Standing for the Anthem

[morepork]

....and making meth.

[Mellsblue]

Good Lad. Proper, big bollies.

Someone think they know someone with bigger bollies....?.......living..?.

The thousands of people who do similar and more in countries where they may get killed for such actions.

[kk67]

The thousands of people who do similar and more in countries where they may get killed for such actions.

Good point.

[SerjeantWildgoose]

Ah, yes, the James McLean saga. Brave man and full credit to him!

I respect McLean's decision and stance. The moral coercion that people face today in the wearing of the poppy completely detracts from its purpose, which is one of personal remembrance. It has, like many symbols, been hijacked by those who use it for nefarious nationalist purposes.

But I wouldn't go so far as to call the bloke 'brave.' What risk is there in refusing to wear a poppy when the vast majority of people who have an inkling who he is think he's a cunt anyway?

[rowan]

I have to confess I know nothing else about the man. But I remember reading about his poppy stance. Seemed a brave stance to me, but I really don't know anything more about the context of the action.

[Digby]

I've no issue with anyone not wanting to wear a poppy, indeed it seems quite worrying the number of people who'd not dream to appear in public without a poppy, its cult like. Now possibly everyone who wears a poppy is actually a big fan of the Legion, but it seems unlikely. I don't even mind McLean giving his reasons for not wanting to wear a poppy, to not respect the British or English flag, to not respect the anthem, but it does seem a bit odd if we're that bad he can't observe a few niceties that he'd choose to live here for so long, and take the money off a group of people who overwhelmingly will support those things. I wouldn't agree with him on his observations, but it would be possible to respect him for them had he turned the chance to live here and the money down, but to take the money and still whine seems to me more than a little pathetic.

[WaspInWales]

Trump's response was the typically bullish American stance that many would expect. "If you don't love the US, then get out!". The kind of thing you would see in an episode of South Park.

However, what an unbelievable response from the Santa Clara police:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37265886

Instead of seeing it as an opportunity to open up a debate with Kaepernick, they're threatening to boycott policing matches for the 49ers.

Will be interesting to see if any other players start to follow Kaepernick's lead on this.

[BBD]

The trouble is that his "demands" are a bit vague. What exactly does he want to see/hear? What specifically needs to be different for him to withdraw his protest?

[rowan]

I thought that was pretty clear. He wants the cops to stop killing black people and throwing them in prison, and he thinks it's a sham that the election has come down to a choice of a pathologically lying war criminal and a buffoon in a wig, for example...

[Digby]

Kaepernick does have an issue in addressing his concerns against 'cops' and not some cops, not all cops are racist, not all racist cops behave badly on the job, and if as I assume he'd like a world where all black people aren't lumped together as a homogenous group it'd serve him better not to do similar with 'cops'

There are still plenty of problems for him to go after within the various US enforcement agencies, and if he left some room for there being plenty of dedicated officers who do a fine job, far too many of whom have also died, I suspect he'd have an easier time getting his message across.

[BBD]

I thought that was pretty clear. He wants the cops to stop killing black people and throwing them in prison, and he thinks it's a sham that the election has come down to a choice of a pathologically lying war criminal and a buffoon in a wig, for example...

Which is vague and your own spin on things

[kk67]

The trouble is that his "demands" are a bit vague. What exactly does he want to see/hear? What specifically needs to be different for him to withdraw his protest?

I'm not sure that 'demands' are the emotion/motivation that is making him protest. Institutionalized racism isn't exactly something you can quantify at the best of times. I get the feeling he's just super-hacked off and ain't doing the patriotism sh*t anymore.
I think his refusal stands on it's own merits. He's just a sportsman.....you think he should have spent more time working on his ideology..?.

[BBD]

I know, hence the quotation marks around the word

[BBD]

I think if you are going to do something that provocative, even with the best of intentions and a solid basis for doing so, it's unwise to be so vague about what you want to happen and how you expect your requirements (better word?) to be met

[kk67]

I think if you are going to do something that provocative, even with the best of intentions and a solid basis for doing so, it's unwise to be so vague about what you want to happen and how you expect your requirements (better word?) to be met

I agree that he should be able to justify his stance,......but he's just a sportsman protesting against blind patriotism. Surely that's enough.

[BBD]

he IS a sportsman
He's a sportsman choosing to use his profile within that sport to make a political point, he has the right to do so, no question.
My point is that the vagueness of his "demands" will make a resolution difficult. What can the NFL do? They are facing a situation where they can't guarantee the safety of spectators, so games and the vast amounts of money are at risk or further costs incurred. They have no influence over policing, societal racism or government policy. I can't see them joining his crusade re the anthem even if they wanted to

He is perfectly entitled to his view, and to protest, but as this plays out his lack of clarity means that it can only escalate if he chooses to retain his stance

[rowan]

I thought that was pretty clear. He wants the cops to stop killing black people and throwing them in prison, and he thinks it's a sham that the election has come down to a choice of a pathologically lying war criminal and a buffoon in a wig, for example...

