him out of the 6n. Lake and Morgan would have been selected if fit, with a few others like Morris and Nagy ( if qualified if course) in the mix if not injured. As for the others, as we know Gatland's selection criteria can be fairly opaque in times.

This is the Ospreys' injury list per WOL:

Max Nagy
Luke Morgan
Alex Cuthbert
Toby Fricker
Dom Morris
Owen Williams
Reuben Morgan-Williams
Nicky Smith
Rhys Henry
Rhys Davies
Will Griffiths
Huw Sutton
Tristan Davies
Justin Tipuric
Jac Morgan
Morgan Morris
Harri Deaves
Dewi Lake
James Fender
Garyn Phillips
George North (ill)

Which is one reason why we're in a bad place. Rhys Davies is on the list - don't know how bad it is though. But definitely agreed that Parry and Giles could have been called up.

I wonder if someone else will come in for LRZ?

If they do replace LRZ, I’ll bet that it’s not an Osprey.

That’s quite an injury list, including the first, second and third choice 7s ! Thanks for your reply re Rhys Davies. I think he could be a Jake Ball type player for Wales. And I was surprised that Fender didn’t get a call up, that explains it.

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 12:50 pm Re: Nagy, the ospreys were seeking clarification on that whether his residency started in 2018 when he first moved to Wales to study, or later. I've still not heard what the outcome was ( or indeed whether he does want to represent Wales), but given the injury it's a bit of a moot point at the moment. Worth clarifying for the future though, he was playing well before he got injured.

Numbers wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 1:23 pm

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 12:50 pm Re: Nagy, the ospreys were seeking clarification on that whether his residency started in 2018 when he first moved to Wales to study, or later. I've still not heard what the outcome was ( or indeed whether he does want to represent Wales), but given the injury it's a bit of a moot point at the moment. Worth clarifying for the future though, he was playing well before he got injured.

I think personally the Winnett is the future at 15, he's very consistent and not prone to errors, it would be worth getting some depth in that position tho as injuries are common place at test level so we really need at least 3-4 players up to standard for each position, this is a long way off unfortunately, I feel a wooden spoon coming on.

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 3:12 pm I think we can beat Italy. It's a pretty low bar, but I think that's still very doable, so I think we'll avoid the spoon. But beat anyone else? Only if they find themselves with a similar injury/unavailable list. Without doing any research on the opposition I think 5th place.

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 3:59 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 3:12 pm I think we can beat Italy. It's a pretty low bar, but I think that's still very doable, so I think we'll avoid the spoon. But beat anyone else? Only if they find themselves with a similar injury/unavailable list. Without doing any research on the opposition I think 5th place.

Realistically that looks about right , and anything more than that would be a plus

After the RWC I had a bit of confidence. We'd lost a few of the old guard but blooded some youngsters who stood up well overall, with some like morgan outstanding. Added to that, the unexpected bonus that the regional austerity brought was that of more young players putting their hand up. Add in a new Welsh wonderkid in feyi- Waboso, and even a month ago I was quietly optimistic. The injuries on top of the old guard leaving have dented that and the IFW/LRZ defections were a real kick in the nuts.

The positive is though that the youngsters blooded last year will come back at some point, and more new players will be getting experience in the meantime. It might be difficult for a while but we could still have a competitive generation of players. What the WRU needs to do is reduce the risk that more players will opt not to play for Wales or worse play against us. I don't fancy another decade or two in the wilderness, the 80's and 90's were bad enough.

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 10:26 pm

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 3:59 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 3:12 pm I think we can beat Italy. It's a pretty low bar, but I think that's still very doable, so I think we'll avoid the spoon. But beat anyone else? Only if they find themselves with a similar injury/unavailable list. Without doing any research on the opposition I think 5th place.

Realistically that looks about right , and anything more than that would be a plus

My biggest fear now is watching Feyi-Waboso running in tries against us in a few weeks. That would be hard to take.

And Gatland didn't even speak to him to try to change his mind. Great effort. I wonder if the WRU even lifted a finger to find a way to keep him Welsh.

On a vaguely positive note, at least LRZ won't be playing for the opposition, and he might be back in a few years if the game doesn't suit him.

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 10:26 pm

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 3:59 pm

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 3:12 pm I think we can beat Italy. It's a pretty low bar, but I think that's still very doable, so I think we'll avoid the spoon. But beat anyone else? Only if they find themselves with a similar injury/unavailable list. Without doing any research on the opposition I think 5th place.

Realistically that looks about right , and anything more than that would be a plus

After the RWC I had a bit of confidence. We'd lost a few of the old guard but blooded some youngsters who stood up well overall, with some like morgan outstanding. Added to that, the unexpected bonus that the regional austerity brought was that of more young players putting their hand up. Add in a new Welsh wonderkid in feyi- Waboso, and even a month ago I was quietly optimistic. The injuries on top of the old guard leaving have dented that and the IFW/LRZ defections were a real kick in the nuts.

