RugbyRebels

Cole and youngs were suggesting putting lawrence back in at centre for dingwall to add a bit more physicality for fiji and putting smith in at fb as the extra playmaker. Not 'dropping' anyone, just matching players for the job. Pollock also coming on later vs tired defenders after curry and underhill do the arm wrestling early on.

Lawrence deserves a run. He did nothing wrong - just an injury- and he had the shirt before being hurt.
He's also a specialist at OC.

loudnconfident wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 9:25 pm Lawrence deserves a run. He did nothing wrong - just an injury- and he had the shirt before being hurt.
He's also a specialist at OC.

If nothing else, being in the 23 allows Freeman to provide a lot of positional cover. He did look like he’s finally found his groove for England just as he got injured.

I think we should be picking the team for Fiji based on who we want in the team for NZ. Ideally no changes between those two games to get our players properly gelling

twitchy wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 7:18 pm Cole and youngs were suggesting putting lawrence back in at centre for dingwall to add a bit more physicality for fiji and putting smith in at fb as the extra playmaker.

If I remember rightly Fiji tend to kick more for length as a general strategy so it's probably a game that will suit Marcus, as attacking from the backfield with time and space is one of his strengths. Adding some extra size to the midfield probably doesn't hurt against Fiji but I'm not sure who's then organising the defence because I doubt Lawrence does it and Freeman is unlikely to from an unfamiliar position.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 10:04 pm

loudnconfident wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 9:25 pm Lawrence deserves a run. He did nothing wrong - just an injury- and he had the shirt before being hurt.
He's also a specialist at OC.

If nothing else, being in the 23 allows Freeman to provide a lot of positional cover. He did look like he’s finally found his groove for England just as he got injured.

Was he? I really like Lawrence but his combo with Slade got absolutely panned in the autumn 2024 and then in the first 3 games of the 6N, he made 14 carries in total. He barely impacted the game bar a walk in against France.

I think I’ve only really been genuinely impressed with him at test level in the 2024 6N against France.

Charlie Morgan has said they like that Freeman’s fitness allows him to repeatedly sprint. I would guess that the 12 carries he made at the weekend is more than Lawrence has ever made in a test which is probably testament to his fitness over Lawrence’s.

Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 11:06 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 10:04 pm

loudnconfident wrote: ↑Mon Nov 03, 2025 9:25 pm Lawrence deserves a run. He did nothing wrong - just an injury- and he had the shirt before being hurt.
He's also a specialist at OC.

If nothing else, being in the 23 allows Freeman to provide a lot of positional cover. He did look like he’s finally found his groove for England just as he got injured.

Was he? I really like Lawrence but his combo with Slade got absolutely panned in the autumn 2024 and then in the first 3 games of the 6N, he made 14 carries in total. He barely impacted the game bar a walk in against France.

I think I’ve only really been genuinely impressed with him at test level in the 2024 6N against France.

Charlie Morgan has said they like that Freeman’s fitness allows him to repeatedly sprint. I would guess that the 12 carries he made at the weekend is more than Lawrence has ever made in a test which is probably testament to his fitness over Lawrence’s.

I meant in that specific game but my memory may well be failing me there. I agree he’s been a mixed bag in general, with the dreaded ball retention being a big one, but felt he was generally looking more at home when actually used to play to his strengths.

He’s no Conrad Smith (or Chris Harris…) in defence but I do think his physicality around the tackle area is a bit overlooked as well. I think he needs a smart all rounder alongside him at 12 though.

I’m a bit worried we’re gonna slightly stymie Freeman by moving him around so much. He’s been on fire for a while but he ran into a lot of organised brick walls on Sat, granted he still made ground. He’s a helluva player and it’s tempting you use his versatility. He’s a very bright player out wide and produces moments of magic. Not sure he’ll have the same ability closer in.

Don’t know what the answer is but I worry we’re gonna see his form drop through confusion. Lots of options, maybe too many.

I thought Freeman's positioning in defence was pretty good and because he's used to blitzing up in that Radford defence for Saints was able to link nicely with the wingers (who both blitz at club level as well).

He should link more with his outside men as he gets more comfortable working in the 13 channel and used to playing with those players outside of him. I'd certainly not move him back to the wing based on that showing. Especially because Roebuck is playing brilliantly on the right wing and IFW is xfactor on the left.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 10:26 am I thought Freeman's positioning in defence was pretty good and because he's used to blitzing up in that Radford defence for Saints was able to link nicely with the wingers (who both blitz at club level as well).

He should link more with his outside men as he gets more comfortable working in the 13 channel and used to playing with those players outside of him. I'd certainly not move him back to the wing based on that showing. Especially because Roebuck is playing brilliantly on the right wing and IFW is xfactor on the left.

Your last sentence is the crunch. All three players should be in the XV without any doubt. Freeman has had two games at 13 and has indicated a likelihood that he will develop the role - perhaps to a level beyond any other candidate. I'd rather we tried Slade or Arundell at FB (or called up de Glanville).

In addition to the above, the only real alternative to Freeman at 13 is Lawrence currently, particularly if we want someone to carry hard. Ojomoh is more of a 12, Northmore and Beard are probably not quite good enough and Joseph is only just starting to become a first choice at club level and is quite injury prone.

