RugbyRebels

fivepointer wrote:Why does it always have to come back to the USA?

Can't we judge Cuba and Castro on its own terms. If the Govt have behaved badly - which they have over decades - then why is it so hard to recognise that and call it out for what it is?

Cuba have made progress in some areas, but this is not a free democratic country. It's human right abuses are many.

Why shouldn't we compare it to the country which regards itself the champion of democracy and leader of the free world? How else are you going to get a balanced perspective? You could talk about the faults of any country on the planet, if you wanted. I mean, how does Cuba stack up against some of America's closest allies in terms of human rights - Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, Turkey and Qatar, for example? & in making that comparison you are still only able to base it upon the Western perception of Cuba. What we do know is that Cuba's defiance and revolutionary spirit has inspired others elsewhere, such as the anti-Apartheid movements in South Africa and Palestine.

rowan wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Why does it always have to come back to the USA?

Can't we judge Cuba and Castro on its own terms. If the Govt have behaved badly - which they have over decades - then why is it so hard to recognise that and call it out for what it is?

Cuba have made progress in some areas, but this is not a free democratic country. It's human right abuses are many.

Why shouldn't we compare it to the country which regards itself the champion of democracy and leader of the free world? How else are you going to get a balanced perspective? You could talk about the faults of any country on the planet, if you wanted. I mean, how does Cuba stack up against some of America's closest allies in terms of human rights - Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, Turkey and Qatar, for example? & in making that comparison you are still only able to base it upon the Western perception of Cuba. What we do know is that Cuba's defiance and revolutionary spirit has inspired others elsewhere, such as the anti-Apartheid movements in South Africa and Palestine.

If any country has a poor human rights record, why cant we condemn them all with equal force?

The countries you've mentioned are ones that I would be critical of. But i would also include Cuba, N Korea, Russia, China and Venezuela.

If our criticism means anything, then it has to be consistent. Does it not?

The main criticism would be the lack of a democratic process. My view of that is they are far from alone, and there is far greater evil being perpetrated in this world by nations which tout themselves as champions of freedom and democracy. Meanwhile, as mentioned, Cuba has inspired many with its rejection of capitalist values and defiance of the world's major super power. So I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

@Rowan

The evil apartheid regime was defeated. But not by Cuban forces.

The border wars went on for about 25 years, so there's no room in here to get into details, but there were no decisive defeats of the Saffer army by Cuban/SWAPO forces. Moreover those conflicts were cold war proxy conflicts; they had nothing to do with apartheid. Had the Communists struck a deal with the Saffers for mining rights in SA, they would have been happy enough to allow apartheid to continue.

The threat of communism - real or imagined - played a huge part in moulding the schism which cut right across the globe after WW2. As usual, Africa was fought over, for access to it's rich natural resources and endless supply of cheap labour.

The Saffers even developed (in conjunction with Israel) nuclear weapons:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Afr ... ith_Israel

After the apartheid regime was dismantled, Mandela's SA signed the NPT, and the path to a brighter, bettered future for black South Africans began....

Assuming what you say is true, VG, and much of it may well be, I'm curious to know whence you gained this insight. Are you from that part of the world, by any chance? The Cuban army may not have defeated the Saffas outright, but I understand they certainly thwarted them sufficiently to destroy the confidence and morale of a regime which hitherto had taken its supremacy as a given.

It'd seem quite possible to take a balanced view on a country without comparing them to the USA. Just as it's possible for some to take a constant view on the USA and have no balance whatsoever around their inference.

Digby wrote:It'd seem quite possible to take a balanced view on a country without comparing them to the USA. Just as it's possible for some to take a constant view on the USA and have no balance whatsoever around their inference.

Digby trying to lecture us on the definition of a 'balanced view' would be a little like Trump trying to lecture us on political correctness, or Clinton trying to lecture us about world peace

Justin Trudeau's glowing tribute to the great man:

While the majority of world leaders dished out lukewarm tributes to Fidel Castro or skirted around the subject of his legacy, Justin Trudeau’s reaction to the death of the former Cuban leader was pointedly warm.

In turn, the Canadian Prime Minister has drawn criticism for praising the former Cuban leader and revolutionary who died at the age of 90 on Friday.

Known as Fidel to both friends and foes, Castro split public opinion in life and death and leaves behind a massively divided legacy. While the firebrand leader gained support for bringing universal free education and healthcare to Cuba, his opponents criticise his human rights record and say he suppressed dissent.

Mr Trudeau hailed Castro as a "remarkable leader" and a “legendary revolutionary and orator” in a statement and warmly recalled his late father’s friendship with Castro.

“While a controversial figure, both Mr Castro’s supporters and detractors recognised his tremendous dedication and love for the Cuban people who had a deep and lasting affection for “el Comandante,” he said.

“I know my father was very proud to call him a friend and I had the opportunity to meet Fidel when my father passed away. It was also a real honour to meet his three sons and his brother President Raúl Castro during my recent visit to Cuba.”

