RugbyRebels

Russell due to play this weekend I believe. Horne Jnr did play.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/scotland ... us-france/

This seem about right? What surprised me was Kinghorn's rating. I thought his kicking and his linebreaking at least kept us in the right areas of the pitch. I really thought if he'd had a bit more support we could have been making something of it. I know he makes mistakes but I thought he was one of our only useful players.

I was watching the game on delay and annoyingly I already knew we lost, so might not have had the same perspective I normally would.

At least the thing with Russell at the bottom of the page is very moderately entertaining. Interesting he seems to really not care whether he kicks the goals for Scotland or not, but I'm not sure what other answer he could really give to that one. I'd still like to see him do it long-term.

Mikey Brown wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/scotland ... us-france/

This seem about right? What surprised me was Kinghorn's rating. I thought his kicking and his linebreaking at least kept us in the right areas of the pitch. I really thought if he'd had a bit more support we could have been making something of it. I know he makes mistakes but I thought he was one of our only useful players.

I was watching the game on delay and annoyingly I already knew we lost, so might not have had the same perspective I normally would.

At least the thing with Russell at the bottom of the page is very moderately entertaining. Interesting he seems to really not care whether he kicks the goals for Scotland or not, but I'm not sure what other answer he could really give to that one. I'd still like to see him do it long-term.

He was certainly better than Grigg. Who got treated like a child when stripped of the ball twice. Would maybe have given BK a 5 or 6.

Adder wrote:Did George Horne not play this weekend?

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He did. And scored after 45 seconds

whatisthejava wrote:Typically Scotland turn to shit and I get offered 2 tickets to the wales game.

Anyway difficult to know who to pick who isn’t tarnished with that shit fest

Dell - worked hard
Brown - time to show a mean streak toonie
Fagerson
BBT
Gg
Graham - I didn’t notice Bradbury until 35 mins
Richie
Straus toss up between him and Bradbury both were shit
Price - zero point playing slow ball against wales.
Russell
Graham
Johnson
Johnson
Maitland - looked slow
Kinghorn - developing a habit of making a break and not passing. It’s happenong to much now

I am not dropping Rambo after a couple of games with dodgy line outs as he was still one of the more effective (relative term) about the park. IIRC Brown has lost one or two over the last two games too. Didn't think our tight 5 players were that great when they came on. Our scrum got hosed and Fagerson continues to the annoying type of niggly rather than effective.

Bradbury looked exactly what he is. A player who will work hard but woefully short of game time. Made plenty tackles but very few dominant ones. That would also be a fear with throwing a lot of guys in who haven't played much, they will not start and hit the ground running.

What is very noticeable and not sure if it is Danny Wilson to blame or the whole unit, there is a few times over the last two games where there have been opposition getting up right in front of the jumpers. That makes an incredibly small window for the hooker to throw into.

That being said about game time, I am awfully tempted to get Richie Gray back in.

Skinner will hopefully come into consideration too.

GT has a bit of a dilemma this week. Edinburghs season is on the line next week. Who does he release to play?

Bhatti
McInally
Nel
R Gray
Gilchrist
Skinner
Ritchie
Ashe

G Horne
Russell
Kinghorn
Johnson
Dunbar
Seymour
Graham

Brown
Dell
Fagerson
J Gray
Graham
Price
P Horne
McGuigan

It's very, very hard to select anyone who played in that game. A message needs to be sent to the players IMO. Redeeming yourself every third game for the previous couple of abysmal performances isn't acceptable.

Toony sounded and looked as dismayed, upset and angry as I've ever seen him in that post match interview. I wouldn't be surprised if there were wholesale changes.

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:
Toony sounded and looked as dismayed, upset and angry as I've ever seen him in that post match interview. I wouldn't be surprised if there were wholesale changes.

There wont be.

Someone posted on another forum and I tend to agree. There is not anyone on our coaching staff who can be a big of a bastard. They are all nice guys.

Maybe they need a little pressure applied to their own places.