On the wing we have endless options. Roebuck and IFW both took to test rugby brilliantly, Muir and Murley were very good in Argentina, Arundell has started the season really well, Radwan and OHC are excellent every week and we have Caluori and Bracken too.

Freeman at 13 has always felt to me like the best use of our resources.

Steward missed training yesterday and possibly today as well. Late fitness test required after the hand injury he picked up at the weekend. If Borthwick is going to name his team early in the week again then he may well miss out, though I suspect Borthwick may have opted for a horses for courses selection at 15 anyway and gone with Marcus.

Freema makes sense if he plays consistently at club level at 13. There’s a lot to like about his game, but it feels like something he should hone at club level than international to me. Nonu ended up being a fantastic centre, but only after serious work on his game, especially his handling. I don’t want Freeman to be a Reiko Ioane in the centres! Great in theory, average in reality.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 2:32 pm Steward missed training yesterday and possibly today as well. Late fitness test required after the hand injury he picked up at the weekend. If Borthwick is going to name his team early in the week again then he may well miss out, though I suspect Borthwick may have opted for a horses for courses selection at 15 anyway and gone with Marcus.

I think you’re right that he’ll go horses for courses and would have anyway. Fiji are a different team that do kick longer as you said earlier in the thread.

Roebuck a doubt as he limped out of training today.

fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 6:48 pm Roebuck a doubt as he limped out of training today.

Telegraph saying it'll be Arundell, IFW, MSmith if Roebuck and Steward are both out (and also that Earl isn't starting at centre and was never goign to be). Will be a hell of an exciting back three if that's the case.

The question has to occur though of, if MSmith is playing 15 and we want to continue with the 6:2 bench, should FSmith be dropped? It feels incredibly harsh, cause there's a cigarette paper between him and Ford when it comes to starting at 10, but with only two back spots on the bench, it feels like a luxury to pick a specialist 10 when there's already one in case of injuries on the pitch.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 7:07 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 6:48 pm Roebuck a doubt as he limped out of training today.

Telegraph saying it'll be Arundell, IFW, MSmith if Roebuck and Steward are both out (and also that Earl isn't starting at centre and was never goign to be). Will be a hell of an exciting back three if that's the case.

The question has to occur though of, if MSmith is playing 15 and we want to continue with the 6:2 bench, should FSmith be dropped? It feels incredibly harsh, cause there's a cigarette paper between him and Ford when it comes to starting at 10, but with only two back spots on the bench, it feels like a luxury to pick a specialist 10 when there's already one in case of injuries on the pitch.

Puja

My thoughts, too. Would give space for an actual centre...

If Roebuck is out then I would be going for Freeman back on the wing with Lawrence at 13 and Arundell in the 23 shirt. If he sticks with Freeman at 13 and that back three you can tell he is serious about making Freeman a centre.

SixAndAHalf wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 9:17 pm If Roebuck is out then I would be going for Freeman back on the wing with Lawrence at 13 and Arundell in the 23 shirt. If he sticks with Freeman at 13 and that back three you can tell he is serious about making Freeman a centre.

My view is that, if we're going to play Freeman as a 13, he has to be given the whole AIs. Swapping him in and out achieves nothing and, when we've got a queue of wingers as long as we do, it's hardly like we need to abandon the experiment partway through. Would require another three injuries before I'd consider moving him out personally, and even then, I'd probably still say Hassell-Collins could do the job fine.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 9:47 pm

SixAndAHalf wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 9:17 pm If Roebuck is out then I would be going for Freeman back on the wing with Lawrence at 13 and Arundell in the 23 shirt. If he sticks with Freeman at 13 and that back three you can tell he is serious about making Freeman a centre.

My view is that, if we're going to play Freeman as a 13, he has to be given the whole AIs. Swapping him in and out achieves nothing and, when we've got a queue of wingers as long as we do, it's hardly like we need to abandon the experiment partway through. Would require another three injuries before I'd consider moving him out personally, and even then, I'd probably still say Hassell-Collins could do the job fine.

Puja

Yep. There's so little value in a game at centre here or there. Give him a run.

Interesting to see Arundell is so high up on many peoples lists at wing, but I've not really seen any club rugby so far this season. Has he rounded out his game or is he really looking that lethal?

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 9:47 pm

SixAndAHalf wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 9:17 pm If Roebuck is out then I would be going for Freeman back on the wing with Lawrence at 13 and Arundell in the 23 shirt. If he sticks with Freeman at 13 and that back three you can tell he is serious about making Freeman a centre.

My view is that, if we're going to play Freeman as a 13, he has to be given the whole AIs. Swapping him in and out achieves nothing and, when we've got a queue of wingers as long as we do, it's hardly like we need to abandon the experiment partway through. Would require another three injuries before I'd consider moving him out personally, and even then, I'd probably still say Hassell-Collins could do the job fine.