The positive is though that the youngsters blooded last year will come back at some point, and more new players will be getting experience in the meantime. It might be difficult for a while but we could still have a competitive generation of players. What the WRU needs to do is reduce the risk that more players will opt not to play for Wales or worse play against us. I don't fancy another decade or two in the wilderness, the 80's and 90's were bad enough.

My biggest fear now is watching Feyi-Waboso running in tries against us in a few weeks. That would be hard to take.

And Gatland didn't even speak to him to try to change his mind. Great effort. I wonder if the WRU even lifted a finger to find a way to keep him Welsh.

On a vaguely positive note, at least LRZ won't be playing for the opposition, and he might be back in a few years if the game doesn't suit him.

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 7:48 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 10:26 pm

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 3:59 pm

Realistically that looks about right , and anything more than that would be a plus

My biggest fear now is watching Feyi-Waboso running in tries against us in a few weeks. That would be hard to take.

And Gatland didn't even speak to him to try to change his mind. Great effort. I wonder if the WRU even lifted a finger to find a way to keep him Welsh.

On a vaguely positive note, at least LRZ won't be playing for the opposition, and he might be back in a few years if the game doesn't suit him.

Yes from what I've read it does seem that Borthwick and the RFU were in regular communication with IFW and Exeter about England representation, whereas all I've read from the WRU side is a phone call with Mike Foreshaw. Of course it could be that they have tried many times and IFW just didnt respond perhaps knowing that the England offer was better. But if the WRU did dtop the ball on this one, they need to acknowledge and learn from it before we lose more young players to England the NFL, pro- celebrity basket weaving and anything else we cant compete with financially.

Numbers wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 9:39 am

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 7:48 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 17, 2024 10:26 pm
My biggest fear now is watching Feyi-Waboso running in tries against us in a few weeks. That would be hard to take.

And Gatland didn't even speak to him to try to change his mind. Great effort. I wonder if the WRU even lifted a finger to find a way to keep him Welsh.

On a vaguely positive note, at least LRZ won't be playing for the opposition, and he might be back in a few years if the game doesn't suit him.

Yes from what I've read it does seem that Borthwick and the RFU were in regular communication with IFW and Exeter about England representation, whereas all I've read from the WRU side is a phone call with Mike Foreshaw. Of course it could be that they have tried many times and IFW just didnt respond perhaps knowing that the England offer was better. But if the WRU did dtop the ball on this one, they need to acknowledge and learn from it before we lose more young players to England the NFL, pro- celebrity basket weaving and anything else we cant compete with financially.

I thas nothing to do with offers but more circumstance as far as I see it, he has already had to restart his medical degree and doesn't want to have to start it all over again, if he plays for England he can stay put and continue his studies, if he chose Wales the cap rule would mean he'd have to go to a Welsh club to continue playing for us when his contract is up so he would have to move again and that would have a hugely detrimental effect on his studies. If anything is to blame it's the 25 cap rule.

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 11:32 am

Numbers wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 9:39 am

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 7:48 am

Yes from what I've read it does seem that Borthwick and the RFU were in regular communication with IFW and Exeter about England representation, whereas all I've read from the WRU side is a phone call with Mike Foreshaw. Of course it could be that they have tried many times and IFW just didnt respond perhaps knowing that the England offer was better. But if the WRU did dtop the ball on this one, they need to acknowledge and learn from it before we lose more young players to England the NFL, pro- celebrity basket weaving and anything else we cant compete with financially.

I thas nothing to do with offers but more circumstance as far as I see it, he has already had to restart his medical degree and doesn't want to have to start it all over again, if he plays for England he can stay put and continue his studies, if he chose Wales the cap rule would mean he'd have to go to a Welsh club to continue playing for us when his contract is up so he would have to move again and that would have a hugely detrimental effect on his studies. If anything is to blame it's the 25 cap rule.

You're absolutely right, those were the reasons he gave for taking the England route, that in England his rugby career dovetails nicely with his medical studies. Whereas as you say, a Welsh cap would mean a return to Wales once his Exeter contract expires, with all the ensuing disruption or stay and give up his international career if he didnt have 25 caps.

The thing that stood out for me since then is the apparent disparity between the contact the RFU and the WRU had with him. By reports in the press England have been very engaged with him, whereas the WRU didn't seem to have been so proactive. Maybe it was a case of "you must play in Wales, no exceptions" and they didn't want him to be a special case. But I havent heard anything to say the WRU tried to make some accommodation, say delay a return to Wales until his studies are completed. If the WRU are inflexible with the 25 caps rule ( which they're entitled to be) we probably will see more players taking a path not involving Wales.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 1:50 pm The overseas issue is likely to get worse before it gets better. Japanese rugby seems to have a lot of money at the moment; I'd much rather our squad was European-based than halfway across the world.

If Team Wales's performances fall badly over the next year, then so will the WRU's income. Better to have a competitive team bringing in the crowds and use that money to help rebuild the regions than watch everything crash and burn. I'm hopeful that a GB league takes off but that's probably not on the cards in the very short term and were struggling to compete now.