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:Bhatti
McInally
Nel
R Gray
Gilchrist
Skinner
Ritchie
Ashe

G Horne
Russell
Kinghorn
Johnson
Dunbar
Seymour
Graham

Brown
Dell
Fagerson
J Gray
Graham
Price
P Horne
McGuigan

It's very, very hard to select anyone who played in that game. A message needs to be sent to the players IMO. Redeeming yourself every third game for the previous couple of abysmal performances isn't acceptable.

Toony sounded and looked as dismayed, upset and angry as I've ever seen him in that post match interview. I wouldn't be surprised if there were wholesale changes.

Kinghorn/Graham a typo?

I'd have JJ over Dunbar and Laidlaw on bench in case somebody wants to come up with a plan B at some point. Hastings for McGuigan

I'd be releasg a lot of players to their clubs this weekend on the basis that they have something to prove. The exceptions (because of their position and game time) would be McInally, Gilchrist, Ritchie, Russell (pretending he is still not right) and maybe Sam Johnson.

None of the others should be too burst as they just had a rest week and some seem to need the sharpness more than the rest.

The team for the following week would then depend on performances there with people like Horne and maybe even M Fagerson in with a shout.

Also one comment on Bradbury. Thought he was anonymous but would be inclined to give him another game. We wont learn much from giving him one game at a time and he has just come back.

Dont think they have an option over Russell, if they did he'd not be injured. Bradbury needs to play Treviso this weekend definitely. He was great against dragons but as you say needs fame time

Id go with the strategy of releasing almost everyone back to their clubs and tell them that if they want another crack at Wales to actually give a shit

Difficult to remember who is and isnt injured but id pick the best 23 in form and if that means dropping a few well known names good.

We cant go into the next two games with a team thinking they can whistle their way through it expecting to go to the WC

Interesting stats for you (which I think are right but don't give me too much sht if not)

We havent won a game in the 6N when Hogg wasn't on the park since....2011.

From 2012 to 2018 we won 11 games in the 6N. In those games, we have scored 30 tries. Hogg either scored or directly assisted 14 of those tries - so basically 50% of all tries. If you exclude 2018 when we scored 9 tries and Hogg had a comparatively quiet championship with only 1 try or assist then in the previous 6 years he directly assisted or scored just under 2/3 of all tries. Of course, in 2018 we had the rise of Jones (3 tries), Maitland on form (3 tries) and some Russell inspiration.

So in many ways its hardly surprising we struggled without Russell, Jones and in particular Hogg at the weekend. The reality is we have a substandard pack of honest triers (who were better under Dan Macfarland) and a few world class players in the backs. Without the real Test quality players and their star dust we are always going to be military medium.

It was apparent when you looked at the backline on Saturday that there werent the real threats of previous games. I like Grigg for Glasgow but I liked De Luca for Edinburgh. Without our three gane breakers in the backs we just arent as dangerous. Seymour and Maitland are better than the wings of that era but even they arent "create something out of nothing" type players

I'm really struggling not to carry on saying we ditched Cotter too soon. I've said it a million times and it's not remotely helpful. There.

Those stats are horrible and not remotely surprising. I do think that basically any team would struggle when they lose their 3 best backs (look at the steaming pile of shit NZ became when Carter/Nonu/Smith retired) but our depth in some positions is horrendous, and without their magic it just shows up how fragile our forwards are.

I agree we really need to shake things up. I'd love for Fagerson/TTRI/Bradborg to get some real game time under their belts but it's probably asking a lot for them to be at 100% in a couple of weeks.

Anyone tempted enough by McGuigan/Jones/other to drop both Maitland and Seymour?

I'm really torn how much experience we can afford to sacrifice against an incredibly experienced and resilient Welsh side.

OptimisticJock wrote:

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:Bhatti
McInally
Nel
R Gray
Gilchrist
Skinner
Ritchie
Ashe

G Horne
Russell
Kinghorn
Johnson
Dunbar
Seymour
Graham

Brown
Dell
Fagerson
J Gray
Graham
Price
P Horne
McGuigan

It's very, very hard to select anyone who played in that game. A message needs to be sent to the players IMO. Redeeming yourself every third game for the previous couple of abysmal performances isn't acceptable.

