Agreed with all of that and why I've been saying MSmith is better suited to 15 at international level. *Such* a creative player and runner, and so talented, but how many times when "Marcus has been our only bright spot" has that been because he's made the break himself and how many times has it been because he's opened gaps for the rest of his team to run through?
Puja
Still don’t agree on Smith at 15 tho, soz
I recognise your reticence towards it, and obviously we're back to one swallow not making someone your boyfriend, but didn't he play pretty well there today, without any full-back errors?
Puja
thought he was no better than average, three turnovers, and caught out positionally at least once, don't recall him hitting the line other than counters.
As before, has to really get club time there imo.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2025 8:46 pm
Lawrence is starting to look better but would moving to a conventional 12 slot with Beard, say, at 13 suit him now? I think changing the 12/13 needs to wait till 1. the 10/15 experiment settles and 2. the left wing is established (possibly Sleightholme, possibly not).
You really aren't for dropping Slade are you Dors?
He should have been jettisoned before the AI. By not doing so we are still debating his inclusion.
Again we create a rod for our own back. With a win we we will assume his role was a factor and he ei run out in 2 weeks with 12 on his back
Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2025 8:46 pm
Lawrence is starting to look better but would moving to a conventional 12 slot with Beard, say, at 13 suit him now? I think changing the 12/13 needs to wait till 1. the 10/15 experiment settles and 2. the left wing is established (possibly Sleightholme, possibly not).
You really aren't for dropping Slade are you Dors?
He should have been jettisoned before the AI. By not doing so we are still debating his inclusion.
Again we create a rod for our own back. With a win we we will assume his role was a factor and he ei run out in 2 weeks with 12 on his back
Changes? 11, 12 & 15.
what was wrong with sleightholme, mullett aside
Odd isn’t it? But I really struggle to see him as the best fit. Maybe it is just the mullet ‘tache combo that i can’t see past.
Banquo wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2025 10:44 pm
Still don’t agree on Smith at 15 tho, soz
I recognise your reticence towards it, and obviously we're back to one swallow not making someone your boyfriend, but didn't he play pretty well there today, without any full-back errors?
Puja
thought he was no better than average, three turnovers, and caught out positionally at least once, don't recall him hitting the line other than counters.
As before, has to really get club time there imo.
This. Hence my much maligned Daly preference I pre team announcement
Agreed with all of that and why I've been saying MSmith is better suited to 15 at international level. *Such* a creative player and runner, and so talented, but how many times when "Marcus has been our only bright spot" has that been because he's made the break himself and how many times has it been because he's opened gaps for the rest of his team to run through?
Puja
Still don’t agree on Smith at 15 tho, soz
I recognise your reticence towards it, and obviously we're back to one swallow not making someone your boyfriend, but didn't he play pretty well there today, without any full-back errors?
Puja
He lost the kicking battle a couple of times as they caught him out of position but they didn’t really test him with much else - I’m all for playing your own game but France didn’t make the most of a 10 playing at 15 - and he got himself in the wrong position in d a couple of time.
I recognise your reticence towards it, and obviously we're back to one swallow not making someone your boyfriend, but didn't he play pretty well there today, without any full-back errors?
Puja
thought he was no better than average, three turnovers, and caught out positionally at least once, don't recall him hitting the line other than counters.
As before, has to really get club time there imo.
thought he was no better than average, three turnovers, and caught out positionally at least once, don't recall him hitting the line other than counters.
As before, has to really get club time there imo.
Daly
correctly used as a wing
Fair play to Daly. Never thought to see him in an England shirt again. He ran a nice line for his try, timed it just right, and showed a bit of the old gas. He will be feeling well-chuffed tonight.
Fair play to Daly. Never thought to see him in an England shirt again. He ran a nice line for his try, timed it just right, and showed a bit of the old gas. He will be feeling well-chuffed tonight.
Nice to see those plays are there as an option for England, we've barely used the back three except out wide over the last year. Fin at 10 got them off their wings and up from 15 more involved. Suits his style of play.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2025 10:58 pm
Yeah it will be interesting to see back how many of those kicks away from Smith were really on. It did feel like quite a few, and obviously the charge down at the beginning looked pretty panicked.
He did look very composed in that closing period though.
Agree the call on Baxter’s first scrum seems odd. When they recognise he’s dominating it makes you question why the elbow on the floor is used to decide that call, but it’s far too late for me to really start understanding scrums.
Smith’s kick for the freeman try was a 50-50, it worked so fair play but I hate it when we kick away in their 22. Seems a hangover from Eddie/Faz. Lawrence particularly likes to drop it on the toe but isn’t very good at it, especially considering his carrying ability
Yup. When a prop keeps a much fancied opposition scrum under wraps, anything else is optional.
Thought Heyes showed up well actually. Didn't do much in the loose, but his scrummaging was very decent and a good mark of how well he's kicked on.
Puja
Unfortunately Genge coughed up dumb pens, not for the first time. Baxter after the 1st scrum was very impressive
I don't recall those. What were they for? I mean, I'll see them in the m-b-m soon, but I genuinely don't remember them.