Puja

Perhaps Freeman should play at 13 for Saints, as well? It seems mad that England are using international fixtures to train an OC.

loudnconfident wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 7:57 am

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 9:47 pm

SixAndAHalf wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 9:17 pm If Roebuck is out then I would be going for Freeman back on the wing with Lawrence at 13 and Arundell in the 23 shirt. If he sticks with Freeman at 13 and that back three you can tell he is serious about making Freeman a centre.

My view is that, if we're going to play Freeman as a 13, he has to be given the whole AIs. Swapping him in and out achieves nothing and, when we've got a queue of wingers as long as we do, it's hardly like we need to abandon the experiment partway through. Would require another three injuries before I'd consider moving him out personally, and even then, I'd probably still say Hassell-Collins could do the job fine.

Puja

Perhaps Freeman should play at 13 for Saints, as well? It seems mad that England are using international fixtures to train an OC.

Freeman looks comfortable for England in defence so what's the issue? He does not stay rooted to his wing for Saints so the attacking requirements of the OC role occur for his club whatever number is on his shirt. If SB has the sense to leave him at 13 for all four AIs I'd expect him to start there in the 6N. He will improve game by game.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 10:38 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 9:47 pm

SixAndAHalf wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 9:17 pm If Roebuck is out then I would be going for Freeman back on the wing with Lawrence at 13 and Arundell in the 23 shirt. If he sticks with Freeman at 13 and that back three you can tell he is serious about making Freeman a centre.

My view is that, if we're going to play Freeman as a 13, he has to be given the whole AIs. Swapping him in and out achieves nothing and, when we've got a queue of wingers as long as we do, it's hardly like we need to abandon the experiment partway through. Would require another three injuries before I'd consider moving him out personally, and even then, I'd probably still say Hassell-Collins could do the job fine.

Puja

Yep. There's so little value in a game at centre here or there. Give him a run.

Interesting to see Arundell is so high up on many peoples lists at wing, but I've not really seen any club rugby so far this season. Has he rounded out his game or is he really looking that lethal?

He is definitely looking lethal. His game is becoming more rounded, I suppose. I think I just watch his explosive pace off the mark and think wow! Not very scientific.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 10:38 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 9:47 pm

SixAndAHalf wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 9:17 pm If Roebuck is out then I would be going for Freeman back on the wing with Lawrence at 13 and Arundell in the 23 shirt. If he sticks with Freeman at 13 and that back three you can tell he is serious about making Freeman a centre.

My view is that, if we're going to play Freeman as a 13, he has to be given the whole AIs. Swapping him in and out achieves nothing and, when we've got a queue of wingers as long as we do, it's hardly like we need to abandon the experiment partway through. Would require another three injuries before I'd consider moving him out personally, and even then, I'd probably still say Hassell-Collins could do the job fine.

Puja

Yep. There's so little value in a game at centre here or there. Give him a run.

Interesting to see Arundell is so high up on many peoples lists at wing, but I've not really seen any club rugby so far this season. Has he rounded out his game or is he really looking that lethal?

Pretty much what Oakboy said. He has gone back to looking like a generational talent when I've watched him for Bath this season. Ridiculous acceleration, combined with with an inhuman ability to change speed and direction like momentum doesn't apply to him, combined with leg strength that allows him to bump forwards in the tackle. He's not completely finished in every aspect, but he's not got any glaring holes in his game that I can see, and his running ability almost makes him worth it even if there was a glaring hole.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Nov 05, 2025 9:09 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 10:38 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Nov 04, 2025 9:47 pm

My view is that, if we're going to play Freeman as a 13, he has to be given the whole AIs. Swapping him in and out achieves nothing and, when we've got a queue of wingers as long as we do, it's hardly like we need to abandon the experiment partway through. Would require another three injuries before I'd consider moving him out personally, and even then, I'd probably still say Hassell-Collins could do the job fine.

Puja

Yep. There's so little value in a game at centre here or there. Give him a run.

Interesting to see Arundell is so high up on many peoples lists at wing, but I've not really seen any club rugby so far this season. Has he rounded out his game or is he really looking that lethal?

Pretty much what Oakboy said. He has gone back to looking like a generational talent when I've watched him for Bath this season. Ridiculous acceleration, combined with with an inhuman ability to change speed and direction like momentum doesn't apply to him, combined with leg strength that allows him to bump forwards in the tackle. He's not completely finished in every aspect, but he's not got any glaring holes in his game that I can see, and his running ability almost makes him worth it even if there was a glaring hole.

Puja

It won't at international level, particularly whilst England have such good options on the wing. Previously Arundell was too lazy to chase kicks, not strong in the air and had a thoroughly meh kicking game. I'm sure it'll be claimed those are boring and shouldn't matter but at international the first two are non-negotiable and the third is nice to have particularly if he wants to be a fullback option (where most countries are using a flyhalf or someone with almost flyhalf levels of kicking ability from hand).

The older more travelled Arundell has looked very good for Bath, be interesting to see if he can translate that into the all court international game. With Freeman, Roebuck and IFW offering good aerial skills and brilliant work rate on top of great finishing ability we are in a good place in terms of back three options and Arundell will need a good game to keep his name in the reckoning, he can ask Murley how quickly you can fall from grace if you fall apart at the back.