Toony sounded and looked as dismayed, upset and angry as I've ever seen him in that post match interview. I wouldn't be surprised if there were wholesale changes.

Kinghorn/Graham a typo?

I'd have JJ over Dunbar and Laidlaw on bench in case somebody wants to come up with a plan B at some point. Hastings for McGuigan

Nope. Kinghorn offers little line breaking ability from 15 on the counter at test level. Needs a lot of work.

Mikey Brown wrote:I'm really struggling not to carry on saying we ditched Cotter too soon. I've said it a million times and it's not remotely helpful. There.

Those stats are horrible and not remotely surprising. I do think that basically any team would struggle when they lose their 3 best backs (look at the steaming pile of shit NZ became when Carter/Nonu/Smith retired) but our depth in some positions is horrendous, and without their magic it just shows up how fragile our forwards are.

I agree we really need to shake things up. I'd love for Fagerson/TTRI/Bradborg to get some real game time under their belts but it's probably asking a lot for them to be at 100% in a couple of weeks.

Anyone tempted enough by McGuigan/Jones/other to drop both Maitland and Seymour?

I'm really torn how much experience we can afford to sacrifice against an incredibly experienced and resilient Welsh side.

q

Nope. As above Cotter was a decent coach but he was helped by Hogg having two annus miraculous on the trot and deservedly winning two 6N player of the tourney titles. Remember Cotter got whitewashed in 2015. Toony is not untouchable and needs to face criticism but Cotters teams had many of the flaws we face now.

ARM wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:I'm really struggling not to carry on saying we ditched Cotter too soon. I've said it a million times and it's not remotely helpful. There.

Those stats are horrible and not remotely surprising. I do think that basically any team would struggle when they lose their 3 best backs (look at the steaming pile of shit NZ became when Carter/Nonu/Smith retired) but our depth in some positions is horrendous, and without their magic it just shows up how fragile our forwards are.

I agree we really need to shake things up. I'd love for Fagerson/TTRI/Bradborg to get some real game time under their belts but it's probably asking a lot for them to be at 100% in a couple of weeks.

Anyone tempted enough by McGuigan/Jones/other to drop both Maitland and Seymour?

I'm really torn how much experience we can afford to sacrifice against an incredibly experienced and resilient Welsh side.

q

Nope. As above Cotter was a decent coach but he was helped by Hogg having two annus miraculous on the trot and deservedly winning two 6N player of the tourney titles. Remember Cotter got whitewashed in 2015. Toony is not untouchable and needs to face criticism but Cotters teams had many of the flaws we face now.

Relevant but under VC I felt that there were obvious improvements year on year, he was building towards something and I at least understood what he was trying to do. IIRC were very difficult to beat towards the end of his reign, even partway through I remember us being in touching distance in virtually every game. Teams had to work to beat us. Without looking up the scores I daresay in 2017 we'd have gotten a LBP for our 3 6N losses. I remember so many frustrating losses under Vern - Australia in the RWC, Australia in an AI, England at Murrayfield and when you're within a score all it takes is a moment of magic and you've won the game. That is exactly how world class players like Hogg fit into a team. But under Toony we're consistently capitulating, leaking multiple weak scores and are ultimately dependent on MULTIPLE moments of magic to claw back the 2 or 3 scores we've conceded at any point in the game.

I just cannot understand what he is trying to do at all.

On the topi of Hogg winning us games it's also worth noting back in those days attackers used to be able to run through Hogg like he was a bit of wet paper tissue. He was an absolutely piss poor defender. So it works both ways.

2017 we got hosed by England and a LBP v France. We won the other 3.