Thought Baxter was robbed in the first scrum - just because your elbow touches the floor first doesn't mean it's your offence, not when the tighthead is diving at the floor like someone's dropped a fiver. But you're right that his comeback was hugely impressive. He looked a touch raw in the Autumn Internationals and got done several times, which is to be expected of such a young player promoted so quickly, but this shows he's learned and developed from the experience.
Puja
Yup, said so in the other thread about that pen. Atonio 100% at fault.
Thought our scrum went very well indeed against Fra, although I’m not sure Fra were trying to attack us there. By the end we had them on the ropes. Colombe seems a soft lump on that showing, good as Baxter was after that kick in the nuts of a pen. A man mountain does not necessarily a decent scrummager make (hello Frank Johnston).
Although I’m very meh on Genge by now, his role in that should be recognised as a good day at the office, certainly.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2025 8:46 pm
Lawrence is starting to look better but would moving to a conventional 12 slot with Beard, say, at 13 suit him now? I think changing the 12/13 needs to wait till 1. the 10/15 experiment settles and 2. the left wing is established (possibly Sleightholme, possibly not).
So... An OC who never really convinced when played out of position, and asked to play to his weaknesses, whilst if ignoring his strengths; moves to OC, and is allowed to play to his strengths.
So the solution is... to move him back to where he failed, and ask him to play to his weaknesses again?
Quite. That's why I said wait before even considering it.
If Furbank was available what would SB do? There would be a ruthless logic to giving him the 15 shirt and dropping Marcus to the bench. Furbank is a better FB. That seems unfair on Marcus who would not have been at 15 yesterday had Furbank been fit. Would he have been at 10 though? I tnink SB would have picked him there with Fin on the bench.
I think Marcus proved adequate at 15 and more useful than Steward. Playing there could cost him the 10 shirt though.
Deciding how and when to move on from both LCD and George could be on SB's to-do list, I'd guess.
Oakboy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2025 8:51 am
If Furbank was available what would SB do? There would be a ruthless logic to giving him the 15 shirt and dropping Marcus to the bench. Furbank is a better FB. That seems unfair on Marcus who would not have been at 15 yesterday had Furbank been fit. Would he have been at 10 though? I tnink SB would have picked him there with Fin on the bench.
I think Marcus proved adequate at 15 and more useful than Steward. Playing there could cost him the 10 shirt though.
Deciding how and when to move on from both LCD and George could be on SB's to-do list, I'd guess.
I don't think playing at 15 is what's going to cost Marcus the 10 shirt. He's had brilliant moments at 10 but those moments tend to be about him. Fin Smith showed hints in the Autumn that he could bring more of the backline into play from an attack that looked narrow and the back three largely not involved unless kicked to under Marcus.
Furbank was pretty average during the AIs, partly because the change in blockers rules doesn't help and partly because the fullbacks were never passed the ball (this also hampered Steward so not a unique Furbank problem). If Furbank were fit then there would be the chance to bring the Saints dual playmaker combination from club to international side and that would be worth a go.
I think Marcus is playing himself into the bench role. Be interesting to see what we go for Vs Scotland, whether we look to try and neutralise their kicking game and give Fin another direct running threat in Steward or try to keep the dual playmaker thing going. Marcus's unexpected yips off the tee probably don't help his argument for same again.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Feb 08, 2025 10:58 pm
Yeah it will be interesting to see back how many of those kicks away from Smith were really on. It did feel like quite a few, and obviously the charge down at the beginning looked pretty panicked.
He did look very composed in that closing period though.
Agree the call on Baxter’s first scrum seems odd. When they recognise he’s dominating it makes you question why the elbow on the floor is used to decide that call, but it’s far too late for me to really start understanding scrums.
Smith’s kick for the freeman try was a 50-50, it worked so fair play but I hate it when we kick away in their 22. Seems a hangover from Eddie/Faz. Lawrence particularly likes to drop it on the toe but isn’t very good at it, especially considering his carrying ability
It was probably 50:50 for a Freeman catch, but most of the other possible outcomes were still good - even a knock on would have France having a scrum in the corner 5m out.
Agreed on Lawrence - someone at some point has told him that he's capable of attacking kicks and that person needs shooting.
I'd also be interested in the m-b-m to see if my gut feel that we got caught a lot less in a defensive shape with Mitchell and M Smith as last gasp tacklers (ironic considering M Smith at FB) down the line as we have previously, that has cost us.
Also agree on Lawrence poor kicks and Curry's much better one.
Was it Genge that gave away both Offside pen's? We generally kept our discipline, particularly re offside and gave away less daft ones which was pleasing.
Charlatan wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2025 11:03 am
I'd also be interested in the m-b-m to see if my gut feel that we got caught a lot less in a defensive shape with Mitchell and M Smith as last gasp tacklers (ironic considering M Smith at FB) down the line as we have previously, that has cost us.
Also agree on Lawrence poor kicks and Curry's much better one.
Was it Genge that gave away both Offside pen's? We generally kept our discipline, particularly re offside and gave away less daft ones which was pleasing.
6 pens all game, must be a record low from the last 20 years