Which is vague and your own spin on things

Not verbatim, sure, but pretty much what the guy said. While I happen to agree, I certainly haven't put words in the horse's mouth, so to speak. Heres some direct quotes from earlier on this thread:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

"You have Hillary who has called black teens or black kids super predators, you have Donald Trump who’s openly racist," Kaepernick said. "We have a presidential candidate who has deleted emails and done things illegally and is a presidential candidate. That doesn’t make sense to me because if that was any other person you’d be in prison. So, what is this country really standing for?"

[BBD]

I thought that was pretty clear. He wants the cops to stop killing black people and throwing them in prison, and he thinks it's a sham that the election has come down to a choice of a pathologically lying war criminal and a buffoon in a wig, for example...

Which is vague and your own spin on things

Not verbatim, sure, but pretty much what the guy said. While I happen to agree, I certainly haven't put words in the horse's mouth, so to speak. Heres some direct quotes from earlier on this thread:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

"You have Hillary who has called black teens or black kids super predators, you have Donald Trump who’s openly racist," Kaepernick said. "We have a presidential candidate who has deleted emails and done things illegally and is a presidential candidate. That doesn’t make sense to me because if that was any other person you’d be in prison. So, what is this country really standing for?"

Fair enough, I hadn't read anything about the material that you cover in paragraph 2, I mistakenly assumed you had expressed your own view there, I apologise for that assumption.

It's still vague though, in terms of what would constitute an acceptable way out

[Eugene Wrayburn]

It being america, he should sue the police for infirnging his 1st amendment rights. They can't simply refuse to do their job because someone asserts their constitutional right. Cunts.

[rowan]

It being america, he should sue the police for infirnging his 1st amendment rights. They can't simply refuse to do their job because someone asserts their constitutional right. Cunts.

For once we can agree

[morepork]

Unbelievably petty and unprofessional by the Popo. Sums up their attitude right there. They just don't get it.

[Digby]

As an update to the situation (and the socks) I note he's actually said

"I wore these socks, in the past, because the rogue cops that are allowed to hold positions in police departments, not only put the community in danger, but also put the cops that have the right intentions in danger by creating an environment of mistrust."
"I have two uncles and friends who are police officers and work to protect and serve ALL people. So before these socks, which were worn before I took my public stance, are used to distract from the real issues, I wanted to address this immediately."

That really should be good enough for the police. I can understand the police at a time they're being shot at not being happy to work events where they perceive someone to be escalating tensions, but providing the distinction is clear that he's not referring to all cops, and indeed he's fairly noting the rogue cops are raising the risk for the good cops, then there shouldn't be any threat of withdrawing services.

[Digby]

It being america, he should sue the police for infirnging his 1st amendment rights. They can't simply refuse to do their job because someone asserts their constitutional right. Cunts.

Typically the view would be these big public are events are covered by officers working overtime, also typically that overtime tends to be popular, so much so I wonder how realistic the idea is that they might withdraw. However I think there might be a political fight if no matter the legalities you went to any group of workers and insisted their overtime that they volunteer for is now enforced, especially a group that can be as organised and militant as the police, hopefully nobody actual wants to even have that scrap in the first place.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

It being america, he should sue the police for infirnging his 1st amendment rights. They can't simply refuse to do their job because someone asserts their constitutional right. Cunts.

Typically the view would be these big public are events are covered by officers working overtime, also typically that overtime tends to be popular, so much so I wonder how realistic the idea is that they might withdraw. However I think there might be a political fight if no matter the legalities you went to any group of workers and insisted their overtime that they volunteer for is now enforced, especially a group that can be as organised and militant as the police, hopefully nobody actual wants to even have that scrap in the first place.

The police either have an obligation to police this or they don't. If they do then it's up to the commander to get it done. It isn't a volunteer service.

[Digby]

It being america, he should sue the police for infirnging his 1st amendment rights. They can't simply refuse to do their job because someone asserts their constitutional right. Cunts.

Typically the view would be these big public are events are covered by officers working overtime, also typically that overtime tends to be popular, so much so I wonder how realistic the idea is that they might withdraw. However I think there might be a political fight if no matter the legalities you went to any group of workers and insisted their overtime that they volunteer for is now enforced, especially a group that can be as organised and militant as the police, hopefully nobody actual wants to even have that scrap in the first place.

The police either have an obligation to police this or they don't. If they do then it's up to the commander to get it done. It isn't a volunteer service.

I'm not of a hugely different view, but if you've created a situation in which people do feel like they're volunteering for the additional work and you decide to trample on that then you're going to take some grief.