Numbers wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 1:16 pm

pompey-zebra wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 11:32 am

Numbers wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 9:39 am

I thas nothing to do with offers but more circumstance as far as I see it, he has already had to restart his medical degree and doesn't want to have to start it all over again, if he plays for England he can stay put and continue his studies, if he chose Wales the cap rule would mean he'd have to go to a Welsh club to continue playing for us when his contract is up so he would have to move again and that would have a hugely detrimental effect on his studies. If anything is to blame it's the 25 cap rule.

You're absolutely right, those were the reasons he gave for taking the England route, that in England his rugby career dovetails nicely with his medical studies. Whereas as you say, a Welsh cap would mean a return to Wales once his Exeter contract expires, with all the ensuing disruption or stay and give up his international career if he didnt have 25 caps.

The thing that stood out for me since then is the apparent disparity between the contact the RFU and the WRU had with him. By reports in the press England have been very engaged with him, whereas the WRU didn't seem to have been so proactive. Maybe it was a case of "you must play in Wales, no exceptions" and they didn't want him to be a special case. But I havent heard anything to say the WRU tried to make some accommodation, say delay a return to Wales until his studies are completed. If the WRU are inflexible with the 25 caps rule ( which they're entitled to be) we probably will see more players taking a path not involving Wales.

I don't think the WRU have done anything to help secure his allegiance in this instance, the best thing to do now would eb to scrap the rule totally imo. Having players playing abroad generally helps them to improve their game so I other than the availability for full training camps and th fallow week during the 6 nations there's no reason for it to exist, especially if it isn't working because the wages over in Wales are too low, if anything it's making the situation a whole lot worse.

If we look at the squad we have Jenkins, Reffell and Griffin playing in England, if our Captain can be subject to the fallow week return and shortened preparation time then can't others?

Numbers wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 3:33 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 1:50 pm The overseas issue is likely to get worse before it gets better. Japanese rugby seems to have a lot of money at the moment; I'd much rather our squad was European-based than halfway across the world.

If Team Wales's performances fall badly over the next year, then so will the WRU's income. Better to have a competitive team bringing in the crowds and use that money to help rebuild the regions than watch everything crash and burn. I'm hopeful that a GB league takes off but that's probably not on the cards in the very short term and were struggling to compete now.

Not sure a GB would ever be viable, the English would want at least 6 teams and with 4 Welsh sides, 4 Irish sides and 2 Scottish sides that is too many to make it work. If a couple more english team go to the wall and a couple of regions then tyhat's the only way it can be accomodated so pretty unllikely imo.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 4:18 pm

Numbers wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 3:33 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 1:50 pm The overseas issue is likely to get worse before it gets better. Japanese rugby seems to have a lot of money at the moment; I'd much rather our squad was European-based than halfway across the world.

If Team Wales's performances fall badly over the next year, then so will the WRU's income. Better to have a competitive team bringing in the crowds and use that money to help rebuild the regions than watch everything crash and burn. I'm hopeful that a GB league takes off but that's probably not on the cards in the very short term and were struggling to compete now.

Not sure a GB would ever be viable, the English would want at least 6 teams and with 4 Welsh sides, 4 Irish sides and 2 Scottish sides that is too many to make it work. If a couple more english team go to the wall and a couple of regions then tyhat's the only way it can be accomodated so pretty unllikely imo.

I think realistically it would be 2 pro leagues.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 4:18 pm

Numbers wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 3:33 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 1:50 pm The overseas issue is likely to get worse before it gets better. Japanese rugby seems to have a lot of money at the moment; I'd much rather our squad was European-based than halfway across the world.

If Team Wales's performances fall badly over the next year, then so will the WRU's income. Better to have a competitive team bringing in the crowds and use that money to help rebuild the regions than watch everything crash and burn. I'm hopeful that a GB league takes off but that's probably not on the cards in the very short term and were struggling to compete now.

Not sure a GB would ever be viable, the English would want at least 6 teams and with 4 Welsh sides, 4 Irish sides and 2 Scottish sides that is too many to make it work. If a couple more english team go to the wall and a couple of regions then tyhat's the only way it can be accomodated so pretty unllikely imo.

I think realistically it would be 2 pro leagues.

Numbers wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 4:43 pm

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 4:18 pm

Numbers wrote: ↑Thu Jan 18, 2024 3:33 pm

Not sure a GB would ever be viable, the English would want at least 6 teams and with 4 Welsh sides, 4 Irish sides and 2 Scottish sides that is too many to make it work. If a couple more english team go to the wall and a couple of regions then tyhat's the only way it can be accomodated so pretty unllikely imo.

I think realistically it would be 2 pro leagues.

Would any of the regions be in the top league? If all teams were in there would eb 9 teams per league, the Scottish teams are better than we are and all the Irish teams so that leaves 3 spots in the Iter 1 competition, like SOM says the only viable league alternative would be an Anglo-Welsh one to my mind.