Continues here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 41901.html

Fair and balanced appraisal here http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot. ... fidel.html

" He was a revolutionary hero who inspired millions. Cuba threw off American domination and forged its own path, creating health care and education systems among the best in the world. Castro was also a ruthless autocrat whose achievements cannot be separated from the violence and brutality that underpinned his rule"

fivepointer wrote:Fair and balanced appraisal here http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot. ... fidel.html

" He was a revolutionary hero who inspired millions. Cuba threw off American domination and forged its own path, creating health care and education systems among the best in the world. Castro was also a ruthless autocrat whose achievements cannot be separated from the violence and brutality that underpinned his rule"

The worst prison on the island is the Guantanamo concentration camp.

EDIT: Had to fix the link to embed it

Interesting interview

rowan wrote:

Digby wrote:It'd seem quite possible to take a balanced view on a country without comparing them to the USA. Just as it's possible for some to take a constant view on the USA and have no balance whatsoever around their inference.

Digby trying to lecture us on the definition of a 'balanced view' would be a little like Trump trying to lecture us on political correctness, or Clinton trying to lecture us about world peace

Or Rowan on idioms...

Or Canta-brian on razor sharp wit...

Agree or disagree, this makes some valid points:

+ Cuba is today the only country in the Americas where child malnourishment does not exit (UNICEF).

+ Cuba has the lowest child mortality rate in the Americas (UNICEF).

+ 130,000 students have graduated from medical school in Cuba since 1961.

+ Cuba has eliminated homelessness (Knoema).

+ 54% of Cuba’s national budget is used for social services.

+ Cuba has the best education system in Latin America.

+ Cuba has sent hundreds of doctors and nurses on medical missions across the Third World.

+ Cuba was the first country to eliminate mother-to-child transmission of HIV (World Health Organization).

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/12/01/ ... os-legacy/

While on the other hand some equally valid points.....

"The Cuban government continues to repress dissent and discourage public criticism. It now relies less on long-term prison sentences to punish its critics, but short-term arbitrary arrests of human rights defenders, independent journalists, and others have increased dramatically in recent years. Other repressive tactics employed by the government include beatings, public acts of shaming, and the termination of employment".


https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2016/c ... pters/cuba

I see:

& the worst human rights violations in Cuba are committed at its only concentration camp and torture center:

Food for thought:

USA does bad things - lets condemn unreservedly
Cuba does bad things - lets turn a blind eye and in any event its not as bad as the USA

I'll leave one final link.

Here's what that well known bastion of right wing imperialism Workers liberty think about Castro http://www.workersliberty.org/node/27338

fivepointer wrote:USA does bad things - lets condemn unreservedly
Cuba does bad things - lets turn a blind eye and in any event its not as bad as the USA

I'll leave one final link.

Here's what that well known bastion of right wing imperialism Workers liberty think about Castro http://www.workersliberty.org/node/27338

Yes, but you don't read news in Turkish, nor write for some form of Turkish media when you can scrounge a bit of work, so you will not know the details of this.

Hate to break this to you, Einstein, but they don't actually speak Turkish in Cuba. They speak Spanish, and it would certainly give you a bit more insight on Cuba if you were able to speak that language and read the local press. Even better if you could go and live there among the people. Only then would you really be able to claim any kind of expertise. But, no, you'll just continue spouting the nonsense you read in your favorite propaganda sheets and telling those who do actually have first-hand experience that they don't know what they're talking about.

As for Fivepointer's silly perspective, come back and tell us about it when Cuba has slaughtered 10 or 12 million Muslims for oil. Or when America has actually stood up for the freedom of African nations being exploited for their resources. This pointing the finger at the others approach isn't working. All it amounts to is apologism for the world's biggest and most destructive war machine.

Are you serious. Are you really saying that no one else can be criticised or held to account because of the actions of the USA?

Really, is that position?

Not at all. My perspective is that things need to be kept in perspective. Overall Castro must be regarded as one of the great men of the 20th century. We could sit here and pick apart Mandela, Ghandi, MLK Junior, Che and all the others as well, if we so wished, but what needs to be looked at is their overall contribution to modern history.

What could have castro and cuba have achieved without the blockade? Why is the embargo acceptable to people? It was in place long before any human rights abuses. The ignore Americas role in Cuban history of the last 50 years is ridiculous its the elephant in the room.

Very true, and Cuba prospered in many ways in spite of this. Life expectancy almost doubled during the Castro era, and along with infant mortality levels as well as education standards far exceeded anything else throughout Latin America. Cuba was also ahead of the game on women's rights and gay rights, and it's really ironic to hear Castro's critics drawing reference to the 60s & 70s because women and gays had it even tougher in Europe and North America back then, while you'd have been far better off as an Afro-Cuban that you would've been as an African-American; that's for sure. What they might have achieved without the embargoes we can only leave to speculation, but it's a great pity they were deprived of the chance by a nation which champions itself as the defender of freedom. Prior to the revolution Cuba was a playground for rich Americans and mafia alike. Even Washington had wearied of Havana politics by the time the revolution took place, which is perhaps the main reason it was able to succeed. Batista's pleas for help apparently fell on deaf ears, sending him fleeing into exile...