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:

OptimisticJock wrote:

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:Bhatti
McInally
Nel
R Gray
Gilchrist
Skinner
Ritchie
Ashe

G Horne
Russell
Kinghorn
Johnson
Dunbar
Seymour
Graham

Brown
Dell
Fagerson
J Gray
Graham
Price
P Horne
McGuigan

It's very, very hard to select anyone who played in that game. A message needs to be sent to the players IMO. Redeeming yourself every third game for the previous couple of abysmal performances isn't acceptable.

Toony sounded and looked as dismayed, upset and angry as I've ever seen him in that post match interview. I wouldn't be surprised if there were wholesale changes.

Kinghorn/Graham a typo?

I'd have JJ over Dunbar and Laidlaw on bench in case somebody wants to come up with a plan B at some point. Hastings for McGuigan

Nope. Kinghorn offers little line breaking ability from 15 on the counter at test level. Needs a lot of work.

I think my memory of Saturday is failing me massively, but wasn't he basically our only player making breaks? I do think there's something to him on the wing though, I see him as a 15 but he seems to have been much better for Scotland out on the wing. I wouldn't put Graham at fullback, but I've always thought Maitland was a better 15 anyway so wouldn't be against 11. BK 14. DG 15. SM

Big D wrote:2017 we got hosed by England and a LBP v France. We won the other 3.

2016 then.

Or stick Kinghorn at 13. They won't be expecting that!

Mikey Brown wrote:

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:

OptimisticJock wrote: Kinghorn/Graham a typo?

I'd have JJ over Dunbar and Laidlaw on bench in case somebody wants to come up with a plan B at some point. Hastings for McGuigan

Nope. Kinghorn offers little line breaking ability from 15 on the counter at test level. Needs a lot of work.

I think my memory of Saturday is failing me massively, but wasn't he basically our only player making breaks? I do think there's something to him on the wing though, I see him as a 15 but he seems to have been much better for Scotland out on the wing. I wouldn't put Graham at fullback, but I've always thought Maitland was a better 15 anyway so wouldn't be against 11. BK 14. DG 15. SM

Oh he makes some breaks alright but from deep on the counter he slows down before contact and often intentionally takes contact. So many of our tries come from a back hitting the line at pace on the counter & making a break or half break with a support runner in tow.

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:
Nope. Kinghorn offers little line breaking ability from 15 on the counter at test level. Needs a lot of work.

I think my memory of Saturday is failing me massively, but wasn't he basically our only player making breaks? I do think there's something to him on the wing though, I see him as a 15 but he seems to have been much better for Scotland out on the wing. I wouldn't put Graham at fullback, but I've always thought Maitland was a better 15 anyway so wouldn't be against 11. BK 14. DG 15. SM

Oh he makes some breaks alright but from deep on the counter he slows down before contact and often intentionally takes contact. So many of our tries come from a back hitting the line at pace on the counter & making a break or half break with a support runner in tow.

One of my big issues with Kinghorn is he either doesnt look or just decides contacts the best option, cant afforda winger or a full back that wont pass

Against Italy, Ireland france and in the HEC he is doing it. He really needs to work on it if he wants to be top class one day.

whatisthejava wrote:

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:
I think my memory of Saturday is failing me massively, but wasn't he basically our only player making breaks? I do think there's something to him on the wing though, I see him as a 15 but he seems to have been much better for Scotland out on the wing. I wouldn't put Graham at fullback, but I've always thought Maitland was a better 15 anyway so wouldn't be against 11. BK 14. DG 15. SM

Oh he makes some breaks alright but from deep on the counter he slows down before contact and often intentionally takes contact. So many of our tries come from a back hitting the line at pace on the counter & making a break or half break with a support runner in tow.

One of my big issues with Kinghorn is he either doesnt look or just decides contacts the best option, cant afforda winger or a full back that wont pass

Against Italy, Ireland france and in the HEC he is doing it. He really needs to work on it if he wants to be top class one day.

They all did it against France but agree that Kinghorn does it consistently. You could argue he's not familiar with being in that position cause I really don't think he breaks the line at pace on the counter at all.